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Posted By: Listener Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 02:59 AM
I hope you guys can help me once again.
I finally got the ASM-2 SPL Meter. Got all speakers set to 75db.

Should I use the meter to test the sub as well? When I try, the sub does not come even close to that. Even if I turn the trim all the way up. I can get it to only about 55db or so.
Is the spl meter an appropriate device to test the sub? I never felt like it was really quite as loud as I would like. Also what is the "Weighting" switch on the meter? Thanks guys.

My setup is
w22s
w150
qs8s
ep350 v3
denon 2809ci
Posted By: St_PatGuy Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 03:07 AM
Yes, the SPL meter should be used to set the sub, as well. It sounds like something is wrong if the sub is only getting to 55db.

You want to set the meter to C weighting. It's how responsive the needle is. Set it to A and it jumps all over the place with quick readings. C slows it down so it's easier to read.

You might go through all the settings on the sub and in the receiver to see where the problem is.
Posted By: Listener Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 03:15 AM
Thanks. I have gone through all the settings many many times. I simply can not get it to play louder. At this point the only thing I can come up with is that it's the location of the sub. I will have to experiment once I get a long sub cable. Should I have the Response on Slow or Fast on the meter? I assume it's slow.
Posted By: St_PatGuy Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 03:22 AM
Set the response to slow. Try playing a test tone through the sub and walk around the room holding the meter and see how much it changes. If it does it may be placement. If not, maybe something is not right?
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 03:23 AM
What are your settings on the receiver for your sub. There will be a gain setting in which you can decrease or increase in your case the voltage from the receiver being sent to the sub which in turn will make the sub play louder.
Posted By: Listener Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 03:53 AM
Well once I changed the weighting to C that seems to have helped.
I can now get the sub to play at about 68db, but I have the volume on the sub at 50% and the gain on the receiver at +8. All the other speakers are around 0 on the receiver. While walking around with the spl meter things did not change much.

Also I noticed that when I played actual music vs the test tones the sub is also a bit louder.

In the past I have tried getting the sub a bit louder with and without audyssey on. It always comes down to having to have the volume and gain turned up pretty high. On a few occasions though the sub clipped during movie sequences with a lot of LFE. That is what prompter me to start thinking about an upgrade to the ep500. I would like to first make sure though that it's not something that I may be doing wrong.
Posted By: St_PatGuy Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 04:24 AM
Something doesn't sound right. You should be able to get that needle jumping with a moderate setting on the sub's gain.
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 10:23 AM
Are you using test tones or just the "white noise" sound from the receiver..... (which doesn't have much bass in it?).
Posted By: Listener Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 01:20 PM
 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Are you using test tones or just the "white noise" sound from the receiver..... (which doesn't have much bass in it?).


Good point. I'm using the static noise which the receiver outputs. I just got the Avia disk with actual test tones which I will try using tonight.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 03:14 PM
If the volume is at 50% adjust it upwards until you hit 75db on the metre.
Posted By: alan Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 04:41 PM
Hi Listener,

Always use the "C" weighting for measurements. The "A" weighting ignores deep bass response. And use the "pink noise" (NOT white noise) test signal rather than single-frequency tones from your Avia test disc or the AV receiver's Dolby test signal. Pink noise has equal energy per octave across the audible spectrum ("white" noise has equal energy per frequency, which means it exaggerates mid and treble response).

The Slow/Fast setting for your meter represents an averaging of sound levels on the Slow setting, but it takes a while and won't show you peaks. Use the fast setting to check peaks in sound levels, but the Slow setting for pink noise and test signals.

Your EP350 should not be clipping. You should not have to run the subwoofer level in the AV receiver more than a couple of dB above 0 dB. If you run the latter too high, you may overload the input of the EP350. So set the subwoofer output level in the AV receiver to about +3 dB max, and then use the EP350's volume control to reach a satisfactory sub level. Be sure to set Subwoofer "ON" in the receiver setup menu and all your speakers to "SMall", with an 80-Hz crossover. Turn the EP350 crossover control to max or Bypass, to remove its effects from the circuit.

I don't think much of Audyssey. It may help to set the overall speaker levels and distances, but turn off the auto-EQ, which with good speakers like Axioms, may degrade sound quality.

Regards,

Alan
Posted By: terzaghi Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/09/09 11:05 PM
Great info as usual Alan!
Posted By: Listener Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 12:50 AM
Thank you Alan.

