Came across this at audio circle forum. Anyone else tried these or know about them. HOw can this guy know more about axiom speakers than axiom . He also absolutely slaughters the m80 verbally.

http://www.skiingninja.com/Axiom-M22v2-Upgrades-p/m22v2.htm

My quick take on them is that they like to take certain brands, find/create "faults" with them, and then sell outrageously priced "fixes" to them.

We've seen him around these parts before. Basically, what I figure is he's pretty pissed at the Axiom community for the savage beating (whether deserved or not) he received at this forum's hands--and he's taking it out on Axiom itself.

Just something i stumbled across, not trying to cause any trouble. My ears know what they like, and i am happy with my choices.I have to agree that seems like a really steep price for a cross over. I have been lurking around diy speaker forums and no reason it sould cost like that. Seems he is looing to make some easy cash.

Oh, didn't figure you were looking to stir things up. The last thread just got really ugly--on both sides of the issue.

Yeah, I've read some about some other speakers the Skiing Ninja modified. He's just an aftermarketeer, there are dozens of them around. Some are good at what they do, some not so much. I haven't personally heard a pair of speakers he's tweaked to know if he's good or bad, but I've heard good things about him, so who knows.

The thing is, this industry is one of the most widely diverse enigma's out there because everyone has an opinion, and no two are exactly the same. While one person is unpacking their Axiom speakers, hooking them up, and getting blown away by the way they sound, another person is unboxing theirs, hooking them up and wishing they sounded a bit 'different'. Like he says in his write-up, they make a fantastic speaker, but in his opinion they can use a little smoothing out. That's his right as a consumer to feel that way. I will admit that while pushing my system with the Emotiva these past two weeks, there are things I'd like to change... but they are all within my room, not the speakers.

This 'Skiing Ninja' had another idea, to change the speaker. Hey whatever floats your boat. If he thinks they sound better after his own adjustments, fantastic. If you decide to shell out the money for this tweak (practiacally doubling the price of the M22 while you're at it), and you like it... more power to you. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Hey I bought a perfectly awesome motorcycle brand new, paid $10,000 for it, and it ran like a scalded dog right out of the crate. But I have since sunk almost another $10,000 dollars into her making her 'mine'. Do I know more than Kawasaki does about their ZX-10R? In short... no. But I have to say I do agree with the theory he puts up on his web site. I too believe Kawasaki has to make trade-off's when they mass produce a bike. It's like they bring a bike to 100% of it's performance potential, then they tone it down a few clicks before they unleash it upon the public. Then I go out and buy the parts (full exhaust, Power Commander 3, velocity stacks, thin head gasket, BMC air filter, +3 rear sprocket, etc, etc, etc...) that for me anyway, make the bike even better. Now this isn't for everyone, the majority of riders will leave their bike stock for the most part. Or they'll change the ergonomics by putting heli-bars on it, lower the rearsets, and slap a Corbin seat on it. You see what I'm saying, to each his own.

If he claims to make the M22's sound 'better', keep in mind he means 'better to HIM'... and probably a minority of other people as well no doubt. But the vast majority of people will not tweak their M22's after they purchase them.

YOu make really valid points micah, i guess like any zealot i got a little emotional and posted before wrapping my head around the whole scenario.I just dont like his methodology,

I just read the Skiing Ninja's write up on the M80ti's. And I simply must say that I can't fathom where they're coming from when he speaks of the M80's poor 'off-axis' response? Mind you he is talking about the ti's, and not the v2's I have. However these two speakers share the exact same cabinet design (minus the crossover), so I would think the problems he found with the multiple tweeters would also hold true with my M80v2's... wouldn't they?

Well, I must admit, I have done about 98% of my listening from my 'captian's seat' right in the middle of the room. So I decided it was high time I got up off of my duff and walk around the room to see if I could hear what he was discribing. So over the course of 3 difference songs I constantly walked around the room, changing which direction I was facing, distances to either speaker, distances from walls. I went into each corner and even stood behind the speakers themselves... I was astonished!!!

Ok now keep in mind that I am listening to my stereo in 5/7.1 mode. So sure there are 6 speakers filling the 1200 square feet with music... but even so, while walking around my very poor listening room (dimension and treatment wise) I could barely tell a difference in the sound quality NO MATTER WHERE I STOOD!!! I started laughing hysterically I was so surprised! Seriously the imaging and sound staging was excellent from every position I could walk to in my living room, I never would have thought it possible to disperse the sound so evenly had I not just done the experiment myself 5 minutes ago.

Cancelling out high frequency response at 10 degree's??? I don't know what the scientific graphs show, but my ears can barely hear any difference at all in the sound coming out of these incredible speakers from ANY angle!!! Seriously, are these things for real? I don't think I could love a speaker any more than I love these 'highly critisized by many', but 'unbelievably accurate, clean, and detailed to my ear' Axiom's!!! What a steal at the price I paid!

Still I do have to say I'm intrigued by their findings that the M80's dip down to 2.5 ohms at times. I'm intrigued because it's essentially the same claim Emotiva made about the M80's when defending their amps that went into protection while trying to drive them. Some on here have made their cases as to why there's no way the M80's dip below 4 ohms no matter what. But two separate companies very publicly have shown otherwise. Like I said, intriguing!

Buth both those companies have a bias to point a finger...

If you look at the Ninjas frequency response measurements they are a long way off from independent measurements done in an anechoic chamber at the NRC. Some of the stuff like pointing out the speakers impedance is down to 1.5 Ohms BELOW 10 Hz are just not relevant. Who expects or wants their mains to play below 10Hz?? Unless you want to blow up your woofers...

He misses the mark on the quantifiable stuff.

As most of you know, I defended Sean when he came to this forum to introduce his modifications for Axiom products. I thought then, and still do, that he was, justified or not, unfairly and ungraciously treated here. Then he proceeded to deliver a totally unprofessional hatchet job to Axiom products on his forum.

I suspect that Ken is correct when he says his doing this was caused by the unwelcoming response, justified or not, he received here at the forum. Whether what he said is actually his honest opinion or not is unknown (I suspect it is). Regardless, he violated what is considered, though unwritten, virtually a law that one in the industry never does what he did to another in the industry. It reflects badly on both parties. Fortunately there is enough independent information about Axiom products which refutes his conclusions and opinions.

I cannot speak to the quality or performance of Sean's products. But, personally, he has lost my respect.

If that is the case, he did the hatchet job on himself. Its a small industry and people remember things like this.

I agree that he was not given the best welcome here.

Skiing Ninja just sells overpriced/expensive modifications to add to a few manufacturers speakers lines...if you want to buy that kind of stuff then more power to you. I'll spend my money elsewhere.

As to the M80s, I have reliable information that the M80v2 had significant improvements over the Ti in the realm of crossovers (or at least, significant improvements were made before changing the designation). So maybe there is something to his graphs, but I still agree with Jack.

Another review i came across which shows the ninja's graphs are out to lunch.



http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/axiom-m80.html



Seriously though folks, in the end it really comes down to what we all like. When i was young my dad had wharfdales, and they always sounded constrained to me but he loved them. When i was 16 i bought some Pioneer HPM 900's and i still have them 31 yrs later.Maybe not the best speakers by some peoples standards, but the imaging is incredible and they did a great job at HT and they have rocked out at more than a couple parties in my younger years . I havent listened to any music on the new speakers yet but i really like the axioms for HT.The Pioneers still serve duty for the kids to play their so called music at deafening levels. My only regret is i didnt take better care of my hearing (mechanic) as i am unable to hear as well as i used to.

As Jack said(very well), there exists a code of ethics between companies that was broken by one of the parties involved here, and that business comes across as having an agenda against Axiom products...Axiom does make great speakers, no need to do something childish like cross out the word "great" because you think you can improve upon them. Maybe he can, maybe he can't, but his business methods are immature to say the least, and for the coin he's asking for the "improvement", I'd pass on it and buy a nice amp instead.

Great point Adrian. I do not understand burning bridges either with manufacturers especially when his business depends on the success of them. Its not really surprising though, I suspect there are not many people buying the M22 crossover and no market for it within Axiom owners, so it really does not effect his bottom line. His product cater to the 123 crowd anyways, and their fanboys have always seemed to have an agenda against Axiom, if you read the various audio forums (ugly, poor build quality, cheap vinyl finish, ear bleeding bright, shrill, no bass etc etc) so all in all the comments are not really suprising. Certainly there is a lack of business ethics, but this shows the different approaches companies take. I have a great deal of respect for Axioms business model and the way they go about their business and always holding true to certain ethics/standards.

Not really Ken. Soundstage has Ti and V2 measurements and both look considerably better than what the Ninja put up. Neither had the big rise at the top end that he shows.

Absolutely right, Fred; the NRC(not by SoundStage itself, as was said)measurements for both M80 versions are readily available. They show very good to excellent frequency response for both and in particular no huge 9-10dB rise between about 3KHz-15KHz exists. The listening window average, which includes plus and minus 15 degree vertical measurements also shows none of the huge vertical angle frequency irregularities.

The NRC(National Research Council of Canada)is recognized as one of the most experienced and competent organizations which measure speakers. It's those measurements which can be trusted and which square with the generally excellent(in view of varying subjective preferences)user experience with the M80s.

As Alan has reported here on several occasions, his suggested modifications after he came to Axiom apparently resulted in greater lower mid-range smoothness from about 200Hz-1000Hz. That's about it.

Oh man, not another freaking ninja thread... I thought we got rid of conversations about that idiot..

MY BAD


Read the whole thread, i didnt know,<<<<<<hangs head and leaves room

No worries, certainly no need to hang your head.

HA HA you cant get rid of me that easy,

I usually push Axioms on AVS forum when someone asks for speaker recommendations. I'll find reviews or articles on the M2s or the M22s with head to head comparisons against Aperion or Paradigm or any other brands, and if the Axiom is favored in the review it just ticks everyone off and they say something like "unfair comparison" or " I don't like the way Axiom designs or makes their speakers so there is no way it is better than the other brands" don't know why people are so again Axioms they say they are too bright but they really like Klipsch speakers which are brighter than Axiom. How did this start, the dislike of Axioms? I by the way love my Axiom M22s and Vp150, they only thing I can say that I don't like about Axiom is the price of the subs compared to other brands that are as good or better at a lower price.

Some people have never even heard Axiom speakers before, and are listening to BS started by people with agendas, possibly by people in the industry who feel threatened by an internet direct company that cuts out these middle men. People who believe others opinions on Axiom's or any other speaker for that matter, are only hurting themselves in the end, as they are cheating themselves out of auditioning a fine speaker. I've heard people describe Monitor Audio and Paradigm speakers the same way, i auditioned both and found them very detailed as well. I guess hearing everything you're supposed to hear, means 'bright' to some people....could be they're just used to not hearing any detail on whatever they already own, who knows. As has been stated before...the graphs don't lie, unfortunately some people can be a little different.

And you lived to tell about it?

Axiom bashing was already a favorite pastime over there when I was looking for speakers a few years ago so I’m not sure how it all started (perhaps someone around longer will know for sure) but I think Adrian is on the right track. AVS is IMO dominated by “industry insiders.” The first hatched job I read on Axiom over there was from a B&M guy.

I believe miss/dis-information has also played a roll…the most vocal group being AV123 fanboys until that company started having problems. I haven’t read a “made my ears bleed” post since then.

I also got the impression from some posts I’ve read over there that Axiom got over hyped a bit for their taste so people probably took umbrage to someone coming into “their house” claiming there was something else as good or better than what they had for a lot less money.

Good luck trying to use professional reviews/measurements over there because as you pointed out anything good about Axiom is flawed for various reasons.

Lucky for me I’m not a lemming prone to following the crowd and by doing further research found that Axiom’s speakers seem well regarded everywhere I looked except AVS which tells me more about the AVS forum than Axiom speakers.

Would be interesting if someone does know how it all started if that can even be determined.

