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Posted By: Bruf Looking for a new AV receiver - HDMI question - 06/30/08 06:29 AM
Hi,

I'm a happy owner of M60s, VP150, QS8s and EP500. My current AV receiver is a Yamaha RX-V659, which is a great receiver imo but it lacks HDMI inputs and thus the ability of decoding/playing PCM and lossless audio tracks from my blu-ray discs. Hooked up to my AVR are :

- PS3 (Video -> HDMI to TV -- Audio -> Toslink to AVR)
- Xbox 360 (Video -> HDMI to TV -- Audio -> Toslink to AVR)
- Explorer 4250HD (Video -> Component to AVR -- Audio -> Digital Coax to AVR)
- MacBook Pro (Video -> DVI/HDMI to TV -- Audio -> Toslink to AVR)

I would like to buy a new AVR with HDMI 1.3a inputs so that I only use the HDMI interface for both video & audio, at least for the PS3 and the Xbox 360. The PS3 is my main media player, and I've read from previous threads here that I'm golden with PCM output via HDMI.

My main concern is picture quality degradation using the AVR between my player and my HDTV. I don't want/need any of the video processing features from pricey AVRs, I only want an AVR with good power/features (at least on par with my RX-V659) that will be able to pass the HDMI video signal flawlessly to the TV. I've read on the Yamaha RX-V663 not being able to pass "blacker-than-black" signal, something like that. I know there's a bunch of issues involving HDMI, so I'm looking for a simple way to enjoy lossless/PCM audio without any degradation of my video signal.

I wonder if it's possible to turn off all the video processing features of an HDMI AVR such as the new 663/863 Yamaha or Onkyo 606. My Sony LCD does support HDMI 1.3a features and already do a great job all by itself so I just want the audio part to be as great as the picture you see? ;\)

It's funny because all the 2008 entry-level AVRs only do HDMI switching, which is the only thing I need (well I think), but they don't offer the same level of performance, power and features as my Yamaha RX-V659.

Any help, personal experience and tips would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Bruno
What kind of price range are you trying to stick to?

I recommend the denon 3808 from 6ave.com for $1100 if you can swing it. You can disable video processing alltogether.
I could be mistaken, but I think the Yammy 663's "blacker than black" issue is really a deep color issue. If this is the case, then (just like communism) it is a red-herring. For deep color to make any difference to your set-up, each the source material, the player (DVD or STB), the receiver, the cable and the monitor all have to be deep color compatible. Since most monitors are not deep color capable, and no source material yet exists in deep color, this shouldn't be an issue.

I have only heard great things about the 663. 2 HDMI 1.3a inputs (1 out), "up conversion" (in native fomat) to HDMI (providing a single umbilical solution to the monitor for all sources) all the current decoders, plenty of power, etc. - all make it fairly future proof.

I'll do a bit more research on this video issue, but I am in the middle of putting together another HT for a buddy and was going with the 663 after some research. I'll let you know what I find out.
 Originally Posted By: Bruf
Hi,

I'm a happy owner of M60s, VP150, QS8s and EP500. My current AV receiver is a Yamaha RX-V659, which is a great receiver imo but it lacks HDMI inputs and thus the ability of decoding/playing PCM and lossless audio tracks from my blu-ray discs. Hooked up to my AVR are :

- PS3 (Video -> HDMI to TV -- Audio -> Toslink to AVR)
- Xbox 360 (Video -> HDMI to TV -- Audio -> Toslink to AVR)
- Explorer 4250HD (Video -> Component to AVR -- Audio -> Digital Coax to AVR)
- MacBook Pro (Video -> DVI/HDMI to TV -- Audio -> Toslink to AVR)

I would like to buy a new AVR with HDMI 1.3a inputs so that I only use the HDMI interface for both video & audio, at least for the PS3 and the Xbox 360. The PS3 is my main media player, and I've read from previous threads here that I'm golden with PCM output via HDMI.