I have done as you have instructed. All speakers are set to +-2. The sub is set to +3. I reset the avr to factory settings and did NOT run audyssey. I had to turn the volume on the subup 3/4 of the way up in order to get it to 75db... it is at 3 o'clock. It sounds pretty good actually. The scenes in HULK which used to clip no longer clip. For music I find that i have to turn the sub down to about 12 o'clock since it is a bit too boomy.I realize that most people leave the volume on the sub at about 9 o'clock , but it is just too quiet at that level.

One other thing I noticed. I ran a frequency sweep off of the avia disk. It seems to not get to 70db until about 50hz. Below that is is a bit too quiet. I also ran the rattle test and the sub certainly does rattle. Is this normal? Thanks again to everyone who has responded.
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 01:51 AM
Honestly I think Alan should read up on Audyssey, it is a totally different technology than past years setup routines in receivers, and blows Trinnov out of the water if you read the reviews by many. Speaking highly of the THX founder on other issues, but not this creation, is not fair. It made a HUGE difference for my room and made my Axiom great speakers sound even better, as it factors in the rooms characteristics in the time/space domain.

When I cycle between it off/on it is night and day better.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 02:17 AM
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Honestly I think Alan should read up on Audyssey, it is a totally different technology than past years setup routines in receivers, and blows Trinnov out of the water if you read the reviews by many. Speaking highly of the THX founder on other issues, but not this creation, is not fair. It made a HUGE difference for my room and made my Axiom great speakers sound even better, as it factors in the rooms characteristics in the time/space domain.


When I cycle between it off/on it is night and day better.


Axiom is not the only speaker manufacturer that does not recommend audyssey et al ;\) .

 Originally Posted By: jsalk
OK...here are a few randomly related thoughts.

Imagine this scenario...

We work very hard to turn out an absolutely gorgeous pair of speakers. The owner, wanting to get the best performance possible out of them, rushes out and purchases a Radio Shack SPL meter. He locates a table of calibration corrections on the internet and carefully makes measurements, applies the corrections and plots a graph. It looks terrible. He thought the speakers sounded great when they arrived, but the measurements indicate something is terribly amiss. He contacts us in panic. His speakers are certainly defective and he has the graphs to prove it.

"How do they sound?", I ask? "They sound fine," he responds.

If he had just avoided that Radio Shack purchase, he could blissfully enjoy his speakers. The problem isn't with his speakers. The problem is with his measurements. But at least on a temporary basis, it ruins his listening experience.

Unfortunately, this is a common occurrence and one we have had to deal with far more often than we would like.

Here's another...

A person uses a speaker measuring system to measure his speakers. The bass response is terrible! It falls off early and there are ugly peaks and valleys in the response. There must be something dramatically wrong.

So I ask how the measurement was done. He indicates it was done at the listening position. He goes on to say that no matter where in the room he takes the measurements, the graphs vary somewhat, but not that much. There is clearly a problem.

I explain to him that he was measuring the room. Unless you take near field measurements at the driver, there is no way to obtain accurate measurements below about 200Hz. If the measurement times are long enough to measure the bass response from the listening position, you are also measuring the room.

Room measurement tools like REW (and even a Radio Shack SPL meter) can be very useful in terms of optimizing your room. But they will not provide an accurate indication of the performance of a speaker. For that you need a quality speaker measurement system and a well-calibrated measurement microphone. And you also need a good bit of time to learn proper techniques for using these tools.

Too often, these tools do more harm than good. Improper measurement technique and a failure to understand how these tools work can cause you to needlessly lose confidence in your audio equipment.

As long as I am on a roll, I might mention reservations I have with all the new room EQ functions in receivers these days. I can't tell you how many times I have asked customers to turn off the EQ function and just use the speakers as they are. In almost every case, they reported a dramatic improvement in performance.

This would not seem to make sense. Here we have a magic electronic gadget that can correct for any flaw in the speakers/room and do it at the listening position. But all too often, it simply doesn't work.

On quite a few occasions, I have used DEQX (a very powerful and capable system) to apply a simple correction to a single loudspeaker. In other words, I was not using it as a crossover, just using it to measure and correct for anomalies in the speaker performance. In almost every case, the speaker performed far better without the corrections.