I agree with you grunt. There is a lot of mis/disinformation and half truths spread about Axiom but it is very common in the audio community in general, not just with Axiom. Some companies fanboys are just more viral than others. What is ironic is if you look at the problems and some of the accusations that have surfaced in regards to some of those "problems" you mentioned it sure looks to me that there has been a lot of positive dis/misinformation spread in their favour over the years as well.

I completely agree. Also, that behavior isn’t limited to this hobby either. Back in the day I remember fists flying over G.I. Joe vs Major Matt Mason. Some people (men?) never seem to grow up. For me today it’s always listening to the Flyboys I serve with now having to make fun of the Marine Corps (where I use to serve). I just

I see what you mean gtpsuper24.



Can anyone here confirm if the M3 does or doesn’t have a crossover? The specs list one at 2.2kHz.

The M3's have a high-pass filter on the 1" tweeter and the 6.5" woofer has it own natural roll-off.

I love how that guy is commenting on the speakers when he even admits never listening to them. Sounds like a typical response from the AVS`rs. On the other hand the M3's are highly regarded by a lot of third party reviews.

Sounds like a rather elegant design.

It didn't take them long did it. The orignal poster wanted some nice cherry speakers for light listen in a office. I thought the M2s in a custom cherry veneer would be perfect and in his budget ($400-450). I'll keep recommending Axioms to the noobs that post on there wanting speaker ideas, a few people have actually listened to me. The AV123 bashing is starting to happen it looks like now maybe they'll leave Axiom alone. The only posts by s44 on this thread is just negative about Axiom, he isn't even trying to help the OP just writing how a bad choice Axiom would be

"Keep my word positive. Words become my behaviors. Keep my behaviors positive. Behaviors become my habits. Keep my habits positive. Habits become my values. Keep my values positive. Values become my destiny."

Gandhi is not present at AVS.

neither is Albert Einstein:

"...knowledge must continually be renewed by ceaseless effort, if it is not to be lost. It resembles a statue of marble which stands in the desert and is continually threatened with burial by the shifting sand. The hands of service must ever be at work, in order that the marble continue to lastingly shine in the sun. To these serving hands mine shall also belong."

You have it exactly right sirtuttle! I found the same thing on Audioholics, though not as rabbid as avsforum. I decided to do a little experiment. Rather than riding to the bait (as I did initially), or giving up, I kept responding with links to the soundstage NRC measurements Toole's research and known A\B comparisons posted on the site.

It seems that people gradually respond in kind. Things have settled down a lot at audioholics. I'm not claiming I did this single handed as there were, and still are, others there that take this approach, but it is interesting people respond to the tone and language of a post. People still respond that they don't like the upper end of Axiom products, but the language has changed from "ear bleeding" to "I don't like".

Regarding Skiing Ninja and Dannie Richie's finding... They are ON THE MONEY on two points...

I'm an AV integrator/installer and have been using the axiom products on a few installs throughout the last 3 years. I even have sold/installed an A1400-8 (amazing amp) so I can honestly say I'm a fan of Axiom...

But there is a caveat, that being the M80 and VP150. Both have serious design flaws as outlined by Dannie Ritchie. I was not aware of the issues either of these speakers exhibit until I had a long weekend and all my test gear with me at my uncle's house.

He has the flagship M80 system powered initially with a Denon AVR4308. From day one I noticed something not right with the M80s and VP150. The EP500 was fabulous and so are the QS8s... I also liked the M60…

I attributed the sonic issues to the poor amp driving them. This is when next we purchased an A1400-8 but the sonic issues were still prevalent...

I tried to EQ the speakers to resolve the problems to no avail...

Well I left my uncle with a sub-par performing system until just this month when I had time to come over to the Island were he lives on the west coast. I brought with me various test equipment to get to the bottom of the issue...

What I found is perfectly summed up in this statement from the Skiing Ninja article...

"There is also cancellation from an out of phase issue between the woofers and mids in the 650Hz to 1,800Hz range. There is also a slight cancellation in the 2,500Hz to 3,500Hz range."

This is exactly what I perceived from day one with my wetwear (brain and ears)

With this knowledge in hand I then contacted some reputable friends in the AV industry. By AV industry I don't mean your local installer types but famous AV engineers I've come to know from my work in the media industry. One worked/contracted to THX and the other is the "Master of Time". I won't use names here but all I can tell you is they come from a pool of perhaps 50 people globally that really understand sound from both an engineering standpoint as well as applied... I also indirectly spoke with Vance Dickinson…

Essentially just with a glance at the business end of the speaker resulted in a, “that’s a very poor design decision”. Not to mention when I showed them the internals… The cabinet bracing is subpar as is the totally brutally low end components used in the crossover. I also noticed glue spills all over the place with next o no poly… Even the internal bracing was cut with a saw blade set to deep resulting in jagged splinters all over the edge of the bracing…

Also the article shows WHY the M80s have problems with the Emotiva XPA-2…

“The one place that you don't want to see low impedance is in the low frequency range where it will cause a high current demand on the source. Unfortunately this is exactly where the impedance is lowest in the M80Ti. It drops to 2.4 ohms between 10Hz and 20Hz. At the tuning frequency of the port it drops to 3 ohms. I can't recommend using this speaker with any typical home theater receiver though I am sure many do.”

It’s this crazy drop in impedance at low frequencies that pops the overload on the XPA-2 due to the bottom basement crossover and the horrible design decisions...

In all honesty I cannot suggest the M80 or VP150 to anyone personally but I have high praise for the M22s, the EP500 and QS8s as well as limited listening to the M60s

Yawwnn....think I'll go make myself a coffee.

I do apologize for dragging this dead horse out of its grave. I did not realize the vultures were circling the whole time.

Well,

Vulture ehh...

I intend to replace some of the crossover caps and inductors as well as pull one of the tweets outta the circuit. I will also TRY to reinforce the cabinet cross member/braces. Dead center of the brace/cross-member I used a sparkplug gap tool to see if the brace is even solid against the side of the cabinet. To my shock it seems to only contact the cabinet in the corners and has gap between the brace and the cabinet of greater than 1mm in some places... perhaps I can squirt more glue in there OMG perhaps this is why glue is all over the place inside here in the first place... Man owhh man somebody did a very sloppy job of jigging the saw when they made these cabinet braces man and appear to have tried to remedy it by squirting carpenders glue in the gaps!

OK at this point I'm very friggin pissed... I'm shocked the braces only contact in the corners... cabinet resonance is greatly affected. I'll try to fix this somehow but I think the cabinet is sonically hindered due to the poor bracing construction. I'll also stick more poly in there..

I will report my results...

Can you post us some pictures?

He will have to get his uncle to send him some pictures or travel to the west coast to get them taken .

All that work you plan on doing sounds rather pointless and waste of time for a product you don't like. It would be much easier to just sell them, wouldn't it?

Have you seen any other third party measurments of the M80's? As you might know they are much different than what ninj posted. What do you attribute to the drastic differences in measurments between ninja and credible sources such as the NRC. Frequency response,impedance etc... those are just a few issues you touched on.

I absolutely can not believe that axiom did not use steel h beams as cross bracing in the m80... you know that is pretty standard these days. Even Bbigwyrz knows that.

Go ahead, ask him when he gets back from his cross country search for true audiopile nirvana.

Considering the fact that Axiom uses CNC machinery to cut out the MDF cabinet pieces and they use jigs to secure them while applying glue and fasteners, I would be hesitant to believe that the bracing is as FU’d as being described here. I’ve had my M80TI’s apart when I installed the tweeter resisters. I’m a pretty good cabinet maker and know the difference between shoddy work and quality work. I did not find them to be in the state of incompetent assembly as being described.

If you don’t have pictures to show these defects, and references to go along with the resume you posted earlier, I’ll continue to believe you are as full of shit as the masked Ninja when he was here last agreeing to send Ian his crossover for testing, then coincidentally, not able to do so because of his business partners. However, if you can substantiate your claims, I’ll be more than amicable to take your comments at face value. Until then, they mean little to nothing to me.

I didn't know about that, thanks for posting that Michael. This must be before I bought my speakers.

The bottom line is, the NRC has no vested interest as to their testing of anyones product, it is in the interests of others who make money "improving" those products to try to cast them as poorly as possible. I'm not sure if Axiom even uses a saw on their speakers at all, I've seen the CNC machine at Dwight and I think(not positive) that their sizing is cut right on the CNC for consistency.

Have any of these people ever addressed the discrepency between their measurements(and how they got them) vs the NRC's?

Obviously SS's 80's were not made on the same CNC equipment as mine, take what he says with a grain of salt. Maybe he should tour the plant, if he has time from all the installs he does.

He doesn't even own the M80's his uncle does and he has not mentioned of owning any other Axiom products just that his uncle owns the Axiom amp as well. I have my doubts that his uncle would even let him take apart the entire speaker during the time he was doing the install. All he has showed us so far is a copy/paste job from ninja.

Nicely done, Michael.

You must feel honoured to know Ian Colquhoun, Alan Lofft, Tom Cumberland and so many people at the NRC!



BTW....it's "Dickason", not "Dickinson".

Why does he refuse to metion names if they're so high profile? Are they embarrassed to be linked to his findings? Because they do, after all, completely refute just about every sound test or speaker comparison done by many high profile names in the industry. There would be a lot of hubbub going around about how so many people with 'golden ears' claimed the M80's to sound spectacular, better even than speakers costing 2 or 3 times as much.

How could so many people get a review so wrong with a speaker this flawed???

Glue, glue, GLUE!!! Oh God it's everywhere!!! It's here, it's there, it's even in my underware!!! Filthy, sticky, globbery GLUE, I can't believe my eyes, this is like being at ground zero during 9/11, OH GOD THE HUMANITY, PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!!



Ummm... Are these comments supposed to convince us M80 owners that what we've been experiencng all this time, living in audio bliss, has actually been nothing more than a fraud? Do we now turn against our own ears and call them liars for telling us these speakers sound so sweet? I mean come on. What about those who have gone from the M60's (which according to them are very acceptable speakers) to M80's (which according to these same people do as good a job at reproducing an audio signal as my blender does) that somehow totally missed the fact that they just evidentally took a huge plunge in audio performance, yet somehow managed to feel otherwise???

And these 'bottom of the barrel' cross-over components somehow work superbly in the M60's, M22's, EP500's and other "wonderful Axiom products", but then somehow butcher any musical note that tries to escape an M80 or VP150... somehow this logic doesn't work for me. Maybe this is because I own both of these 'unsalvagable' speakers and can pretty much say without a doubt in my mind that the horse shit being shoveled into this thread is beyond rediculous and boarders on slanderous.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinions. But trying to convince others about those opinions using false information is simply unforgivable and in my book... pathetic.

This calls for an update, methinks......

Is this the end of Bbigwyres?

Say, when did the Deaf Monk die, did I miss an episode or something?

The Deaf Monk was blown up by an eruption in his own volcano in the last episode. However, a body was never found..........

I thought the Deaf Monk has strapped himself in liquid-filled speaker cables and had thus resisted the high output power of the volcano? But I might be confusing him with someone else.

You could be confusing him with the Blind Friar, his half brother.

I must have missed an episode...didn't the deaf monk turn bbigwyrz into something in one of the episodes?

He might be looking for a new mentor now? Possibly a ninja...

Another job well done with the bbigwyrz comics murph.

Sigh, how quickly my life long works have been forgotten.

Well, Ok, a few months work.

Alright, alright, so really just a few occasional minutes spread over a few months.

Some photos of the M80v2

















The glue is fine here as it's normal to have some spills... This is the right speaker... I'll open the left to show the shocking mess of glue tomorrow night in that speakers cabinet and the gap I was talking about.

I also want to get straight this isn't my home LOL... It's my BACHELOR uncle's house and as you can see he's a slob and his weekly house keeper missed a week! ROTFL… A tear actually comes to my eye to see the greasy fingers on the A1400-8 but hey… it’s his gear not mine!

PS That Denon AVR-4306 is soon to be replaced with an Emotiva UMC-1

I'm also curious how many other speakers on the market have a woofer/tweeter arrangement such as the M80 ?