My main concern is picture quality degradation using the AVR between my player and my HDTV. I don't want/need any of the video processing features from pricey AVRs, I only want an AVR with good power/features (at least on par with my RX-V659) that will be able to pass the HDMI video signal flawlessly to the TV. I've read on the Yamaha RX-V663 not being able to pass "blacker-than-black" signal, something like that. I know there's a bunch of issues involving HDMI, so I'm looking for a simple way to enjoy lossless/PCM audio without any degradation of my video signal.

I wonder if it's possible to turn off all the video processing features of an HDMI AVR such as the new 663/863 Yamaha or Onkyo 606. My Sony LCD does support HDMI 1.3a features and already do a great job all by itself so I just want the audio part to be as great as the picture you see? ;\)

It's funny because all the 2008 entry-level AVRs only do HDMI switching, which is the only thing I need (well I think), but they don't offer the same level of performance, power and features as my Yamaha RX-V659.

Any help, personal experience and tips would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Bruno



Bruno,
I actually liked Marantz SR8002 because it sound *slightly* better than Denon 3808. It also did *nothing* with the video except that it could convert 480I to P. However, it lacks the ability to be upgraded by the end user. So I traded it in for the 3808.

My recommendation for the cable STB is to use component. The difference in picture quality between component and HDMI is negligible. The headaches of HDMI sync'ing between STB's and AVRs are quite quite quite painful. I've had issues with Pioneer Elite82 + Cox cable. I've had issues with PS3-Marantz-Sony XBR, I've had issues Cablevision and Marantz, and I've had issues with TWC and Marantz/Denon. So just avoid it if at all possible.

For PS3, in order to enjoy the internal decoding of all lossless codes, you have to use HDMI.

With Denon, you can turn off video upscaling and processing on a per input basis.
hmmm... I have cox cable hooked up to my 3808 thru a motorolla DVR box via HDMI and have no issues whatsoever.

What problems have you had?
Bruno, the first point is that it isn't correct that a basic receiver with just HDMI "switching" would do what you want. Those receivers just combine two or more HDMI inputs and allow one to be selected for the HDMI cable for the video to the TV. They don't have processing for audio through HDMI and a separate cable for audio(not carrying the new audio formats)would be necessary.

If you want to change your receiver because of HDMI, either the Onkyo 606 or Yamaha 663 should meet your needs. From research on another recent question I'm aware that the 606 doesn't change the video signal that is input on HDMI(e.g., 720p in, 720p out).
 Originally Posted By: terzaghi
hmmm... I have cox cable hooked up to my 3808 thru a motorolla DVR box via HDMI and have no issues whatsoever.

What problems have you had?


For Cox/Pioneer, it was HDCP issues. At random times, on power up, you get the dreaded..."does not support copy protection..." message. For Marantz/Denon and TWC, it was handshaking issues. So going from SD to HD often results in volume going in and out.
Hi, thanks all for your replies!

I went to a couple of stores this week-end and took a look at both the Yamaha 663/6160 and the Onkyo 606. Onkyo is so expensive in Canada, I can't believe it. The best price I got was 599$, while amazon.com is selling it for 399$. Oh well.

I decided to give the Yammy HTR-6160 a shot, I got it for 449$ at BB. With the 30-day money-back policy, I'll make my own mind on the BTB issue, I don't think it'll make a difference at all. It's unfortunate that the Pioneer 1018 and the Denon 1909 aren't available yet, both sport more HDMI inputs which is not a bad thing in this HD world. ;\)

My TV (Bravia KDL-46W3000) does support HDMI 1.3a and Deep Color, but as Capn_Pickard mentioned there's no content right now (besides maybe HD camcorders) that supports this feature so it's not the end of the world.

Holiday's over but I'll definitely try some lossless audio movies in the next few days once everything is hooked up. ;\)

Thanks all for your help!

glad you found something that you liked! In the end, that is all that really matters!
Exactly!

I was looking for an affordable but capable AVR, < 500$ is a sweat spot for me. I'd rather pay 500$ now and change it in a couple of years if it makes sense (new codec, HDMI 1.x, etc.). As long as I'll have 6/8 Ohms speakers I don't really need anything more than that.
Let us know about the BTB issues. I'm curious about this as well.
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