Hi all,
I'm currently looking for the best sub to suit my system for around $500.
My system:
Denon AVR 2309
Sony BR
Mains: Axiom M60
Center: M22
Surrounds: QS8
Room size: 20' x 15' x 10' ceiling (3000 cub ft)
The subs I'm considering are the SVS PB10-NSD for $429, and the HSU VTF-1 for $449. I haven't heard either one, but they both have reviews that indicate that they're very good for the money subs. I'd use about 75% for HT / 25% for music. Would like to consider Axiom, but their subs are beyond my budget. Any one with thoughts / experience with either of these subs (or any other recommendations) ? Thanks !!

This may be out of your range, but from the factory outlet you can get the new Axiom 350v3 for $680 total, free shipping. It is an unreal sub if you can save a bit more.

While staying within your budget might I suggest you give the Eliment Design A3 a look.

Not sure about US pricing, but the Paradigm DSP3200 would be around $550.00 CDN. Energy, PSB, and the Axiom 350 as noted (factory outlet)

Thanks for the reco's !

I can also recommend the Paradigm 3100 or 3200, as well as the Axiom EP350. I had the PB12-nsd and it was a great performer as well, IMO, it was a little stronger than the EP350. I don't think you would be disappointed running any of the subs mentioned by anyone on this forum.

That's what I'm thinking, too. Especially since I've had my M60's for about 5 years and haven't had a sub yet. Have also seen some good reviews on the MFW15, but it's a bit out of my price range.

Right now Outlaw is having a sale, you could get the LFM-1 EX for about $500. I think that should be considered as well, as it is a strong addition to my HT

That's a real good price for the Outlaw, $519 and shipping included.

I still don't understand why the Outlaw doesn't get more talk here... it's rated to 16Hz +/- 2dB while the 350 is +/- 3 dB to 28Hz. That's almost a full octave lower for the Outlaw, and it's cheaper to boot.

So, with all due acknowledgment to our hosts, how come SVS and HSU are commonly talked about here and compared to Axiom subs, but in this price range there is hardly ever any talk of the Outlaw? In comparing model, it seems the Outlaw goes quite a bit deeper than anything else in it's class. I know here's more to a sub than lowest output, but it's certainly a top feature .

Is there something deficient I'm missing regarding the Outlaw?

No, i don't think your missing anything and I too wonder why. If I were in the market I would certainly give the Outlaw a serious consideration. I also like the eD sub, they're a lot of sub for the money.

When my VTF 2 goes south one of my top choices will be one the eD subs. I might just have to look at one of the Outlaws too.

I agree with Mark and Rick. I think $519 for the Outlaw is a steal. Just make sure you don't mind completing your system with speakers from different manufacturers, and also, some people have an aversion to downward firing subs.

I know that in my small room, I don't need huge output, but "deep" is good! And, even without the current sale, two of them can be had pretty cheaply to even out response.

I was just looking through this article which includes the Outlaw sub.

Probably not. SVS and HSU have been distributed and talked about for a number of years. Its inertia.

I seem to remember that the outlaw sub is an oem from HSU.

What is the "turbo" on the HSU. Is it literally a powered fan to move more air?

Interesting. The Outlaw doesn't seem like an outstanding performer...kinda middle of the road. They said it was limited to 20Hz, yet the Outlaw site says 16Hz, +/-2dB which is pretty specific.

The article said the Outlaw was a prototype; I wonder if changes had been made since the article?

No, it's like the internet: A series of tubes!

Really, it extends the ports for lowered tuning and, I believe, more output as well.

... with little mice running in them, only for a sub they carry bass notes not messages.

Or was it tubes that extend the port lenght lowering the tuning of the sub?

$200 (US) seems a little excessive to lengthen the port, IMO. I remember seeing somewhere on the i'net(Youtube?), some kind of sub which used a fan to move more air, probably some kind of DIY.

There are plenty of fansubs on YouTube, it's true.

It could be more complicated than that. Generally you also want to increase cabinet volume as you lower tune, so maybe they found a way to do that.

There are two rotary subs that I know of, only one of which, the Thigpin, is still in produciton. I would love to hear this one in action as it is supposed to be in a category by itself.

I really enjoy my outlaw, it fills my 12x21x8 room quite nicely. I really don't understand why they don't get more reputation. It will definitely hit the lows as well. In Transformers and Kung Fu panda it hits notes that are barely audible but shake the door and windows.