OK WOW,

I just placed the speakers on top of milk crates to get them of the floor a foot and man what a difference. In doing wet-wear testing of off axis performance. I couldn't help but notice the vertical axis tonal shift this speaker has. The speaker sounds best at about 1.75-2.5 feet from the floor without being raised. I could be nuts here but I suggest you guys give them a listen whilst in the lotus position sitting on the floor. LOL Thus the milk crates..

PS I can't believe the tonal change on the vertical axis... bring them up a foot to a foot and a half really changes the sound for the better... IMHO

Obsessing much?

BTW so far you haven’t said anything new. It’s all been covered in various threads around the internet including some here. I posted the milk crate thing a couple years ago.

Cheers

Boy what a friendly forum! I've now been called names, a liar and been accused of being obsessive with little provocation.

PS No argument from me that the Skiing Ninja is a jerk and that review was bias. Some of this points were valid though and can't be ignored.

Geez fellas, realax a little will ya!!

You're right, the glue is not a big deal. I'm a little surprised at the gap because theses things are cnc cut, but shit happens sometimes. If your uncle is concerned, he should contact Axiom directly. They will take care of him.

Axiom is a quality company and these are quality speakers. They are, however production line speakers, not custom shop built for $10k, so you get less than perfection.

I'm willing to be you will see similar things in any speaker in this price range.

The Ninja is still full of crap.

What is it you want??? If you have problems with your purchase i would take it up with axiom. This is meerly a forum of like minded people who own axioms,not a place to rant and rave. You dont like your purchase,thats is fine by me.Lots of people do like these speakers.This is why axiom has a 30 day no quible refund policy. I dont have any M80's myself but if i did ,i would have read reviews and done some research and then if i didnt like them i would make the return. Ranting here may give you a bit of relief but honestly i personally dont care.Im sure it would please everyone here if you just dealt with this and then let it go. I for one am well aware that these are not ultra hight end big dollar speakers nor did i pay that for them. What they are , are damn good speakers for a really affordable price.I personally feel i got good value for the money i spent ,yes i could have spent more but i like other things as well and not everyone has a money tree. To wit,im sure the folks at axiom would be more than happy to work with you and your obvious dissatisfaction.

Peace

SolidState,

You really don't deserve the treatment you've been getting from some. I won't apologize on their behalf -- that's their call -- but many of us take our Axioms seriously. When you mentioned the flaws you discovered last week, it did sound a bit like you were making stuff up, but now that you've backed up the claims with very clear pictures, I can't see why anyone is holding anything against you.

I'll agree with Peter on that, I think it's best you give Axiom a call to address your concerns and see what they say. As Fred mentioned, those parts are CNC cut, so it's strange about the gap.

Do we know the production date of these speakers?

I believe they were built in August 06 and Axiom was CRAZY busy during that time frame...

I would not be happy if the inside of my speaker looked like that. It does seem a bit sloppy, and the gaps are inexcusable.

You should call Axiom and let them know.

PS - The inside of my EP800s did NOT look like that.

?? Have you been here long? This is so the place to rant and rave.
Folks on this forum, especially owners of axiom products have been raving about said products for a very long time here. Some also come here with questions and concerns. I would say that a sloppy build job qualifies as such.

SolidState as has already been said, you should call Axiom. They are a great company to work with and will work with you if the sound of your speakers is at all affected by the build quality.

I'd like to think the inside of a good speaker was as clean and refined as the outside - but that's unlikely. If it sounds good, it makes no difference what the inside looks like. Now tying sound problems to gaps and glue is whole different story. But my guess is much like many old musical instruments, those glue spots and rough edges don't degrade the music.

Before you ask Axiom to replace the speakers you should disassemble the driver and see if any glue is on the spider or voice coil. Then I'd saw the cabinets in half to make sure they used a solid MDF and not some cheap MDG. Once that is done, and the amp is in parts, call Axiom and demand your money back. I'm interested to just how good their customer service is.

?? Have you been here long? This is so the place to rant and rave.
Folks on this forum, especially owners of axiom products have been raving about said products for a very long time here. Some also come here with questions and concerns. I would say that a sloppy build job qualifies as such.


I practically invented the internet so yeah i know how a forum works.
I believe that its not always what you say, but how you say it,and the first few posts made by solid state were far from cordial. He is entitled to his opinion as am i, but taking such a tone is not goin to gain any sympathy. Had solidstate come here asking for help or information rather than having the adult version of a hissy fit he would have had a better experience. I am not alone in feeling his attack.


On another note, could it not be possible that what happened to his cabinet is a result of climate . My uncle made burl tables on the wet coast, and he sent one to a relative in saskatchewan and the damn thing exploded. And really the whole glue thing is just stupid. And lastly solidstate himself says in a post that the ninja is out of line ,so why post in this thread and not make his own thread relevant to his problem.

Ok i gotta go take my meds , peace out

All I will say is none of my many Axiom speakers I've purchased through the years look like that, seems there is more to the story.

all i can say to ninja is that we all have 30 days to basically try our speakers inside out. if you still like them after 30 days they are yours to keep. if you don't then you return them. that puts all of the math to sleep. by testing a product (m80ti) that is no longer made makes no sense. please send me your first crossover and i am sure that i will find issues. I am sure that you probably fixed it. now as for the tweeter issue, there is none. I have tried at least 5 different companies before settling on axiom. its all about the sound. the axiom were the best for my money.

PS do you give 30 days to try your stuff?

You guys always picking on the poor ninja

He's just trying to live up to his namesake, 'a saboteur, an assassin'...he just prefers to do it to companies instead of people.

I cleaned the friggin room up as it was outrageous... LOL

After that job I'm to tired to pull apart the left speaker to show it's insides...

Here are some photos of the changes. I placed the speakers on cinder blocks as you can see. I also removed a component from the rack. Do any of you know what it was? Actually two items...











By the way they do sound better. I'm going to add some more poly and pull the crossover out and give it a good look over. I really believe some better caps and inductors will make a difference.

Solid-State

PS DOH! I can't see a finger spot on the A1400-8 Better buff that up some more

The room is looking good now! I'm glad that your tweaks have helped you to enjoy your system more.

Room looks great. The view is stunningly tranquil and soothing. Paint the cinder blocks flat black, and they'll be less noticeable.

Thanks for posting the pictures of the speaker cabinet. That looks to me like someone on the assembly line was having a bad day. The bracing was cocked when they applied pressure to set the glue. I don’t think they tried to fill the gaps with more glue, but just screwed up getting the pieces aligned correctly. I’m pretty surprised QC didn’t catch that. Some leak out and runs are to be expected, but the gaps are unacceptable – in my opinion anyway. I’d send the pictures directly to Ian as I’m sure he’d want to know about this. I sure as hell would if it was my company. Someone in QC would be getting an ass chewing as well.

........the room looks great; now.

Was that a Factory Outlet speaker? If so, that might explain the defects.

Factory Outlet? No, as you can see it's a custom glossy cherry finish and we waited 8 weeks for delivery...

Technically there is 5 yr warranty on them, I'm not sure if that's just the drivers/crossovers or how that works...before you start making changes to them and voiding your warranty, what has Axiom said? Give them a chance to make things satisfactory.

I have no intent to change them in any way. I just wanted to get a look at them to make a schematic. I do intend to use a proto board though using the exact same schematic just with couple better inductors foil for bass and core for mid/tweet. For caps I just happen to have a bag of Epcos B25839 MKV caps. Very sought after caps and about the best sonically EVER MADE and are EOL

Solid-State

+1 , The exterior is absolutely beautiful, i dont know how someone would spend the time putting that veneer on and not notice the bracing. Good job on the clean up too, your uncle is very fortunate to have such a nice view.Have you had a chance to take a peek inside the other cabinet? I have no doubt axiom will stand behind this obvious mistake.

Oh and the answer is XBOX 360




peace

The problem with message boards is it is next to impossible to distinguish a guy coming on with a ligitimat complaint from someone coming in here to 'slam' Axiom for no other reason than 'to watch the world burn'! The first few posts looked exactly like the latter of the two, however if your complaints were valid then by all means, this is a place where an intelligent conversation about the pro's and cons of Axiom and their products can be hashed out.

There is a reality that any company who wishes to sell merchandise has to accept... you can't please all the people all of the time... it just can't be done. And with something as insanely 'musical preferences', selling speakers is an even harder job. I would bet my next years salary that if you took every manufacturer that made speakers for less than say $5000 dollars, took apart 100 of each of their speakers & ran them through the 'white glove' inspection you have, every single manufacturer would have at least one bad apple in the batch similar to this one. That's what happens when you switch from 'hand made' (and ultra expensive) speakers to production line speakers, you lose that personal touch and wind up with human error.

The bigger question is, is this something you should expext from $1300 dollar speakers? I say no. Is it something that you could see happening on a production line every now and then by a manufacturer who isn't charging its customers $10,000 dollars for a 'world class' speaker? I'd say yes.

Sure there are trade off's to be expected from a speaker this competetively priced, but over all sound quality isn't something many Axiom customers feel is one of those trade-off's. I'm still a little confused about how the same cross-over components that work so wonderfully in Axiom's lower line speakers, manage to fail so misserably in the M80's???

And I will simply have to respectfully disagree with the comments on noticable tonal shifts during off-axis listening. After reading about this phenomenon I got up out of my chair and walked all over my living room and was laughing tears because I was so shocked at how great they sounded from any angle I could get myself from them. Maybe if I used a microphone and some hi-tech equipment to measure the audio performance I would see what your talking about. But my ears love the way they sound.

And that's all that matters to me! I hope you can find a remedy for the faults you have found in your uncles speakers.



P.S. (Oh and one more thing that sort of peaved me in the beginning... Solid State you came on here blabbing about all these 'big names' in the industry who simply couldn't understand why Axiom would design their speakers the way they did with the dual tweeters and such. This seemed to be a mirror of the Skiing Ninja's diagnosis of why the M80's sound so horrendous. Well I'm sure people with those credentials could easily pick apart any speaker design that costs less than $15,000 dollars or so. But what I fail to understand is the point of that arguement??? Axiom itself sells a restrictor for the M80 if you don't like running both tweeters. Then again you could just trade them in for M60's and be done with it. But trashing the design of a speaker on a board filled with people who love the design isn't the best way to make friends. It would be no different than me getting on the Salk board and exlaiming, "hey so-and-so from Dolby labratories told me the design of the Song Towers is ridiculous"!!! By doing so I would totally expect the same reception that you received here. By all means you are welcome to your opinions. For instance I wouldn't expect such a harsh reaction if I got on the Salk board and said, "you know to me the M80's sound a little more clean than the Song Towers do". I would expect most to disagree with that comment on that board, but not so much hostility. But going to someone else's house [getting on this board is sort of like stepping into my home] and exclaiming, "your speaker is a joke" is for all intents and purposes... 'needless'. If you don't like that particular design then you don't have to buy it. Your uncle included. For those of us that have purchased the M80's and love the design, what good is throwing a bunch of jibberish about how bad this big wig or that audio guru considers them to be at us??? I for one am not going to change my opinion on them based on what anyone else says about them no matter who they may or may not be. So for future sake I'll just say you will find us a lot more accepting if you keep your complaints more civil. I really don't mind differences of opinions, in fact I seek them. I find it fascinating to hear all opinions on matters that interest me. But that seems more like speading hate than stating a difference of opinion. Maybe I'm alone in thinking that I don't know, that's just the way I feel about it. Carry on).

Hello!

Very interesting read this thread. Good pics from SS too.

I have some questions for you SS. As I understand it you are a very experienced audio guy so I thought I would just check some things with you about your test with the M80s.

I own the M22 and Im very happy with them. But, I recently moved and noticed a big degradation in sound when I had set up my system in the new room. Especially the "brightness" and "harshness" that people talk about became a big problem when playing loud, when it before the move was just detailed airy highs.
Both old and new room have concrete walls and ceiling. But the new room has bigger flat surfaces and a hardwood floor.
Did some exstensive reading about room acoustics as I understood that it was the cause of this.
I now have tried to fix things a little by adding carpets, curtains and so on, but nothing professional like absorbers.
The sound now is as good as in the old room, eventhough its not the "same" sound because of the new room beeing a little bigger and different layout.
Im sure you know about these kind of things, and how different sound can be in different rooms.

