So I was recently robbed, in which my M60's, VP100, M2 (only 1 ), and HSU VTF-3 was taken. Of course a lot more was taken but we'll keep this to the speakers!

So now I'm looking at replacing all this stuff. I'm on the fence though on what I should do. Go with the M60 again, QS4 in the rear, and a VP150 for center. Or drop down to M22's. Take the savings and go 7.1 with 4x QS4s, and VP150. I'm just worried I'll be disappointed with the M22s compared to my M60s, though I've read there very similar when run with a good sub.

Then for the sub I'm kinda screwed. I was absolutely in love with my VTF-3 and want a HSU again without a doubt. Unfortunately they've ended dealers so I can't get it locally anymore. Shipping is now very expensive for HSU to Canada. I know Axiom makes great subs, anyone have experience comparing to a VTF-3?

First: damn! for the robbery. Always a major, major bummer.

My only comment would be that, of all the changes I have done last year (everything was changed one piece at a time), the lowest "return on investment" was going from 5.1 to 7.1. If money is no object (like in my case), then it does improve a bit over 5.1; but I would not sacrifice (compromise) on any other piece just to go 7.1.

Sorry to hear about the robbery.

On the M60 vs M22, when I did a direct a/b comparison of the M60 vs M22 + sub, I noticed very little difference besides the better bass extension you get with a sub. I understand that there is a difference once you put both in a larger room. I did my listening in a 20x12x8 foot room.

First off, I'm very sorry for your loss.

I own the Outlaw LFM-1 EX sub and I love it. I was considering the VTF-3, but went with the Outlaw because it was cheaper and it has a down firing woofer, which works well with my little one and small dogs. Both subs are designed by Dr. Hsu. You might want to check it out at Outlaw Audio . The LFM-1 EX retails for $599 (not including shipping) and is available only through Outlaw's website. Even with shipping, the LFM-1 EX was cheaper than the VTF-3. Good luck.

Thanks for the info guys. This should help me out. Outlaw is looking like a decent alternative, thanks for that.

I can relate, sort of, I recently had my cell phone stolen and then subsequent fraudulent charges to my credit card, not sure how they relate but it all happened within a week of each other.

James have you considered getting the EP350V3, it is a very strong sub for the money. Also the SVS PB12-NSD is a great sub in the $500-$1000 sub category. The SVS can be bought from Sonicboom Audio for those of us in Canada. I have heard the STF3 and I would say both, the AXiom and SVS, are near or on par with the STF3, but I am just going by memory as the STF was heard in different listening sessions as was the PB12 and the EP350.

I would say the M22/sub has a certain amount of exacting detail the M60's do not, however I would say the M22/sub offers up a more dry sound and the M60s have a certain warmth to their sound, I suspect this is from a less forward presentation on the M60s. The upper mids and highs are more pronounced on the M22s, IMO.

Interesting view Jason, thanks. I was just on the sonicboom site looking at the SVS stuff. Seems electronicsforless.ca is affiliated and they have some old stock on VTF-3 subs. It's a very good deal so I may just jump on that in the end. Looks like I'll save quite a bit going with the M22s over the M60s as well. At least with Axiom I know I can return the M22s for the M60s if need be. Were pretty luck to have that option with Axiom!

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, the M22's set-up with a good sub may surprise you.

As you say try the M22s, they are a very surprising speaker for the money, I love mine, if you find they don't quite do it for you then you get that free return for the upgrade so no money lost. Have you thought about going with the M80s? They are right in between the M60s warmth and the precision of the M22s, best of both worlds, IMO, although the M82(M60/M22 combo) had a very special sound to it that I really liked but due to kids in the area I opted for the one piece M80.

I suppose I could consider the M80s if the M22s don't work out. All depends on the insurance settlement and what not. I'm for sure going up a class on the receiver and 2" on the TV so that might eat into the budget a little!

James:
Being robbed sucks. I've never been through it, so I don't envy you.

If you can swing it financially, I would go for the 60s again or maybe even the 80s. I've never tried 7.1, but haven't heard enough positive posts to attempt it.

I think if I dropped "down" a level in my speakers, they would always be a reminder of what was taken from me. If you upgrade, you'll at least have that small consolation when all is said and done...