Do you own an spl meter by chance? It would be nice to see a measured sweep to see how low it reaches in your room.

I do have one. How do I do a measured sweep? I have just the radioshack digital spl meter

actually where can I find the material to sweep it with is what I really meant there.

Also, the regular LFM-1 (non EX) is only $439 US inc shipping right now.

You can dl a test CD from RealTraps that goes to 10Hz.

There are probably a couple of ways to do this. One would be to find some recorded test tones that you could burn to cd to play while you measure and record manually. I have not done this, but I think a couple of other people here have.

The other way is to use a program called REW which has a tone generator built in and is able to automatically record sweeps it generates using an spl meter connected through the computer and receiver.

REW will initially be more difficult as there is some setup involved in connecting all the bits and a little bit of a learning curve to calibrate everything. Once its all set up though, it is dead simple to run.

REW can be found here, The download link is in the sticky at the top of the forum.

OK so I got it all downloaded, but there may be a snag. I have a macbook as my only computer, and the help file states that I need to use a real input not a mic input for my readings. Is that a fact or have other people used the more simple input in order to read the measurements?

Hmm. The mac version is a little buggy from the posts I have seen.

You do need to use a line in input. It has to do with signal level. I think that the mike in does not boost the signal to line level, and REW needs this higher level to work properly.

Do you think that a front firing / front ported sub would be more musical that a down firing sub? It seems with PA systems a front firing sub is more musical than a horn loaded sub yet the horn loaded gives more thump.

Your knowledge gained from working with PA systems doesn't really apply in the small volume world of home theater. The thing that matters is the sub's location in the room and not so much the direction the woofer is firing.

From what I know of sub design, whether a sub is horn loaded, front firing or down firing, would not make it more or less 'musical' as long as the driver and cabinet are matched properly. Actually, I don't particularly like that term because it sound so much like mystical.

The actuall driver design will affect accuracy as much as cabinet design. If your driver is not linear, it will not sound as 'musical' as a more linear competitor, all else being equal.

The one exception to this is that sealed subs tend to produce more distortion, particularly when they are driven hard. Its hard to tell when distortion becomes audible though other than to say that we are much less sensitive to it at lower frequencies.

I called ED to see how much an unpainted MDF A2-300 would be. They said $300 !! I'll gladly provide the flat black paint and save the $50 off the reg price. I'm thinking this will be the best value, at that price.

ANd from what I have heard the A3 is a great little sub as well. I would love to hear one, especially compared to the Paradigm DSP3100, they are about the same price range.

I'm seriously thinking of one myself if and when my Hsu goes bad. I've read good things about the eD subs.

Ok I did some preliminary sweeps with REW. I have no idea if i'm doing it at all right. Results indicate....da da da DA...My room sucks. The signal travels something in the 30-35 dB range between 16 Hz and 70 Hz. I don't know how to save or post the graphs, if I figure those out I will post. Does it need to save as a jpeg?

Fred, we got a new member of the club!

To post a photo, it needs to be uploaded first to a site like Photobucket.com.

One sub you might want to look into is the Epik Valor

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/ValorCabinet.html

It did pretty well on craigsub sub's list.

Mark, what club would that be.....

ah gotcha. I'm really struggling here (not only with the posting of pictures) we put new carpet in our main room here, and I cannot for the life of me get my sub back in control. I feel that since the carpet I just can't find a happy medium, it doesn't blend anymore, it's enough to make a guy cry :*(

I thought the carpet would help things, and it has for the speakers. I'll see if I can get the graph up.

ok we may need to go one step back. How do I save the graphs in such a way as to put them on photobucket? They won't save as anything I recognize as a picture file

Those subs look like a pretty good deal Jamie. Epik is internet sale-based correct?

They look pretty interesting. BUT glad I didn't ask anything about them. It might start more bleeding heart posts!

Don't know; I've been curious about that particular sub for a while. Its small size, sealed cab., cheap and decent perf. numbers is very appealing. Too bad that there seems to be little information on the internet about the company and that particular sub.

Does that mean we have to change the secret handshake?

Don't worry Fred.
You will still be able to identify each other by the distinctive ring worn by the Knights of the Square Room.

Steve. If you look at the bottom left corner of the graph, where the x and y axis come together, there is a little button. If you click that, REW will save an image of the graph as and 800 x 600 .jpg file.

If you can't find it, I'll post a pic later.