The thing that caught my attention is that your uncles room almost looks like a worst case scenario with wood floor and ceiling, and those big windows (although very beautiful).
Perhaps a good investment for improving sound would be some absorbing panels or something else that would damper some reflections?

All the best!

/Martin

What does uncle phil think of them , cause ultimately thats whats important.If you feel the above changes to the crossover will improve the way they sound to you and you like the result thats what is important. I will say i have noticed a deffinite change in the tone of this thread for the better and i for once appreciate it.

Oh yeah and thanks for the pics ,now i want that cherry veneer


peace

100% on the money... This room is a god awful situation. It did have this stained ugly white carpet I removed between pictures as you guys can see from the first set of photos. The reason that ugly thing was still there was for acoustics. I'll take pictures of the back of the room to give you guys an idea of what I'm dealing with. The back wall really needs some acoustic treatment. Wall rugs is what he really needs to implement.

I'd also really like to kill this thread as it's somewhat negative towards Axiom with that a$$hole skiing ninja article post opening the thread. Skiiing ninja is also a scammer. His prices are WAY out to lunch. This really proves he's a scammer but hey so are a lot of so called "highend" audio companies out there with 500 buck power cords etc.

Solid-State

Yeah it's not bad for not being waterfront. I'll post some pictures of some of my jobs on Salt Spring Island. You wouldn't believe some of the places I get to work at guys... Multi million dollar summer homes for the rich with views that will take your breath away.

Solid-State

Skiing Ninja falls in to the same category as those operations that want to provide "so-called" upgrades to existing electronics i.e. media players such as Blu-Ray and DVD players. They allegedly will provide "better" internal electronics for superior audio and video quality. Believe it or not, I read on another forum recently where some guy was interested in "upgrading" his Oppo BDP83 for only an additional $800(the player is $499) and this is on a unit with one of the top video processing sections on the market and an analog section that several reviewers are calling it on par with players 10 times the price!

The only thing these "improvements" give you is a canceled warranty!

Salt Spring Island? went past it on the way to Victoria a few weeks ago. There are a lot of $$ houses all through the islands and on the coast there, you can see alot of them from the ferry when it snakes through the islands. BC real estate is ridiculous though, I don't know how the younger generation affords it there.

Well one thing for sure, the prices they are asking are totally out to lunch. I wouldn't go as far as say it makes no difference though. If you understand electronics and how it all works you'd know that replacing the rectifier on the Oppo units is a good thing! Also replacing the clock oscillator can make a huge difference.

http://tinyurl.com/36yyqt

That guy's mods to a DV-980H on the rectifier and clock for DSD HDMI 1.2 transport would make a HUGE DIFFERENCE! BUT his prices again are totally out to lunch.

http://tinyurl.com/n62j7q

That clock would make a huge difference compared to the stock oscillator circuit.

Again though it all comes down to price right. These guys are asking an arm and a leg to modify these units. In the end economics dictate that with "high end" audio sonic returns diminish exponentially with price.

As for an amazing transport, right now, that's out there that can't be beat for the money... look no further than the
Emotiva ERC-1
http://emotiva.com/erc1.shtm

Those Emotiva guys have absolutely amazing product at insane price points.

Take a look at this...

http://tinyurl.com/ler6xf

Notice the back of each unit is the SAME!!!

This doesn't mean Bob is ripping people off... The Sunfire piece will have better more expensive components and be ASSEMBLED in house. As you can see each is identical and the "house" that designed the units are obviously the same people...

The same outfit obviously designed the internals. The back of each unit proves with out a doubt the same people made the initial reference design. Think of it like say GPU video cards... nVidia or ATI ODMs will release a "reference" design and other OEMs will design a retail product based on it. It could be slightly different though with better components like video RAM or solid caps, better heatsink etc.

What makes the Sunfire piece that much more than the Emotiva piece is Bob's people did assembly in house. In other words technical people, IE in house junior electronics engineers, will solder each component. Not all though like say something like the video section PCB that Lonny at Emo has had problems with that's held back the UMC-1 from release. That board would be made in Asia and would be large BGA ICs with 0603 surfacemounts etc. It's obvious these "sections" of the unit will be made by robots etc in large PCB fabrication plants. Back to Bob... his people might put more expensive "voltage parts", clocks etc inside the unit. This can add to the cost bigtime. Also they sign off on the final build and run much more stringent tests on the final product than say... Fing Wong Wing... Get it! LOL

Is it worth the extra 2 grand! I dunno man... for someone like me with a working (hobiest) knowledge of electronics and an old childhood pal working for Ed at EMMlabs whom I can call on to checkout gear and suggest mods to improve the design I'd go with the Emo gear and fix problems Fing Wong Wing had on the assembly line on a bad day... LOL


Solid-State

You say these mods would make a huge difference. How? Where's the proof? I don't want to see oscilloscope scans showing differences in performance. I want to know if a panel of audio enthusiasts can tell the stock unit from a modded unit 10 times out of 10 in a blind test. Because that's being asserted when a huge difference is claimed.

One mod I wouldn't mind is to make my OPPO an all-region player.

Ok I read the 'super clock' write up and all I can say is I would have to see this with my own eyes to believe it. And I say that because I fell for the 'Monster Cable' hype back in my youth, and once my eye's were open to the complete bullshit that is the Monster hype machine, I will no longer read a sentence such as that and then shell out $300 dollars for it without thoroughly investigating and testing it out myself to see if I feel there is any difference at all to be had. In my limited experience I've yet to notice much 'distortion' when it comes to Bluray playback. That isn't to say there aren't better components to be had out there, but are they $300 dollars better?

I have a sneaking suspision that if I took a regular Joe Oppo player and hooked it up to a decent LCD tv, then hooked up an Oppo player with this 'super clock' installed and switched the playback back and forth between the two, the differences in the picture would be so minute they would be undetectable to the vast majority of viewers, and incredibly hard to distinguish by the few who actually could tell any difference at all. You see when you go over to someone's house who has one of these players and they say, "look at that picture, isn't it incredible"!!! Sure it's easy to think to yourself 'wow, that really is an amazing picture, that super clock is wicked good'... but what you don't know is if you could even tell the difference side by side with a regular Oppo player. Because let's face it, Bluray images are stunning all on their own. But someone telling you it's stunning because of a $300 dollar super clock doesn't make it so.

Yeah, Micah, the use of terms such as "huge", "night-and-day", etc. in areas of audio where it's questionable and hasn't been proven that even very subtle audible differences exist, should send up warning flags. This is frequently an attempt to substitute extravagant language for facts.

This is my whole plan for landing a wife.

You guys are being mean…I’m telling.

Not that I'm necessarily going to settle for a plane wife.

There's a lawyer joke in there somewhere.

I guess huge is a little superlative. It would make a noticeable improvement that's for sure. As for your "oscilloscope scans" I don't know what to say... These things are hard to quantify on that level. When you're dealing with the analog realm IE speaker, mike and old analog mixing boards it's not something that can be analyzed in that way. Does this mean it's BS? Hardly, tell that to the famous audio engineers at Abby Road etc that used certain mixing boards and valve EQs etc to produce a certain sonic signature it's BS. One knows what one's ears hear. That's about all I can say about it. The law of diminishing returns still applies though.

Solid-State

Yeah monster cable is overpriced BS and isn't that high a caliber cable really. Their LFE cable is total crap and the reason it has a directional arrows is because one end of the cable the ground isn't terminated to the RCA! These facts don't make decent cables BS though. It's obvious crappy interconnects do make a huge difference. Monster capitalizes on that fact and also the ignorance of the public that barely understand how electricity comes outta an electrical outlet. Again this doesn't mean quality interconnects are BS. I've swapped out shit interconnects including Monster cable and have personally heard huge differences. There I go again using superlatives but really their is no other way to describe it. As for where to source decent cable at a decent price... Bluejeans my friend... Bluejeans Cable in the Seattle area!

As for clocks making a difference, tell the pros that use certain EOL world clocks that it doesn't make a difference. I personally know a few engineers that insist on certain clocks like the one Aardvark made some years ago. Those clocks are sold for almost double what the original purchase price was because they are so good and do have an affect on the final cut.

Solid-State


PS I've swapped out the Monster LFE for the Bluejeans Belden LFE and I can tell you right now it make a HUGE difference... HUGE! and that's with an EP500

I have no doubt that tube/valve equipment has a "sonic signature", the large amount of even-order harmonic distortion present in tubes makes them sound warm or fat. That can be a very pleasing effect if it is what you are looking for.

But adding unintended distortion during playback isn't what I want. My desire is for my chain of gear to impart as little of its own character on the sound as possible. Modern solid state and digital technologies do just that.

The changes these modders make provide nearly immeasurable differences, and certainly inaudible. Again as others have said, I want to see a rigorous, double-blind test performed between a stock and a modded component where one can be identified beyond statistical probability.

I guess with all that said you guys figure the Oppo transport is the be all end all right? Well you guys are WRONG... What I suggest you do is take your wonderful Oppos to a highend audio shop. Do your own blind tests with a tier one transport (around $1500 and up) and see for your selves. Try both analog and digital connections. Many say digital is digital and unit makes no difference. These are the people I spoke of in the post above that don't understand how electricity comes outta a wall socket. You will soon discover it does make a difference. Again though the law of diminishing returns applies BUT this doesn't mean it won't sound better that's for sure!

Solid, as long as you keep using words like "HUGE difference!!" my mind keeps saying "bullshit".

Your type has come and gone through here and other forums. You have all the answers, you know that lots of experts agree with you, and anyone that disagrees is wrong. I'm sorry about the bracing and glue job on those M80s, but as far as I've seen, everything else you say is crap.

Test gear as fast as a human can hear is crazy expensive and is a poor substitute for mother nature. All I can say is in the end it all comes down to time and the analog realm of sounds waves and your ears/brain perceiving them. There isn't a piece of test gear on earth that can compare to the human senses. A good analogy are the mass spectrometers my brother in law engineered at Rosemount Instruments in Calgary. Sure they can pickup cocaine on 100 dollar bills but compared to a dog's nose... Forget it nature and the dog's nose wins hands down! Field testing proves and the dog wins every time. It's these truths that make electronic engineering as it pertains to sound and video a total and complete art form.

Wouldn't you think if one could simply perform an "oscilloscope scan" and quantify components or a final piece's overall performance wouldn't everybody simply end up with the same designs? Why the plethora of audio video equipment in existence? IF your supposition was reality don't you think that to save money and maximize profits all electronics outfits would simply all use the same parts, same designs etc and all be clones? If you can quantify this stuff as you guys suggest you'd think that by now there would be a be all end all way to say... make a CD player?

Solid-State

WOW nice one buddy...

Sure are some real rude people on this forum ehh?

I don't believe you guys understand the level of trial and error that is the history of electronics. The very nature of it being a technology means it's under constant change. Why this constant state of change? Well because it evolves due to the scientific principle and the method there applied. It's important to note that a significant portion of the underpinning physics going on that drives our wonderful technology is barely understood. Take for example a white LED. We use them all the time today in flashlights etc right! Do you guys realize that we don't have ANY scientific assertion that explains how it works! It's these realities that allow progress to occur. For our TVs and stereos to evolve and improve as time progresses. Technology such as this is build upon the foundation of countless forebearers many countless trial and error attempts. Sure test equipment can be used as tools to help guide us in this subjective reality but they are not the be all end all of applied scientific principle. The aliased nature of the data-sets produced by such equipment make them inherently poor at quantifying such relativistic axioms as Hydrodynamics, Acoustic Theory and Aerodynamics. All of these are THEORY and our subjective reality granularity dictates, as it pertains to the human sense hearing, that no test equipment could ever possible hope to discern what good old wet wear can do or field testing. Have we come a long way... YES bigtime... specially in acoustic theory the last 20 years using DSPs etc and recent maths but we are still no where near a complete and unified theory nor do we possess any test equipment with the granularity to do so... yet

Out of all the technological applied endeavors go, boat hull design, speaker design, mike design and even yes... transport design due to it's analogous nature dictates that test equipment will NEVER and I mean EVER discern what the human ear or field testing can do... EVER and as for components making the difference. I personally have replaced something as simple as a capacitor and notice a major sonic change. Heck even using different hook ups IE cables can produce a noticeable sonic change. Have you guys not ever change out cables and noticed a change in the sound for god's sake !?!