I would also stick with 5.1 if it means compromising another piece of equipment. While 7.1 helps with some things I actually turn it off at times. Certain 5.1 video games like “Elder Scrolls: Oblivion” don’t pan smoothly across the back in my room when Dolby PLIIx is engaged.

Also I think that the M22 +sub is a fantastic choice especially if you can use the upgrade program should you prefer how your M60s sounded. I just recently added a pair of M22 to my system and think they are bang for your buck the best Axiom speaker I have, and I’m a happy M80 owner.

James, sorry to hear of the robbery, but I've had to handle many of those cases down here and it seems to increasingly be the way of the world. Hopefully insurance will cover the monetary loss.

I use M22s with the EP500 and think that the M22s with a good sub would also serve you in an excellent manner in all but the biggest of rooms.

bummer...

I had M22's and loved them. Then I got some M60's and there is simply no going back. The M22's a terrific, but the M60's just do everything the M22's do, just bigger and better.

I also played with 7.1 for a short while, using a pair of M2's as the rear. Never really got much bang for my buck with 7.1. The QS surrounds are just do darn good at their job, you really don't need another pair of speakers "filling in". I ended up putting the M2's in my computer room and love them in that setting.

So...bottom line, IMHO, stick with 5.1 and M60's.

Good luck!

I would agree to stick with towers and not go to bookshelves.

One comment that I will throw in is to make sure that you beef up your security so that once you replace your gear and the other stuff lost in the house that it doesn't happen again. I remember a number of years ago I had a Nissan 280ZX with T-Tops and someone smashed my windows and took the T-Tops. I made the mistake of replacing the T-Tops and waiting for the weekend to get an alarm installed. The second set of T-Tops was stolen before the weekend.

do you have renters/ home owners insurance?

Yes I have insurance, and yes I'm beefing up the security. Trying to get the house safer before I replace anything. So alarm is in, going to work on the deadbolt on my door. Some exterior lighting, maybe a fence to the back yard etc.

Hard to explain, but when looking at the scenario they really had it perfect to clean me out.

+1

I actually still have my M22s, paired with my SVS sub in my basement. They're great as always. But the M60s provide that extra bit of fullness to everything that I always felt I was missing with the M22s. The M60s blend wonderfully with my Outlaw EX sub.

Frankly, I consider the M60 to be such a slam-dunk of a speaker--as someone who loves the Axiom sound, but also likes "warmer" sounding speakers, the M60 is perfect for me, as it provides all of the Axiom attributes that I have grown accustomed to, but with some warmth to the sound as well. I'll give up a bit of the forwardness of my M22s for the all-around package of the M60s.

Mind you, I also have M3s up in my office (just 2-channel), and man are those perfect for that application. Whether playing a DVD, or music, or whatever else, the M3s are so good on their own, and provide ample bass. Just a great speaker.

Sorry to hear about your troubles James.

Hey guys, so I'm going for the 60's. Now I just picked up a Pioneer VSX-01 which is 7.1. I've decided to skip the 7.1 though thanks to the advice here. I do see though in the manual that I can use the surround back channel to bi-wire my fronts.

Is there a decent benefit if I do this? I'll either bi-wire the M60's or run a Zone 2 speaker setup with this SB channel.

I doubt that there will be any disernable benifit.

Short answer = Bi-Wiring does absolutely nothing for your audio quality. Don't waste your money on the extra wire.

The extra inputs are just there to satisfy market demand for a misunderstood technique and for those who try to bi-amp. Even 99/100 people who Bi-Amp their speakers are not doing it correctly and gaining absolutely no benefit. What you are describing by using the extra outputs would still not be considered, true, bi-amping.

Good question though, we all had it in our heads at one time or another.

How big is your room? You may find 7.1 does do something for larger rooms or weird seating arrangements like I have.

The others have answered the Biwire issue.

James, you're actually referring to a so-called "bi-amping" feature that some receivers advertise. The Pioneer is a fine unit, but that feature does nothing of value. True bi-amping requires two separate amplifiers, as the term implies, and receivers have only one, distributing its power through several channels of output transistors. Output transistors act as valves to add power from the one main power supply section present to the small input voltages to make them strong enough to drive the speaker to a loud level; they have no power of their own. The power supply section has a limited capacity and distributing it to a speaker through two sets of output transistors(one previously not connected to a speaker)rather than one can't double the available power, as some imagine, or increase it in any degree. Wire your speakers in the usual way; no extra power capacity is available through that feature.