Thanks! I was starting to panic there.

alright let's try this out

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww241/thefwam/subgraph.jpg

Thanks for the graph Steve. Is this a measurement of just the sub or the sub + mains?

Just the sub. it's normally crossed over at 80 Hz but i just fed the signal directly into the sub. So i suppose it's not as bad as it could be. Looks like I may need to run audyssey again to get those lower freqs raised a bit. the carpet has changed everything. Thoughts anyone?

HAY - how do you get the picture to post in the forum as opposed to the line?

Should I include the mains?

Usually the process in 'tuning' the room is to start with the sub by itself The idea is to see a response that is rougly in line with the curve shown by the blue line in your graph.

Once you are happy with the sub, then look at and work on the integration between the sub and mains.

For looking at a sub response to see what it really does vs. the marketing specs, just the sub is fine.

I would engage the crossover and measure the sub again. It will show give you a better picture of the both the sub's and the room's response.

By the way, if you want to adjust the scale of the x and y axis, there is a button on the top right of the rew window that lets you do that.

Edit: is that a 10 or 12" sub?

Another thing you can do to see how the sub response varies in the room is to do the sub crawl and put the mic where the sub sounds best to you and see how that measures. That may give you a target to aim towards for your primary listening positions.

... or if you want to get totally geeky like me, you can start measureing in a grid pattern over a larger part of your room.

12" sub. I may have to do the crawl again...when I put the sub where I sit and moved around the room I couldn't hear the sub anywhere. I tell ya, i'm all out of sorts right now. I think the volume may have been too low. The carpet's biggest change seems to be just attenuating those lower freqs quite a bit, so it's way out of wack when the higher freqs (right around 80 Hz) come into play.

Carpeting isn't nearly thick enough to absorb anything as low as the sub produces. From your graph it sure looks like the bass below 50Hz has gone missing. With a decent sealed 12" you sould get good extension down to 30Hz or below.

it's ported, well dual ported, but one of the ports is plugged (it's part of the design i swear!). it's also downward firing if that makes a difference. how can I recover my lost frequencies?

Do you sit in the middle of your room?

I sit prtty much in the middle, with the sub directly to my left

The middle of the room is a no no. It is full of nulls. Try moving your seating by a couple of feet. also try corner loading it.

It had been up in the corner but wife wanted to try it as a side table since it has such a nice top. that could explain it, i used to have the loveseat along the wall and the longer couch out in the middle. Now that the long couch is ont he wall it pushed teh sub back far enough. Thanks Rick!

Let us know how it sounds after the change.

That might explain it. The corner gives you quite a bit of low end gain. Is it also out from the wall in its current position?

Not very far. Maybe 8-10 inches or so. When it was in the front it was probably more like 6-7 inches from the wall. When it was where my couch is in the dead middle of the room I couldn't hear anything anywhere in that place. It is all coming together.

Steve -

Not to rain on the parade, but that response graph gives a pretty poor impression of the sub you're using (not just the room). I missed which Outlaw it was, just saw that it's a 12" sub. Maybe it is Audyssey working a number on the response as well, but the low frequency response from 40 Hz and down is going to be very hard to feel based on that graph. Almost makes me thing something is wrong with the measurement given your description of feeling the low bass in movies like Kung Fu Panda.

It looks like you're good in the 50-90 Hz range, but anything below that is really at such a low volume in those graphs that I doubt you'd feel most of the LFE in movies.

I'd definitely play with room placement if that is a true depiction of the response in the current position.

Jason

By the way, to place an image directly into your post, you use the third button from the left instead of the "link" button that you used. After clicking that button, just paste the link into the popup window and it will show up directly in your post.

Jason

I hadn't thought of that. All processing should be off when first measuring the sub.

Yes, in support of that idea, I give you this example.

Jason

I am a PSB fan, but in A/B comparisons I found the B&W Sub of a similar price much better than the PSB sub. The B&W reached down further and really kicked harder than the PSB - and it was slightly cheaper. Music made the comparison much easier, but HT showed a difference as well. Let me know if you want more info on these two.

I really normally have some great low response. I think the placement (hopefully) has a good amount to do with it, it was the recent placement which threw everything out of wack. I'll get new measurements once it's up there.

I'll double check on audyssey. I think i turned off the EQing effects of audyssey and just left the speaker distances intact.

[img][/img]

That was the first shot from simply moving the bugger to the corner. As you can see that's a pretty significant improvement, and a lot more indicative of what i feel during movies.