Listen there are two camps in this fundamental debate regarding the technology of sound equipment. Those that, for example, say lamp cord is same as expensive speaker cables and those that claim their speaker cable makes a "huge" LOL difference. All I know is I find my self using the phrases "within reason" and "law of diminishing returns" lots with people when discussing these things. Those that say you can't tell the difference what so ever either have bad hearing or... they are "tone deaf" LOL Within reason means YES any person with hearing can tell the difference between a piece of shit 18ga one conductor copper the other ALUMINUM Chinese CRAP one wold pickup in a Canadian Tire with the Belden 1313A SKU I use for my installs. Would a person discern my 1313a from a piece of silver clad boutique cable? probably not! Can I tell the difference between my 1313a and say some magnet wire with corks or cat5e Gordian knot like lunacy? YES YOU CAN! Is it worth the effort? Well that's another story!

All I know is the truth lays somewhere between both camps as it always has...

Solid-State

Don't let a loose gander spoil the beginning of your relationship.

That's simply untrue in the realm of audio, and that is most often claimed by people wanting to sell you an "upgrade" of questionable value. It's not voodoo.

Much like your comment about how test gear cannot compete with the human senses, this statement is also wrong. The human realm of sense is severely limited, and easily fooled. Test equipment can measure, distortion, amplitude, frequency, and phase variation with more accuracy and consistency than a human who can't directly compare two passages separated by five seconds of time, and is often fooled into thinking something sounds better simply by increasing the volume. Think too of optical and aural illusions as an example of how easily our senses can be mislead.

That's not the point of this post. I don't know where you go the idea that the designers of "white" LEDs don't know how they work, but they do. I put "white" in quotes, because white LEDs generally do not emit white light. The most common kind are actually blue, in the 10000 Kelvin range, which fool our limited sense of vision into seeing white. Others which actually do have a more complete spectrum use a phosphor mix, similar to that used in (cheap) fluorescent lights, and the diode emits UV light which is used to excite this phosphor. The third style combines 3 diode junctions which each emitting coherent light centered at red, green, and blue respectively; the combined light appears white.

Also not true in LED technology, which I have dona a fair amount of reading on. You white LED is a fluorescent emitter. you have a mix of compounds which absorb energy in one spectrum and emit it in another. Thats been known for a very long time.

The dogs nose is i nice selective example. We have no senses that are anywhere near as acute as a dogs nose. Whats more, we understand exactly how the sense of smell, and hearing works, down to the atomic level.

If it were so darned easy to improve the sound of a given design by substituting a few components, companies would do it themselves. Why? Profit. If you could switch in $10/20/40 and effect a night and day difference, you could then charge hundreds or thousands of dollars more for that huge difference.

If the Ninja can so easily improve other peoples products, why is he not building his own and mopping up? In fact, if you look at the history of Axiom, that is exactly what Ian Calhoun did.

As far as the Ninja goes, there are easily available, independant measurements of both the M80ti and the M80v2 that are significantly different than what the Ninja posted. They were done at a lab, the NRC, in an anechoic chamber by people that do this sort of thing professionally for a living in an institution that has been doing this for a very, very long time.

The Ninja is full of it. He got, IMO, poorly treated here, lost it and had a very public hissy fit.

Its time to move on.

I think you just lost us dude. Should have stopped a few posts back.

I was under the impression that the underpinning physics of YAGs (Ce-doped yttrium aluminum garnets) was not fully understood. Sure they understand what materials to use and how to dope it correctly. This doesn't mean they understand the why or how it works on the quantum level. I was under the impression they are not certain why (Y 1-aGd a) 3(Al 1-bGa b) 5O 12:Ce [2] does what it does. They have theory. If it was as simple as placing a phosphor in the P-type as you suggest why then the 80 plus years to come to a, for all intensive purposes, white LED? Again this took trial and error by material scientists to find the right stuff. The reason it took so very long to find the right material? Because all we have is theory as to why certain material works the way they do. It's only by lab testing various materials to discover what do what. If the math and theory was fully understood as you suggest it wouldn't have taken 80 years to discover. From my understanding, and I could be wrong, that on a fundamental physics level we are not certain why YAGs do what they do. IT doesn't work like phosphorescence as you sorta assert but scintillation. Scintillation as it pertains to anomalous materials such as YAGs used in white LEDs is not fully understood. Yes we know what materials do what. Yes we know how arrange said materials to produce the desired affect but do we known the underpinning atomic/quantum reasons the material behaves the way it does, I was under the impression not. I know a physics prof at UBC I'll ask him and get back to you. Why is this so hard to believe? We take advantage of gravity the "week force" via hydroelectric all the time yet we simple have no why as to gravity. Yes we take take scientific advantage of it's properties BUT do we really understand the underlying forces/principals governing it... NO

Solid-State

PS WTF do you think the field is called anomalous materials research if we understand 100% what's going on! Anomalous phenomena is what led to the discoveries in the friggin first place man!

Dude, who DON'T you know?

I suggest you guys read something like this before you start insulting me again...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalous_photovoltaic_effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomaly_(physics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiral_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parity_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konishi_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouguer_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-air_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_anomaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_anomaly

I can keep them coming if you like!

Here is one for all your wet-noodles...

Ok say I want to measure the coastline of Great Briton ok. Lets start with a unit of measure such as a km. Ok we have a certain count of that unit of measure right... Ok lets move on down to a decameter and take a unit of measure count. Lets move on to millimeters ok... you get the picture...

Do you realize that with every change to a smaller unit of measure the coast line gets LARGER!

Solid-State

Please show a direct link between quantum physics and audio components as it relates to audible differences in speaker crossovers. Links to relevant studies in peer reviewed publications would be fine.

The principals of a white LED are very well known, even if we do not know everything about one particular compound at the sub-atomic level. You are picking quantum nits here.

Lastly, an example of something we do not know in one small corner of an unrelated field is not evidence of anything related to the topic at hand.

This sort of prezel logic has proven very popular and effective in politics and the world of corporate spin of late. Makes me think of the Monty Python parrot sketch.

Now go away you silly person...

If what you are saying is true then WTF doesn't Audioholics just simply post test equipment measurements plot them on a graph and be done with the review! Why are not speakers simply reviewed online like say video cards with simple graphs showing what's best! If what your saying is true then why don't we have test measuring matrices to show the difference? There are many sonic properties that can't be quantified as you suggest by test equipment. I personally believe this to be fact. Sure people are stupid at discerning what the sonic change is due to our limited sonic memory and yes DSP can fool us but they do discern a change of some sort. All I know is interconnects IE calbles etc can make a difference as can capacitors and inductors in a crossover circuit. Can test equipment measure such change? To that all I can say is I don't know 100% but I feel it very unlikely. If test equipment can't measure the change does this mean it's BS and placebo! No friggin way... I've done blind tests and have personally witnessed change.

Solid-State

While I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread from an entertainment point of view. I'm doing my best to stay out of it.

I do want to say one thing though. Solidstate, if you can troubleshoot transport problems from hearing alone better than our thousands of dollars in test gear, PM me your resume. I'll hire you tomorrow. Of course, all our transport is digital, not analogue, so you might get a bit bored. We still have lots of legacy, edge data services though you could help with. Just don't get a splinter putting copper wires in your ear.

Of course, I'm sure you were referring to audio transport, not telecom. Still I couldn't let the slim chance to snipe such talented person before someone like Rogers got hold of you.

Kidding of course! I do my best to pick on the regulars (regularly) so I shouldn't leave you out.

I think you have been a bit mistreated here as we have had more controversial discussions here before with less flaming on both sides but honestly, the more you stray from topic with analogies from unrelated sciences, the more you invite frustrated venting from those who like to stick with the facts and opinions actually related to the topic at hand.

You make some good arguments for discussion but my advice is that they would be better received with quoted evidence directly related to the immediate topic.

Hope my humor isn't read as a flame and my advice is taken as friendly.

Because doing this is vastly more entertaining and profitable and thats what its all about.

Have you looked at Audioholics reviews? They are very close to that. They measure and report the specs of the gear. They talk about features which may be useful (or not), build quality, and that's about it. They don't talk about how "chocolaty" speakers sound or "dancable" the cables are. That's the reason I liked the site so much, and how I found Axiom (to keep this on topic). I've become a little more disappointed with them recently after they've opened a store and are selling products which compete against others which they are reviewing.

Yes, interconnects can degrade a signal if they are improperly designed. But any cable which to able to provide enough bandwidth to transfer the signal it is being asked to carry, does not have too much capacitance or inductance where it begins to act as a tone control, and has enough shielding to prevent interference; will sound/look the same.

Can a human in a rigorous, double-blind test be able to identify such a change beyond statistical probability? I feel it is unlikely.

Speakers are one of the hardest pieces of equipment to talk about objectively. They are by far the least accurate piece of the chain, and are affected to a greater extent by the listening environment. Simply turning one's head a degree to either side will have a much larger impact on the sonic reproduction than one 5% vs. a 1% capacitor in the crossover. Even the weather or one's mood is going to change the listening experience to a greater extent. I know on days when there's a nice breeze blowing through my living room and the smell of blossoms in the air, all my music sounds better--and that costs nothing.

EDIT: Please describe the procedure for your blind (not double?) test.

You guys are just as bad as the idiots that think 500 buck power cords make a difference only on the other extreme. You guys are drinking the Koolaid and vast generalizations online e-tailers and their support review sites use to justify the perhaps 50 buck unit cost savings using, for example, Axiom's M80 crossover components. I would seriously like to know what crossovers Ian and the boys are using in their personal M80s being driven by the A1400-8. If they are even using M80s with their A1400-8s as that amp is in a class way above what one would use to drive M80s. That's for friggin SURE! Seriously I'd like to know what crossover parts the Axiom insiders use. I know they must be watching this thread... IF you guys personally have M80s in your theater have you changed out any of the xover parts?

Solid-State

PS I do make my own LOL power cords outta a Belden SKU with decent IEC and power plugs... have I heard a difference.. ROTFL yes seriously. Would I use the superlative "huge" NO! I don't want more flames directed my way. I don't do it for sonic gains though but to make the install more neat.

SolidState, here's something to "shake yourself out" to. I think you need it.

Before you guys start attacking me that crossover components makes no difference and demand statistical graphs and double blind studies to prove it, please read these links on a DIY parts site.

http://www.parts-express.com/resources/crossover-help.cfm

http://www.parts-express.com/resources/building-a-crossover.cfm

http://www.parts-express.com/resources/crossover-component-selection-guide.cfm

http://www.parts-express.com/resources/crossover-faqs.cfm

By no means am I saying I can design a cross over for the M80. The nature of the M80 with it's 3 way six driver design is one of the hardest to make a crossover for.

Solid-State

Nobody is saying that changing the crossover won't make a difference. If you use components with different values, or a different topology altogether, of course it will sound different.

Do you think that Axiom hasn't experimented with many different crossover designs themselves? Do you think they haven't put these different designs through a series of blind tests to determine which results in the most neutral and natural presentation of sound? Do you think they don't have their own electronics experts with many years of design under their belts?

Your posting of irrelevant links is not helping your case. Also, claiming that Axiom's staff designs and keeps the good crossovers for themselves while foisting substandard crap on us unwitting consumers is laughable.

"Nobody is saying that changing the crossover won't make a difference. If you use components with different values, or a different topology altogether, of course it will sound different." And I'm saying you can use the same component with the same value and hear the difference.

Did the Skiiing Ninja ever send his M22 crossover into Axiom? If so what were the results? Improvement?