IMO, the only thing an automated receiver EQ system should be used for is to deal with room modes. It should not touch the signal above, say, 100Hz. The only thing it can do at higher frequencies is screw things up. I am very confident that the speakers we produce have absolutely no need for correction. There simply isn't anything to correct.

Any issue that does require correction is room-related. Changing speaker performance in order to deal with poor room acoustics is, plain and simple, a very bad idea.

The right technology, applied correctly, can be extremely beneficial in achieving great system performance. But sometimes technology can be a curse. It seems like every major receiver manufacturer today is offering an auto-EQ function. This may be great marketing, but in many cases, it is a terrible use of technology. Others may disagree with this advice, but if you have a function such as this on your receiver, please turn it off. In most cases, you will be a lot happier.

End of diatribe.

- Jim





Posted By: grunt Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 06:50 AM
 Originally Posted By: sirquack

Honestly I think Alan should read up on Audyssey, it is a totally different technology than past years setup routines in receivers, and blows Trinnov out of the water if you read the reviews by many.

When the talk of the new Outlaw just restarted I did a search for “Audyssey vs Tinnov” and the first 3 pro reviews (only ones I read) all gave better marks to Trinnov. Though one reviewer said none of them were as good as proper room treatments. Have to go back and do some more looking.

I’ve only ever tried Audyssey and at this point have to agree with Alan’s comments. In the three rooms I’ve tried it in it did slightly but noticeably improve the surround sound imaging but at the huge price of making my front three speakers sound like crap with voices especially male vocals. I’m holding out hope the receiver or mic is defective and the next one will work better, but for now no EQ for me.
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 10:58 AM
I leave Audyssey "on" in my system, but to a flat response. I have to leave it on to get Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume, both of which I love.

But the Audyssey EQ thing doesn't make my room less suckable.
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 11:14 AM
Yeah Mark, I think the main difference between the default "Audyssey" and "Flat" setting is the gradual rolloff in the highest frequencies. I'll have to give "flat" a try. For me, I see a great improvement during movies and music. The type of results you get can vary depending on how well you followed the initial setup from various locations. I've probably run through the setup of 8 locations 5-6 times, and have it down to a science now. \:\) chirp chirp chirp

ps: I will say that I agree with Alan on the auto setup of my old 2805, it did make things sound worse, not the case with Audyssey, and I can speak from actual using the product. DV I only use late at night when the family is trying to sleep. DE is always on.
Posted By: dewd Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 09:45 PM
I just love all the Audsyssey 'reviews' from those who don't really understand what it is trying to accomplish. If you are looking to customize your sound, don't use it. But don't put it down because it won't give you the curve you are expecting.

I asked the question before of Alan. What exactly is it about Audyssey you don't like?
Posted By: Listener Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 10:34 PM
I sense a hijack in progress. =)
Posted By: dewd Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 10:54 PM
 Originally Posted By: Listener
I sense a hijack in progress. =)


Sorry

It just trips my trigger when someone knowledgeable and respected dismisses a technology without some much as an explanation.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/10/09 10:57 PM
I think the biggest issue with auto setups is you have to look at it from a consumer perspective and from a speaker manufacturers perspective because they are the ones that have to deal with the customer service issues and audyessy which can have lot of user error involved adds a whole new wrinkle to troubleshooting problems so the best thing to do as a speaker company is to not recommend it/disable it. I would agree with that type of rationalization if true.


Posted By: JohnK Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/11/09 01:23 AM
Mark, a bit more on the point that Randy touched on. Your terminology "but" to a flat response suggests that you may think that the "flat" setting involves little or no Audyssey processing modifications. It actually involves the same processing as the "Audyssey" setting, with the Audyssey setting also adding a slight treble roll-off. The slight roll-off is said to give a little more natural-sounding balance in typical listener positions and is recommended first. Of course, both should be tried with the various program sources used.
Posted By: Micah Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/11/09 08:49 PM
My only experience with Audyssey is the demo I had over at Steve's house. He turned it on and off a few times during music and movie playback, and we both agreed turning it off was a big improvement. His room is very well treated. Perhaps in a sucky room it would make a better impression. But from that demo I decided that Audyssey simply can't touch a proper setup and good room treatments. But then again, I guess that's not what it was intended for.
Posted By: dewd Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/12/09 01:41 AM
You are assuming Steve had it setup correctly...
Posted By: grunt Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/12/09 05:21 AM
 Originally Posted By: dewd

You are assuming Steve had it setup correctly...