If only i could get down to the 10-15 Hz range, THEN i'd be in business!

After seeing Jason's new graphs, I'm thinking a Behringer may/should be in my future. Do I need to get a separate microphone with it?

That looks a lot better. It looks like the sub only reaches down to the mid 20s though.

It does indeed. it beats the pants off of 50 Hz though! All just with placement, now I just need to see if there's anything else I can do to tame it a bit and fix the peaks and valleys

That looks a whole lot better Steve. One thing to try is changing variable tuning on the sub. You can also get different results just by moving it a few inches. Did you move your seating position from the middle of the room? You do not want to be seated right in the middle.

I did move my seat up a bit, enough to get back into a good spot I think, because re-running the sweeps was almost identical to how it was from quite a bit closer to the sub. I have the tuning on "max extension," the other option being "max output." since i have my sub turned up to maybe 2 or 3 on the dial I decided output wasn't the priority

I would still try max output just to see if there was an improvement or not. What the heck the price is right ..........free.

You've got a point there. If I'm only hitting 25 Hz anyway, which is what Max output lists as the frequency it hits anyway. I'll try that too.

I would.

Anyone try the SubDude or GRAMMA from Auralex for their subs?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Auralex

They are suppose to work really well if you are on wood floors.

I just use the spikes that come with the speakers. I did use their MoPads to get my center channel off of the entertainment center.

I ordered one for my sub on a hardwood floor. Last thing I want is boominess that will have my wife take my head off! Maybe I should have gotten the MoPads for the center. It will be on a glass shelf of an entertainment center.

Alright gents, I have my BFD. I didn't have a chance to mess with it too much. I actually spent all the time I had this morning programming filters, but not into any presets, so it was clearing them every time. but now I figured it out. Once I do set a preset, and then set filters in said preset, does it apply the changes as soon as they are saved? or do I need to do something else to take it out to "play" mode?

I have consulted google, the manual and as many websites as I can find and that one detail eludes me, as did turning to BFD to a preset in the first place. The manual is like reading egyptian, and the majority of sites and FAQ's i could find apparently didn't include my questions as "frequently asked"

The best place to read up on the BFD is on the BFD forum at hometheatershack.com. When you power on the bfd it will automatically load the last filter set you had loaded.

The top right button on the bfd is labeled in/out. this is used to turn filtering on (light on) and off. If you want to monitor the input side of bfd rather than the output, you press and hold the button for a few seconds until the indicator light flashes. This bypasses the filters and shows your input levels on the leds on the left hand side.

The input monitoring is used to set your input signal level for the bfd. The recommendation was to set the input signal so that the orange LED (-3db from clipping) barely lights on the most bass heavy material. I used the LOTR Bridge of Kazad Dhum scene to set my levels. I actually backed off one from where the orange light came on. I think that put my subwoofer signal at +4 or 5 on the receiver.

+1 to Fred's advice. Also, keep in mind the BFD will add 3-4db to the original signal even with no filters programmed.

Hey Steve, haven't checked on this thread for a bit but your last posted graph looks TONS better. Amazing what a change of position will do for you.

Good luck with the BFD to finish out the tuning. The guys above gave you the advice you need.

Jason

EUREKA!

It was a little rocky for a while, but I consider this graph a huge accomplishment! The learning curve is tough, but worth it now. In my room (especially) i think this sub will probably never do 16hz +/- 3 dB. Maybe that is a somewhat phony stat. I'm ecstatic that I could get down to 20 hz so well though!

Alright I tamed that null right after 80 a bit, because it was bugging me. My XO is at 80 Hz so it should not mess too much, but it bothered me. Thanks all for your help and patience!

Nice job, congrats. How does it sound?

Much improved! the down lows are much better, and the rest are much better. I actually haven't watched very much since that, but I will report back.

I don't want to sound like a newb, but I guess I am... What is being used to generate those plots?

Stephen King.

I use a program called Room Equalization Wizard, which can be found, as well as much helpful information here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/wizardhelp/help_en-GB/html/index.html

then the use of a SPL meter from Radioshack is what collects the information.

By the way, welcome neon! and let me know if you have any other questions I can answer in regards to REW. I've been slaving over it for a few weeks now and feel like I have a decent grip on it.

REW is a big time suck and way too much fun. I want a GOOD mic just to plot out the rest of the frequencies for no other reason than I CAN.