Solid-State

PS You make out that I'm trying to say Axiom is keeping the good stuff for themselves and passing on crap to us is BS. This is your perception and is hardly the truth. If you understood what I'm trying to say you'd know that's a total insult. Again I'll rant my mantra

"within reason" and "law of diminishing returns.

He never sent them.

Really, Peter... this whole thing has become laughable....

Hubba, hubba! I surely do love solid state physiques.

*whispers hastily in Fred's ear*


aw crap, I posted in this thread...

You have just forfeited your popcorn rights.


Wait a minute....Dohhh!

sigh.....next class we will discuss how speakers "open up" during cable break-in. This thread has turned into a lot of nonsense.

I'm going to back this thread up to where it was claimed we don't understand how gravity works. Keep in mind I'm don't work for any University or Physics lab or anything like that, but I know how gravity works. Anything with any mass what-so-ever has it's own gravitational pull. That's because 'stuff' is made up of atoms. Atoms are electronically charged, therefore they are magnetically attracted to eachother. Therefore anything with enough mass will attract anything else with mass. It doesn't really become that obvious until you gain as much mass as a planet or a moon. The bigger the planet or moon, the more gravity it possesses. It's really not that hard to understand.

Ok, now we can all check that one off the list!

If Ian and Tom are so friggin brilliant as you claim please explain the VP150 to me ehh !?! Dude anybody with half a friggin brain in speaker design knows placing the tweeters in the orientation as is implemented in the VP150 is a horrible design decision. The CTC and combing issues alone in that design is why not a SINGLE OTHER CENTER CHANNEL IN THE BUSINESS IS USING SUCH A DESIGN.

Ok at this point I'm rather turned off by you "Axiomites" For the most part you guys are rude, crass, condescending and patronizing. I really don't want to say this but I'm really stating to think your a bunch of a-holes.

Do I have a reason to be pissed with Axiom? Yes... The first batch of woofers that came with the M80s had the dustcover on the voice coil partly glued on and off center by a shocking margin. The EP500s RCA line level in was bent from the get go and eventually failed and had to be replaced. The A1400-8 failed and had to be replaced. The unit from the get go has had a hum that can't be resolved... well it can if you populate each modified ice module with two speakers. Each module really needs a load on each output or again the hum. Does this mean the amp has design flaws? I dunno... but in looking at the choices made in house on the VP150 one can't help but wonder. Again I want to make it clear I'm not an engineer but I do intend to take the A1400-8 to Kevin and Ed if they'll have me when I'm visiting family in Calgary. They don't have a NASA credentials but I do trust their opinions LOL. I'm very curious what they'd think of the piece. Personally I love it BUT that issue with hum sits in the back of my mind... Specially when coupled with my Axiom experience... and now this forum. Not to mention the cabinet build issues that I personally think is not a problem unlike you knobs... You idiots are more concerned about wood frays than the caps in the bloody crossover or the lack of enough poly or the fundamental CTC combing issues using tweeters as they do in the designs.

Solid-State

PS Now that Axiom knows who I am I'd like them to truthfully answer two questions. What center do you use in your own personal rigs? I assume you have M80 as your mains guys... do you use the factory boxed xover?

PSS Clever the shrink rap on the caps... If I cut into them and they see Teapo I'm gunna be LIVID!I have yet to determine if it's an audio grade cap as the shrink rap covers it. More evidence Skiiing Ninja is full of it as how can he say it's bottom barrel until the shrink rap is removed... owhh wait... the rammed glue into the shrink rap between the cap cylinders. I guess we are never to know!

Micah, I'm afraid you're wrong about the gravity thing. We have several working theories, but magnetism isn't one of them.

No doubt that your uncles M80's have some issues which should be adressed, yet you don't want to take it up with customer service. You have some legitimate grips but you are also not without your faults. I think we have all agreed that your uncles issues need to be addressed but you have become rather annoying harping on irrelevant topics (white light, interconnects, what speakers do axiom employees own etc) and not stressing on wanting to get your uncles speakers fixed. Your uncle has a legitimate beef but you are just blowing hot air and becoming rather trollish.

All we've heard is complaints, whenever someone asks you if you've contacted Axiom about your concerns....silence, then more complaints. If you want to know why Tom and Ian make the decisions they do about the product line, then you should ask them. Seems like you've already made up your mind as to what you want to believe anyway, so that probably won't make any difference.

My first impression of your very first post, was you were here to stir the pot, and I believe many here felt the same thing. Then once it was clear that you had some genuine concerns, I would say that many here sympathized with you and several of us suggested you contact Axiom....Did you?

So, instead, you began trash talking Axiom and then the forum members. To be fair, you weren't necessarily welcomed with open arms here, but the fact is your first post set everything in motion. If you were here to actually solve anything or get some advise, well, you've failed.

It's also important to note Axiom is into my uncle Stephen for:

1
Remove A1400-8 Amp
Color: Silver
$4,158.00 CAD

1
Remove VP150 Center
Color: Boston Cherry
$441.00 CAD

1
Remove EP500 Powered Subwoofer
Color: Boston Cherry
$1,328.00 CAD

1
Remove Pair Millennia M80 Towers
Color: Boston Cherry
$1,436.00 CAD

1
Remove Pair QS8 Surrounds
Color: Boston Cherry
$583.00 CAD

1
Remove Pair FMSQS Stands
Color: Black
$309.00 CAD

Subtotal $8,255.00 CAD
Home Theater Discount
(5% discount if we ship 5 items over $32.40 CAD to you at one time)

$412.75 CAD
Print Shopping Cart Shipping FREE
Total
$7,842.25 CAD

That's dam near 9 GRAND all said and done!!!

And you know what REALLY pisses me off most... I did an Emotiva rig for a customer using their amps and speakers and you know what... it friggin blew the doors off of the Axiom 9 grand system and did so at almost half the price... Am I pissed YES and this forum has managed to crank it up a notch or two! As for contacting Axiom blahh blahh how the hell do you think I replaced the first woofers or first A1400 or the first EP500 amp. What the hell do you think they'll say about the VP150 obvious design flaws... It will be like talking to a politician regarding a social issue. It would be almost as much a waste of time as this forum is. I didn't come here to crap on Axiom, no way, they are very nice guys and wanted to hide a lot of the bad experience because I don't want to damage them... It's you Axiomites pushed me to it with your rude prose and stuffy attitudes. To tell you guys the truth this all started when I told you guys about my uncle's speaker innards and you all called me a lair until I posted pictures. If only the tone of this forum was more friendly and not so obnoxious these things would not have been made public. In your plight to defend any critical observation about Axiom product experience you all managed to expose your selves as a bunch of bias asses... Even more so than Skiiing Ninja there...

Solid-State

Nobody should waste anymore of their time on this, clearly you WON'T contact Axiom, so we'll assume you're here to cause trouble, which incidentally was our first impression.

hey man thats my mom

Chart 3 three quarters the way down is very interesting...

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m80ti/

It's the only speaker to show little to no harmonic distortion between 500 and 10k... actually it shows zero, zilch nodda distortion... believable... HARDLY
THD+N flatlines at 500-10k at 90db but at 95db some distortion is there past 500 but not much... hmm and this speaker was improved?

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m80v2/

Chart 3 again 3/4 way down... hmmm... now there is THD+N at around 2K shown... and this is the improvement...

I cough... bullshit... cough call bullshit on that soundstage testing. Did anyone notice there was no THD+N past 500hz on the obviously fraudulent data on the Original M80ti? It just simply flatlines on the published data... even at 95dB! Look at the data on the other speakers! Do ANY and I mean ANY show similar properties on chart 3 on THD+N !! past 500Hz NO!!! OK the Studio 100 does, and I believe that, hmm what was Soundstage hiding with the flatline THD+N data past 500 pray-tel and how the hell can the documented distortion at 2k in the v2 design help the speaker?

Solid-State

PS HAHAHA it's the NRC that did the tests! doh! I still seriously wonder and don't take the NRC as gospel

Your latest series of posts speak for themselves.

Don't Feed The Troll!

Troll hungry....Nom, Nom, Nom!

YES FEED ME FEED ME!

I want answers to the last post as I find it very... anomalous LOL

Solid-State

Pardon me while I go drop a solid.

Justin, you're ignoring the fact that those measurements published in SoundStage are actually done by the NRC(National Research Council of Canada), which over the past 30 years or so has become recognized as the most experienced and trustworthy independent laboratory testing speakers.

You've obviously bought into a plethora of audio mythologies which have failed when put to the(controlled double-blind listening)test.

John, please explain why Ian introduced the harmonic distortion at 2k with the V2 changes? Perhaps it's an artifact caused by correcting issues from 1k down that plagued the Ti units? The FR is all over the place from 1k down on the old Ti! Sure he fixed this but it added distortion at 2k and I believe it's underplayed by the NRC results. What was the change from ti to v2 anyway? I thought it was mostly a reworked crossover? You know I like the speakers ok... they are good "duty" and a good "price point" and the custom finishes have helped create some lovely installs for me... but what about the VP150 ehh? Why hasn't this product been reworked? I mean with all that test gear and even an environment chamber (toy) and fantastic Anechoic Chamber (not a toy) added in house have not resulted in a design change in a DECADE! They love those Indian metal drivers and have not sourced anything different in a decade and are still using titanium tweeters. The motor design on the tweet isn't of high enough caliber to prevent 2nd and 3rd order harmonics at 25KHz and to source one that doesn't would be hard these days no? OK even in Ian and the boys designed the motor and have tight controls on it's fab I can't help but think it's so... 1980s Is this not why just about everyone else out there at this price point are using silk or something other than titanium? I can tell you the only logic I can come up with why the VP150 driver arrangement still stands is ego... ego like I've been victim to in this forum. If Axiom does all this stringent in house testing with that fancy building and all it's test lab gear why have the speakers not changed fundamentally in a decade in terms of design and materials used?

Solid-State

PS I'm now pulling off the gloves

PPS - You are a very scary and unlikeable internet person.

PPPS - And... Obsessive.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=toggleignore&User=5055

Is the Axiom tweet not a Dayton DC25T-8 ? It looks like they also use Dayton ODM woofers. This is not a good bad thing... just an observation. Owh and it sells for 16 bucks at parts express... Personally I would have used a Vifa D25AG-35 if I liked titanium tweets. It would add 32 bucks to the cost of fabricating the M80v2 though. Again just an observation...

Just like the Axiom philosophy it has a best bang for the buck rating.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=275-045&vReviewShow=1&vReviewRand=2010553

This comment is interesting,
"I experimented with these tweeters several years ago with frustrating results. Although the Fs will allow a crossover point of 3,000 Hz. with a second order filter, the sound quality was sharp, shrill and pingy...very metallic and colored. When I applied it in a smaller 3-way (8"woofer,4"midrange),it sounded very nice crossed over at 5,000 Hz. with a second order filter,although proper attenuation was critical. Several years ago, Bill Duddleston of Legacy Audio used a modified version of this tweeter for his "Studio" model speaker and crossed it over at 2,800 Hz. I,however, would not recommend doing that on this stock model. If you're building a small 3-way and are crossing over anywhere above 4,500 Hz or so, then you can't beat the sound for the price."

And you guys wonder why I worry about the crossover? I really find it funny a lot of you are more concerned about the bracket frays in the M80's innards than a very critical component in a 6 driver 3 way like the M80, the x-over.