What you could do is wire up a pair of M22s atop the 60s to get yourself M82s!

Thanks for the clarity guys, found similar opinions when I figured out a decent search method.

So I got my kit yesterday, M60/VP150/QS8. This replaces my M60/VP100/M2 setup. Went from a Marantz 4500 to a Pioneer VSX-01THX as well. Sticking with a HSU-VTF3, so far so good! Love the sound, much better surround performance with the QS8 over the M2, but it could be the receiver. Overall I'm glad I spent the extra and stuck with the M60s.

Now I just need to get something to listen too! My HTPC with all my music was taken. All I have is NHL09 on PS3, which is nice...but crowd noise gets old!

Glad you are enjoying the new system. The QS series is the jewel of the Axiom line up, they really are the best surround speaker out there,IMO. They can make any system feel more enveloping. Now get out there and purchase some new music so we can have a more thorough review of the new system.

That reminds me... I should buy a backup drive for my digital music and photos!

JamesM, enjoy your new system.

Fair warning, this post is ridiculously off topic.

David - I'd suggest you save the money on a backup drive and try Carbonite online backup. I just signed up for it and have to say it is a heck of a lot cheaper and easier than running a backup routine every night (or when you remember) to a USB drive... (I've been doing that for ages too)

Inevitably, those backups stop running for some reason or another or don't keep a copy of the file I need, etc... On the other hand, Carbonite runs automatically and updates itself as files change without you ever tinkering with it.

Two things finally pushed me over the edge to go to a different solution than my external drives: 1) I had a growing collection of music on my computer that would be more and more painful to use, and 2) my family pictures and videos are now all digital and only stored on my hard drive. Even though I was backing them up to a second disk, a fire/theft, etc. would wipe me out completely. Yuck.

If you're interested, PM me your e-mail address (David or anyone else who wants to try it) as they have a referral program that lets me send you a coupon for 2 months free (as opposed to one-month free that you get by default). Fair disclosure, I get free months too if you sign up, but that's not why I'm recommending it. I just wish I would have done this a long time ago as it would have saved me a lot of money in external hard drives (I have about 2TB worth of them now).

For less than $5/month I could have accomplished the same thing with Carbonite... Oh, and did I mention they offer unlimited backup for this price? Pretty amazing.

Jason

Two caveats:

1) The initial backup is slow... I had about 100GB that I marked for backup initially and it took 15 days to upload - I imagine they purposely limit bandwidth to help keep their costs in line. Once that was done though, it now updates in only a minute or two each day.

2) It only backs up internal hard drives - not USB drives - another way they control their exposure on unlimited backups. If you happen to have eSata external drives, I've found it will back those up. Having said that, they don't limit how many internal drives you can back up. I have 4, and while I don't have them all full, it let me pick and choose from any of them.

Just to add another caveat to your list if the initial upload took 15 days, it will take that or longer to recover your data. I had a customer who used it and was out of commision for 2 weeks waiting to get his data back. Not saying it shouldn't be used but an extra back-up to a local device as well couldn't hurt.

Jake

Hey Jake, thanks for the tip. So far I found that my download speeds (on limited files recoveries) were many times faster than when I wanted to upload, but I admittedly have only done this for a few files.

I figured this was just a function of the fact that my DSL download speeds are 10x my upload speeds, but I'll have to test it more thoroughly given what you wrote. Thanks for the heads up.

Jason

PS: I currently do backup locally as well, but had been thinking about going solely to online backup... More to consider.

With the disk prices what they are, my online backups are for disaster recovery. All other files (for HDD failure) are duplicated on other disks. *IF* my condo burns down, then I'll access the online files. The way I see it, if my condo is not accessible, my online files are on the bottom of the list of things to worry about!

Good point Hansang. Though losing all of my pictures/videos/music on top of losing my home would definitely pour salt in the wound. I agree with the idea of doing both in-home and online backups.

For those interested - I ran a test this weekend to see what my recovery time would look like.

I have about 100GB online with Carbonite now and from the few tests I ran last night and today, it would take me about 7 days to fully recover it all to local disk after a disaster. It's not fast, but considering it's pictures/movies/etc., I'm willing to wait that long considering the low cost I pay for the service.

That wouldn't be nearly good enough for an enterprise solution, but fortunately that's not what I'm after here.

Jason