Every time I’ve tried Audyssey in 3 different rooms, following the instructions in the “Official Audyssey Thread” at AVS, (same speakers and equipment) it sounded terrible. In 2 of the 3 rooms it did make a small but noticeable improvement in the surround effects. They sounded more enveloping and holographic if that makes since. However, in all 3 rooms it set the EQ (based on copying the flat curve over to the manual EQ) at the 63, 125 and 250 Hz ranges to about -9dB +-3dB. The result was that voices especially male voices sound hollow, nasal and tinny. I did several blind tests and everyone could identify when the Audyssey EQ was on or off and all universally felt off sounded best, no contest.

At the suggestion of Randy I even reset my Denon to factory defaults but to no avail. So I’m left with only 2 choices either that Audyssey does more harm to the sound of my system than it does good or my receiver and/or mic are defective. If I buy another receiver with a built in auto-EQ (highly likely) I will certainly try it out, but for now I’m not sold on it.
Posted By: JohnK Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/12/09 05:59 AM
Dean, you probably didn't mean it this way, but I assume that when you copied the flat curve to the manual EQ(which actually can't be done)that you didn't listen that way, i.e., using the manual EQ setting rather than Audyssey.
Posted By: grunt Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/12/09 08:10 AM
 Originally Posted By: JohnK

Dean, you probably didn't mean it this way, but I assume that when you copied the flat curve to the manual EQ(which actually can't be done)that you didn't listen that way, i.e., using the manual EQ setting rather than Audyssey.


My comments on Audyssey’s performance are based on having the EQ set to and tested with the following EQ settings after running the “Auto Setup/EQ“ on the Denon…“Audyssey,” “Flat,” and “Manual” (manual when using the values copied over from the “Flat” curve).

As for copying the “flat” curve there is a menu option that asks if you wish to copy the “Flat” curve to the Manual EQ function which appears to sample the “Flat” curve at the 63, 125, 250, 500Hz...etc. bands and set the EQ for each speaker accordingly. The menu also gives you the option not to copy over the “Flat” curve which then displays the “Manual” EQ with all bands starting at 0dB. Either way you can then adjust each speaker’s settings manually at the available bands.

From my reading it seems that the “Flat” curve and the “Audyssey” curve are essentially the same except that the “Audyssey” curve rolls off the high end some and the “Flat” curve does not, meaning the settings for the lower bands are the same for both curves. Listening to the “Audyssey” curve, “Flat” curve and copied “Manual” settings all yielded the same hollow tinny sounding male voices.

So no the curve itself is not copied but the values at those frequencies bands sure appear to be, thus giving an approximation of the curve it‘s calculating and applying at the low end.

I did experiment with the manual EQ after copying the “Flat” curve over by taking the copied values from the “Flat” curve and tweaking them. Mostly I just bumped the 63, 125, 250 bands back up toward 0. The result was that the higher toward 0 I boosted these bands the less hollow and tinny the male voices sounded.
Posted By: JohnK Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/12/09 08:27 AM
Yeah Dean; I was just checking to be sure that you hadn't been just listening to the "copied" curve on the manual setting and thinking that it was the actual Audyssey curve. As Dr. Kyriakakis(Chris)made clear to a questioner on AVS(who had a mad urge to tweak the untweakable), the manual EQ isn't part of Audyssey and it's just a "crude" representation at a few specific frequency points(which you understand). There may be hundreds of frequency and time adjustments which wouldn't be reflected on the manual EQ.
Posted By: grunt Re: Just got the spl meter. Need help. - 07/12/09 08:50 AM

Thanks for trying to help John, and I can see where my earlier comments could lead to confusion about what I was doing. As I’ve mentioned there has been a noticeable improvement in the 360 degree sound stage especially discrete surround effects when running Audyssey. The opening scene of “Appleseed” has lots of glass shattering and concrete fragmenting all around you which when Audyssey is on is taken to another level.

However, the enhanced surround effects is not enough to suffer through the buttering of the tone of voices. I mean this is no subtle thing that needs an A/B test to compare. For example in “Master and Commander” Russell Crowe sounds like he’s talking through two tin cans connected by a string.

My gut instinct is that the receiver/mic is defective in some way. It was purchased B-stock. I will certainly give it a try again with new equipment but I’m so sick of running the Auto/EQ on this receiver I’m not touching it again.
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