Solid-State

OK I'm one click away from purchasing 4 Dayton DC28F-8 to replace the DC25T(S?)-8 I honestly believe these tweeters will satisfy my issues with the M80. I hope the crossover works well with them. I'm sorry if I've been a jerk in anyway or have hurt any feelings. I really love Axiom products please understand that Axiomites. Just not the VP150 or the issues discussed in the thread. I'm sorry if I insulted anyone inside Axiom as well. I totally bow to their engineering prowess and their ability to bring a product to market with such a great price point. I just simply am not religious or fanatical about products like you guys are. And I don't believe most review sites until I hear it with my own ears. Specially with the conflict of interest due to clickthrough profits. You guys ever notice how on the Audioholics website that the "Axiom Audio Epic 80-600 System Review" is still front and center on the index page. Owhh wait it changed from the Epic 80-400 to the 600 system with the bigger sub. I'm not sure why it's been there for two years but it could have something to do with Audioholics sourcing speakers from the mormons and they feel it's a way to "make up" or "olive branch" or perhaps it happened in the other direction and Axiom wouldn't source speakers to Audioholics or perhaps use the CnC mills that bitched my uncle's build... who knows and who cares... All I know is in the end each side loses... no clickthrough profit and no traffic so sales drop. Those friggin mormons... ROTFL that's the reason I'm not religious!

One thing is for certain... these guys are a cut above the $500 buck power cord dudes that's for friggin sure! I dunno if that's saying much though in this brutally dishonest industry. I'll now leave all you guys alone...

Solid-State

Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
-Mark Twain

Apology accepted?

What are the Mormons doing in here? I thought they busy making babies, not loudspeakers.

Can I just say Obsessing much…more? (see how I didn’t exactly repeat myself but made the same point )



Hey I said that first:




Nominated for best post in this thread…you da man Cam!


Concern troll

Damm it evolved before I could post that.

Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate (Figure all of them out yourselves I’m to tired.)

Ok to make this relevant I should say that I just posted this to up my post count and say I told you so.

XXOO

P.S. and to be mean

Well, that was fun! What should we do now?

We could start a “Snowboarding Ninja Turtle” thread and practice arguing about the meaning of life the universe and everything for the next time...cause we sure don’t want to hijack this one how well it’s going and all.

Magnetism might not be the word I'm looking for, this was the theory as they explained it to us at he Smithsonian Aerospace Museum program we attended. Basically what they were explaining was that atoms are attracted to eachother and the more atoms you combine together, the stronger the pull towards another group of atoms.

Of course that was 10 years ago, maybe the theories have changed since then? Lol

Soooooo.... what was Solid State, an Emotiva salesman? Hey I own an Emotiva!

Perhaps that is why my horibly designed speakers work so well?

Might I also point out that the whole 'titanium vs silk' dome tweeter issue is as old as 'Coke vs Pepsi' or 'Nike vs Converse' etc etc etc... There is no 'clearcut' winner in this contest, it's all about personal preference. Titanium produces a crisper, slightly brighter sound, and silk a smoother, warmer sound. But not everyone likes their highs smoother and warmer, nor does everyone like crisper and brighter. Therefore there will always be those that use titanium and others that use silk. But in all honesty you won't find 'that much' difference between a high end titanium tweet and a high end silk tweet. It's really splitting hairs once you enter the high end market.




(sorry fella's, I bit... my appologies, I will bow out now)...

Gravity is a separate force from electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force, and the strong nuclear force. Those are the 4 fundamental forces. Current theory has not successfully unified all 4 of them, although it has succeeded in unifying the latter 3. I believe many current theories postulate gravitons (particles) or gravity waves as the carriers of the gravitational force.

Uh, did I accidentally tune into the Big Bang theory.

I disagree about Titanium produces a crisper, slightly brighter sound, and silk a smoother, warmer sound. The type of material used does not ultimately dictate this. I have listened to speakers tha use silk dome tweeter that have "brighter" sound characteristic. I read this all the time that silk dome tweeters automatically produce smoother highs, this is misinformation and it is also used in the opposite to direction that speakers that use titanium tweeters are automatically bright.

This more has to do with the crossover integration/design with the tweeter. An easy example of what can cause a speaker to be bright is having tweeter level set too high with respect to the woofer.

Coke is better than Pepsi.

This is a cut and paste job but it's 100% the truth.

"Metal tweets have the same drawbacks that metal mids do. While their resonance occurs past the intended frequency range (usually), you still have harmonics (primarily 2nd and 3rd order harmonics) that can excite the resonance of the cone or dome. In midranges, you can cross the driver around 2 octaves below the resonance to counter this. With a tweeter, this isn't possible since you want it to play to 20khz, and resonance typically occurs around 25khz for a 1" tweeter. That is a big reason why metal tweets have the bad rep instead of metal midranges/midbasses. The main thing out there to counter this harsh sound is to have a superior motor design that has very low distortion. Basically, if you're going to get a metal tweeter, either get a really good one or forget it altogether. A cheap metal dome will sound horrible compared to a cheap silk."

Solid-State

No, judging by this thread, it should be the "Big Bong Theory".

What's with you guys?

Are you saying it's BS what I posted?

Solid-State

Ergo, the gravity of the current situation is a force to be reconned with, no?

I'll speak for myself by saying it's more that I don't care.

And hence, it's time for me to ignore the thread and user..

No, its all true. Elvis told me last night.

Fred, that's BS, and you know it.

Elvis hasn't been in Kitchener for nearly two yrs.

Troll

If you want to hear total and utter BULLSHIT check out this review...

http://tinyurl.com/btg9x These items are basically ferrite chokes for $350 bucks USD a piece ROTFL

and this review...

http://tinyurl.com/mxkez9

OK that's a TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR POWER CORD!!!

Are you guys familiar with 6moons and John Potis? You should be as Axiom uses their moniker as a pro review site to market their product.

http://tinyurl.com/jv4sx

Also they use SoundStage for the same marketing purposes. Here is yet another power cord review. This time it's $500 bucks not $2000. What a deal!

http://tinyurl.com/kqvhc9

By pointing this out I'm not trying to trash anybody. I personally have heard sonic change in a system by using better power conductors. Even more with a dedicated 15amp service with an isolated ground using shielded BX. A TWO GRAND POWER CORD though !?! Does this not totally kill any and all credibility? Especially when using the logic so prevalent on this forum used to critique my prose.

Solid-State

What the hell have I done to warrant such treatment? Man you guys are a strange bunch. You guys are acting like a bunch of highschool students. High fives for insulting and attaching me etc. WOW at this point I'm shocked. I'm so turned off actually I want to return the entire 9 grand worth of gear. Call Axiom call Axiom, he won't call Axiom. Ok I'm gunna call them and ask for the whip back on this rig. Do you guys think they will deliver?

Solid-State

The troll sniffed out my post. I want to respond to it but it is just not worth it. Having to do deal with solid state on this forum makes coming here less enjoyable. You are a evil internet person.

Hey medic8r, come to the rescue man!! Throw this guy a free session or sumtin!

Only 'one' session?

A loss leader is sometimes a good decision...there's a BUNCH of potential bucks here...

SS, I will give you one last chance to prove to us that you're not just here to cause trouble. Is this a forum to discuss BOTH the goods and the bads of Axiom products? Certainly it is. Any respectful and intelligent conversations made here will be welcome no matter the content. What isn't welcome is an attempt, whether real or percieved, to slam Axiom, its customers, its products or anything else, merely to get a rise out of people. And although you have thrown up many technical and philisophical points to prove your position, we still don't really even know what that position is... WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US??????

On the one hand you give mighty praise to the M22, the EP500, the QS8's, Axiom's digital amp and even the M60's, then turn around and ridicule the M80's and VP150. But all of these items share the same philosophy, parts and build characteristics, so it looks to anyone reading as if you're only praising these other products to get on our good side so that your arguements about the M80's and VP150 will be heard. But then the arguement you make sounds more like 'THEY SUCK' then anything else.

Everything you've thrown out here at us, and I must say you've done an impressive job at digging up stuff, relevent or not... what does it all mean to you? And more importantly, what is it all SUPPOSED to mean to us??? Because we're not getting it. If you had any intention at all of convincing us we need to modify, or let you modify our speakers, I think you can rule that out. So find another board to manipulate if that's your intention. If it's not, then please, tell us where this is all going an get it over with. The suspense is killing me. With all this experience under your belt installing Axiom products into peoples homes, I would have thought you'd have made your opinions about Axiom long ago. But instead you make it out like you JUST NOW found out that Axiom's suck when doing your uncles install with speakers Axiom stopped making over 4 years ago... how is this possible?

It all adds up to a trouble maker, not a person seeking a legitimate response. If you are even interested in fixing what you feel ails the M80 then you've pretty much gone about it in exactly the opposite way thay you should have. Before you babble any further about the off axis response, the brutally ancient cross-overs or the ridiculous titanium dome tweets... why don't you put your uncle on here to explain how it took 5 years to realize his M80's were shit, and how he felt about them up until you came along? Five years is a long time to live with some speakers that sound as crappy as you make them out to be, what with all the money he must have living in such a lavish neighborhood and all. That's who's opinion I would like to hear before I listen to anything else you have to say.

My bad, after reviewing your posts SS I realize that I was mistaken, for some reason I was thinking you said your uncle had the M80ti's. But it looks like your uncle bought them in 06, sorry. So he's had them for 3 years, not 5, still quite a while to live with speakers that suck. Also as far as your threat of calling Axiom and returning them, I'd say the 30 day trial period probably doesn't stretch out to 3 years, but you can give it a try.

Until then, keep up the good fight.

More 6moons rhetoric and pseudoscience.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/photoncannons/photoncannons.html

An attempt to test product via third party.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/127-swift-november-16-2007.html

More reliable reviews from 6moons. ROTFL

3/4 the way down article begins
http://www.randi.org/jr/081205another.html

Original review
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/jsmr/ultra.html

This is a fantastic article that is fair to both camps.

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/182/

Next I'll find soothsayer articles from Soundstage.

The only reason I'm point this stuff out is because you guys attacked me making out I'm one of the audio fraudsters. Then you guys go about calling me a liar about my Axiom experiences. Then I'm accused of coming here from the competition to trash Axiom. All the time being accused of being a fraudster whilst defending Axiom using sources like 6moons or Soundstage as pro review sites trying to prove I'm an idiot for not being happy with the M80 or VP150. Those soothsaying review site moniker logos are all over the Axiom site used to market the gear.

Can you guys not see the irony here !!!

Solid-State

PS Next I'll target Soundstage's soothsayers sins. And yes we are ALL guilty of it... Again I'll sight my HONEST and no BS mantra "within reason" and "law of diminishing returns"

Yeah I was stupid enough to blame the issues on the Denon AVR-4306 initially driving them. This is why we purchased the A1400-8. Then the blame came to the AVR-4306 converters. He is on the second unit at this time and it still has issues with hum using unbalanced connections even though I believe this rev has the return ground bar. Also I have noticed hum/distortion on a channel that's only populating one speaker level on the Ice module. All I can tell you is my uncle isn't happy with it and hasn't been from day one. He actually hardly listens to it less TV and movies. He prefers his old 25 years system made by Nikko in the 80s purchased at the brick or his logitech PC speakers in his bedroom. I know we should have complained from the get go and had them returned. It was just hard for me to accept because I like the Axiom people. I was blaming his AVR-4306 as a pre for a long time. It wasn't until this week when I was visiting that I really had a chance to sit down and to test these speakers. In the end I found pretty much the same results as Dannie Ritchie. I now know the only way to make the speaker sound how my uncle likes is to sell them off. Thing is that really gets me is the 9 grand Axiom has taken from Stephen's pocket and the unsatisfactory results. I'm also embarrassed with all my excuses for it not sounding right. We should not have to resort to disconnecting one tweeter, cinder blocks and a dedicated PC with Izotrope Ozone to PARTY (perhaps 40%) cure the sonic deficiencies. I'm just crushed and disheartened with this reality and the entire experience.

Solid-State

PS It sure would be amazing if Axiom would return the product. I think Stephen is even willing to take a 10-15% restocking hit to get them outta here.

Post deleted by me.

As JohnK told you earlier solidstate, the measurements are taken independently by the NRC (National Research Council) NOT soundstage, they just publish them. So you spamming links doesn't help your cause, it makes you look like a fool. You have become irrelevant.

I'm really looking forward to football season.