Ah, I had seen the mentions of REW and also seen people posting these plot images. Just didn't put those two together.

I didn't know about the BFD until yesterday either. When I read about it I figured it would be a piece of equipment that would cost as much a sub itself. But even the newer model costs the same as my piece of junk sub I bought 15 years ago.

I've still got other things to do and buy before I get to this point, but I'm filing this information away in the back of my head.

You'll get there...I know I did. It is nice that it isn't too hard on the wallet to purchase it. I have the BFD 1124 for the record. Some out there are that much. The Velodyne SMS-1 is, and apparently it's great feature is realtime graphs, but the popular concensus seems to be that the BFD is more customizable and powerful. You just have to run a sweep, adjust, run again, etc.

Jay-

Agreed. My wife doesn't get it, but it's so much fun to see the curves change. The biggest thing holding me back from buying a new mic is that now I only have one input left which means I would have to buy another BFD to do the mains.

All BFDs should be come with a warning

"Warning: you may become so obsessed with flattening your room response curves with this device that you forget to listen when you are done tweaking."

Jason

Honestly, now that I have it in the range, now I have the urge to go back and make it smoother. must....resist....

Is anyone else using MoPads? While I was ordering things I figured I'd get a set.

I don't think I can A/B quick enough to judge with my own ears, but when re-running the auto setup for my receiver after adding the QS8s today it now detects my center as "large", but without the MoPads it was "small". Actually I'm not even using the full MoPad, just the 4-degree wedge (I'd have to adjust the shelf height to keep the center from blocking the IR receiver on my TV and I just wanted to throw them in quickly). I instead put the full foam blocks under my Alesis, near field, studio monitors in my bedroom studio. They seem to produce more bass and are generally more clear than I ever remember.

Of course this all could be placebo...

I have MoPADs under a pair of Mackie 824s in my edit suite. I definitely prefer to use them after doing some comparing. I've never tried them under any of my Axioms though....

For my setup, the MoPads definitely made a difference. When the center sat directly on my entertainment center, the cabinet would tend to vibrate and carry resonant frequencies that seemed to be amplified. With the MoPads, it was greatly reduced.

I'm sure other cheaper foam items would work, but I never tried them.

Wow, finally made my up my mind on the sub. Went w/ the SVS PB10-NSD. Finally received it, set it up, sounds really excellent in my media/game room w/the M60's imo. Me likey.... Thanks all for the input !!

Very good. Congrats and enjoy.

Holy crap, I HATE it when I stumble across another subwoofer webpage, they always make me rethink my Axiom choice.

Take for instance the Epik Conquest. 1000 watts of power pushing a single 18 inch driver down to a claimed 12 hz, for a couple hundred less than the Axiom EP600. Does it sound as good as the Axiom? I have no clue, but the propaganda write up on their site sure makes me wonder. Then there's the Element Design A7 - 900 beast... 1300 watts pushing twin 18 inch down firing drivers in a monsterous 435 pound package, Jesus Christ!!! And at $2200 bucks it is in direct competition with the new EP800, only it packs more than 50% more power... gosh how does a guy stay loyal???

Since I've never heard ANY of these subs its really hard to blindly part ways with so much money on any of them. I truely wish there was some huge Audio Mega-plex that had every sub you could ever dream of side by side for direct comparison so that you could really choose the right sub and get the most bang for your buck.

If I'm being honest I'd say that the ONLY reason I'm still stuck on getting the EP800 is because I truely prefer to keep my entire HT package under one manufacturer. The Element Design tower speakers didn't look to be even close to being in the same league as the Axiom M80's. And Epik doesn't make anything BUT subwoofers.

I'm not doubting that I'll truely love the EP800 when it FINALLY becomes available and I get it into my living room. I guess curiosity just get's the best of me sometimes.

Don't forget about the newer Hsu ULS-15 DualDrive with wireless capabilities.

There's definitely alot of choices out there, the sub market seems very competive and there appears to be an "arms race" going on by the looks of it.

Rick, I'm thinking the Quad Drive...........And re-doing my house wiring.

Quad drive? you may be doing some framing too!

Ed, if you do that I am going to be so nattyjealous! I've been reading up on those wireless gems for some time now.

I'd do it tomorrow but my old house wiring would say no dice.

Just get your namesake eD

The wife says Quad Drive or nothing.

I'm sure

You gotta get up here and re-do my wiring though.

Do I dare cross the cheddar curtain

No good could come from that.

Perhaps I'm too superficial, but those subs don't look to have the build quality, R&D, or quality components to truly compete with the Axiom. I don't have an Axiom sub, I use B&W, but there have always been garage sub companies for car and home audio. And all are not equal. For those subs to be priced in the Axiom range tells more that Axiom is well priced than the quality of those. Most of the subs you cite look like they could be built in your garage with better parts - (like non-Bash amps, and drivers with real magnets). Compare to something like a JL JL Parts or B&W B&W or other known sub entity. Some cost is just marketing and name recognition, but some of it is quality and R&D. $2,200 is not cheap, to me anyway, and I would be hesitant to drop that on a complete unknown. Axiom is not traditional, but clearly not an unknown. Not saying there are not better values, just that every multiple driver 1000 watt sub is not created equal. Heck, see the highly acclaimed Gotham and check the price for a true high end dual driver high watt sub: JL

The feedback on Epik subs is pretty good. They may not look purdy, but they sound good.

Once you get up in the $1000+ range, you start go get into a lot of options. For $1000 you can build a sub using a high quality 18" driver that will probably outperform most commercial subs.

The 13W7 driver used in the Gotham is above $600 retail. For less than that, you can pick up an amazing 18" driver.

I'm not saying that the EP800 does not offer good value, but there sure do seem to be a lot of good choices out there these days.

All true. I've made many sealed and ported sub enclosures for 10 - 12 inch drivers and I know getting deep tight bass does not require $3000. I guess it is the DIY in me that says some of these that look like they were built in a garage and have no greater tech than a good driver with a good amp should not cost so much. The JL, the B&W, the Axiom, appear to have been tuned and designed in ways that add value. there is a threshold cost where you should get more than a box, driver, and amp. You should get R&D, drivers selected for that box and that amp, etc. Just my opinion, no doubt about that part.

Well, any sub should give you more than that, and DIY is more than just slapping stuff together. Given the design software available, you selecting an amp and designing an enclosure with the characteristics you are looking for. Because there is already a crossover in the receiver, that design issue is taken out of the equation. Where DIY falls short is that most of us are not able to do proper real world evaluation of our creation and then tweek until you get the best possible match.

Where commercial subs offer the most value is in getting a lot of low end performance out of a small package. In the DIY world, the EP800 is considered a relatively small package.

Even there, it is getting easier to do this DIY with a large linear driver and an active crossover/eq box like the Behringer DCX2496.

I'm still reeling from the 435 pound Element Design A7. I mean that's four times as heavy as the just about anything else out there, what in the world did they do, build it out of pure lead? I've always associated a heavy sub with quality. When ever I've picked up a sub box that was light as a feather I automatically assume it's junk. So the curiosity as to why the A7 weighs as much as the 1000cc motorcycle sitting out in my garage is absolutely killing me! I may just be a big marketing ploy, but I'd love to know why it's so heavy.

As far as JL goes, I bought a sub box for my car a few years back (which got stollen before I even got a chance to hear it!), the JL CVS210RG-W6v2 Prowedge. Unfortunately I never got to know how sweet it sounded, but I remember as I was researching sub box's I really wished they would have had one with two 10 inch woofers to keep things tight, and one 12 or even 13 inch woofer in the middle to hit the lower notes.

I don't even know if that would be feasible, but I would have loved to have built a box like that to try the concept out!

And to think eD is only 30 minutes away.

Back several months ago, I looked in to the "Epik" sub line, especially since they seem to get pretty good reviews. The strange thing lately is that they seem to be in a constant state of "out-of-stock" on some models which has been going on for weeks. The other ironic thing is although their "Bash" amps, which are built by Indigo mfg. in Toronto, they no longer ship to Canada???

They did at one time but their shipping costs were WAY out of line.

Not sure why some of the American Audio co's haven't set up a distributorship in Canada, particularily in S. Ontario. I'm sure Hsu, Outlaw and the like would do fairly well here, and with a distribution centre, get away from the silly shipping costs they are charging.

I think it may have to do with low sales into the Canadian market. Hsu was sold through Accessories for less and they have since dropped Hsu and started up with SonicBoom and SVS. I wonder if it had to do with Hsu's willingness to still ship to Canada even though there was a distributor up here. I know it was about $50-$100 cheaper to buy direct from Hsu than to have bought from AFL. I know SVSound will not sell to Canada, they tell you that you have to purchase from Sonicboomaudio.