I'll be disappointed when football season starts, because that means racing season is pretty much over.

hello Solid State.

being a manufacturer/OEM reseller i have heard it all. i will try to make you see that you are wrong. I have read your posts and can see you know your stuff with regards to audio. with that said, i am sure with your knowledge of audio, that you must of tried other receivers. it is a natural problem solving equation. if you believe it to be one piece in the chain you replace it. in this case you say you thought it to be the receiver, so you try another one. then of course there is the 30 day trial of the speakers in your house with your equipment. I am sorry, but the strength of your request for an RMA is invalid.

the fact that axiom continues to allow you to stay on the forum says alot about this company.

good luck with your RMA. I don't think you will succeed.

The first chart is done with the "Microphone measuring position: between lower tweeter and upper midrange" at the standard 2m back. Well this is the rather small "sweet spot" on the vertical axis for one thing and off axis the exact height is maintained and only two plots for each publish graph. The first at 15 and 30 then second graph at 45, 60 and 75 (ok they took a third reading at 75). Again it's important to note that the mike height was kept "between lower tweeter and upper midrange". I wonder if the standard practice at the NRC is to measure in a design's sweet spot at what ever arbitrary height that is! I wonder what they do with a book shelf? Do they even do vertical off axis readings? You'd think to really test a 3 way properly you'd have to ehh! I'd also like to know why they used two graphs and not just a single graph with coloured plots. Not a single measurement was taken from various heights. Especially above, below and BETWEEN the tweeters. I wonder what the graph would look like if the reading were taken on the vertical plane owhh wait Dannie Ritchie has.

OK what I suggest you guys do is use a PC and get some kinda tone generation software like TTG and send a tone to the tweets and mids and then stand back a meter or two and bob your head up and down and left and right. I can literally hear the phase issues between the woofer and mids this might be harder for you Luddites. A Luddite can EASILY hear the tweeter to tweeter cancellation, combing and artifacts by moving your head up and down between the two tweeters with any source like a friggin TV commercial. This graph is on the money with my very uncontrolled (I don't have an anechoic chamber) readings.

M80 reading by Danie Ritchie


The deviation with my gear is over 23db !!! SHOCKING

As for the VP150's horizontal off axis deviation goes, it is even worse because it falls right where the human voice sits in the spectra and horizontal off axis performance is very important for a center channel if not critical.

VP150 readings by Danie Ritchie


I wonder why the NRC hasn't tested the VP150? Axiom does publish a freq resp but you had better believe it's dead center on both Axises!

Solid-State

You are a joke dude! You question independent measurements from unbiased 3rd parties but you have the gull to slander a company based on your "golden ear" and what you call "my very uncontrolled (I don't have an anechoic chamber) readings" which make your findings irrelevant. Like I said earlier you are a very evil, evil person. Your actions and words speak for themselves.

I am not questioning the result!!! Are you guys slow? Seriously are you guys damaged in some way? I'm not questioning the results what so ever. I don't think you guys even understand what your looking at! The results are not that different on the horizontal and he even states "Horizontally the response stays fairly consistent with just the top end rolling off and only a minor peak popping up between 2 and 3kHz." It looks more pronounced on Skiiing Ninja graph because the range is 25db where as the NRC graphs have a 50db range so the Ninja graph has twice the granularity on it's plots. It's pretty much the same though and I bet if Dannie Ritchie had set his mike at the same height as the NRC the reading would be the SAME.

Solid-State

PS Man a lot of you act like religious zealots! I feel like Richard Dawkings talking to a bunch of loons that won't accept REALITY!

Why are you in invisible mode? What do you have to hide? Your icon says your offline but it takes 20 minutes after you logoff for that to happen.

I didn't use my ears to take readings you idiot. I used a Galaxy CM-140 with a USB M-audio fasttrack, my notebook computer and software available on the net. And yes I have a calibration file for the mike.

What I was trying to say by talking about my ears is any subjective Luddite should be able to hear what I'm talking about. How you came to the conclusion I used my "golden ear" to take readings is beyond me...

Solid-State

Wow i'm at a loss as to whats going on in this thread, but that was 10 or so pages ago that I posted. I just have one question, i've been reading this and need some clarification, solidstate are you upset that people on the Axiom forum like Axiom speakers? Sorry the products you purchased where definitly not up to Axioms quality. I like my VP150 i'm happy with it and no one is going to tell me that is sounds horrible, I evaluate speakers with my ears not a chart or someones option. If your so uphappy with the recent purchase beg Axiom to take them back and go with another maker. If I buy something thats not quality I'll return it and try again, after that go somewhere else, Paradigm, PSB, Aperion, Ascend, and many other choices. Do us happy Axioms owners a favor and quit telling us how bad our speakers our, yes i've read many reviews on Axioms nothing new. Do I have gripes about Axiom yes (subs need to be almost half the price they are now to be taken serious against the competition), but I don't hammer away on the forum for days, just go to AVS or something.

SS, why is it so important to you to try and convince us of what you believe. Your wasting your time ,seriously you should really talk to someone about getting some medication. Can i call someone for you, your state of mind is of great concern.

peace

He likes to listen to himself.

Ok, I offered to let you redeem yourself and make it clear what your intent was. From what I can make of it (you still didn't exactly make this CLEAR) you wish Axiom would take back your uncle's 9 thousand dollar purchase he made 3 years ago. Now I will say that Axiom is more than fair when it comes to people who aren't happy with their products, but come on, 3 years? Your uncle should have made the decision LONG AGO if he didn't like his speakers. Who knows, perhaps they would have even let him return them after the 30 trial period if there were circumstances such as the issues with the reciever and such that he was dealing with. But you can't honestly expect any company on this planet to take back a product they sold 3 years later right? I mean come on dude, who's the 'slow' one in this conversation if that's what you are after???

Those have a beautiful finish, I'm sure you could put them on ebay or craigslist or something and get pretty close to what you were asking for them. Heck do those mods you were talking about doing and put them up on ebay as "Improved M80v3's" or something flashy like that, get everyone's attention. You could even get crazy and send them off to the Ninja to 'rework' them... oh wait, he refuses to do so... ok scratch that.

At any rate, you can stop teaching us about how crappy ours are, because those M80 owners who were unhappy with their speakers (Bob) have come and gone. They returned their speakers and went with another manufacturer already. Those of us that are left have no intentions of sawing our towers in half to get down to the bottom of the sonic issue's we're having with them because... well, because we aren't having any sonic issue's with them.

I say this with all sincerity, I am sorry your uncle didn't enjoy his Axiom experience. However that is just a reality in this industry, you must have some experience with this. I'm sure you have done an install with speakers that you thought were UNREAL, that blew you away, only to have the owners reject them because they didn't live up to their expectations, no? If not then I would seriously question your credibility as being a high-end audio installer. For if there's one thing that is a certainty, once you get really upscale and pricey, customers get REALLY picky!!! If someone spends ten grand or better on a system and it doesn't completely blow them away, they don't just grin and bear it, they send it back pronto and try something else. If you don't have any experiences like this in your resume, then I'll have to call complete bullshit on your whole story of being a high-end installer. But if you are who you say you are, then like I said, you've seen this plenty with systems you probably would die for, right? Well there you go, I know all of my friends think my system is 'tits', and your uncle's is even better (besides the EP500/800 disparity) what with the A1400-8 powering those bad boys and all. So in your case your uncle has a system that others out there would die for, yet he's not happy with it. That's just the way it goes in this biz. No need getting on that manufacturer's forum and dragging its name through the mud over it is there? I don't know exactly what the issue's your uncle had with them in the beginning, but it sounds to me like Axiom did everything it could to resolve those issue's with him fairly, no? I mean you keep referring to them as 'nice people' and all. So they did all they could do to make things right, if your uncle failed to take advantage of their 30 day trial period, you can't take it out on Axiom.

So take it like a man already would ya, what's done is done. All the plots and graphs you've been throwing up on here isn't going to get you what you want anyway, did you think one of us was going to call Ian up and beg him to take your uncles stuff back for you or something??? Or was it... oh I see now, looks like your intentions were to make such a stink about them that Allen or JC or someone would take them back to shut you up for damage control purposes eh? Ha ha, nice try man. But in order for that to work you have to have been done wrong by Axiom, which you weren't. So you're just spinning your tires in here friend, this ain't gonna get you ANYWHERE!!!

ebay

Craigs list

newspaper add

garage sale

...nuff said

Hope your uncle's next choice satisfies him (and you).

I'm not entirely happy with my 2001 Silverado, do you guys think I should see if GM will take it back?....just wunderin'. Maybe I should go on a GM forum and pretend I'm a GM guy, then inconspicuously start bashing the company and all the forum members, you know, even though I like the guys at GM and say some nice things about them. The trouble is though, the competitors are surprisingly telling me that their trucks are better. Maybe if I do enough whining, Bob Lutz will see it and give me a refund(just to get rid of me).

Hmmm....I have an 18 yr old lawnmower that's caused me some problems too.....

I drank a beer last night that I didn't much care for. What chance is there of any part of the beer making it back into the bottle if my aim is good?

That depends, have you had any practise in such matters?

It's been a few years. I don't do many solo long haul car trips any more.

bbigwyrz should be good at that. He is constantly driving cross country in the big rig.

No no, first saw it in half. Then soup up the engine. Give it a five angle valve job, install Wiseco pistons, fill it with the slickest synthetic oil you can find and for Christ Sakes replace that barbaric paper air filter with an K & N high performance filter would ya!!! After that replace the suspension and the spray the undercarriage. Clean up all the messy welds or any other disparities you can find that they missed on the assembly line, then do your research and find out all of the corrupt websites that were in cahoots with GM by giving the Silverado good reviews dispite the fact that it is totally obvious that it's a complete POS according to all the bigwigs you personally know and rub elbows with in the auto industry while your out golfing together.

That's when you can start posting on their forum. Don't forget to give praise to every other GM car and truck on the market, because after all, it really is a fantastic company, with fantastic vehicles. It's just that the Silverado is an obomination who's design never should have seen the light of day. And anyone who knows ANYTHING about how a truck should work will tell you that.

Dr. Pepper kicks both their……


No Mark don’t go! It’s a keen wit like yours that makes a train wreck like this really worth watching.


Don’t let it win. Yank it’s string instead of letting it yank yours.






I’ll be disappointed because I’ll be watching another Raider loosing season.


Outstanding point!


Weak ego and/or (often one leads to the other) just likes to hook people and string them along. (i.e. trolling)

From a social scientists perspective it’s fun to watch this sort of thing.

Just to keep this on topic:

What all this talk about “Dark Matter” of late.

Don't forget to chrome everything, that's gotta add another 50 HP at least!

Hi: Solid State= Something I got rid of earlier tonight or Solid State= Loose wires!! LOL Sorry couldn't resist saying either one. Not only are Axiom's great sounding speakers at their price point(Or above for that matter) the people that work there are great and honest.I've met Tom Cumberland and while did not fully understand everything he explained to me about amps(showed me the 1400) I found him to be a person with integrity and that is something you(solid state ) seem to lack in spades.Just because you can babble on about technical specs doesn't make you "an expert!!! I've owned mirage,psb,clement loudspeakers all of which are Canadian speakers which have been tested at the NRC( At one time or another in their development) so I guess they also "suck"!!!

Yeah, but it would be even more fun to go on their forum and cry about how ridiculous it is that your Silverado doesn't have any chrome on it when everyone who's anyone puts out trucks chromed from the wheels up (after all, who DOESN'T chrome everything in this day and age??? What the hell is wrong with GM???), wouldn't it?

I think I'll paint the bumpers Forest Green, then chrome everything else just to show the "Homies" something different. Instead of going to 22" wheels, I'll put 25's on and just skip the rubber altogether...of course I'll have to get all my teeth gold-capped to match the rest of the bling.

Skiing Ninja
SkiingNinja
Skiinja
Skinjob

He's a cylon!

Micah, that Silverado analogy was brilliant. Most enjoyable thing I've read in a while. You guys are great, even if you are a bunch of idiotic Luddites.

Don't forget rude!

and slow.

With bad ears!

Thanks, some people just make it too easy

I found this thread after just pulling the trigger on 4300 worth of wood veneer m80/500 speakers. I certainly hope my build quality is better than what was shown in the pics. Also all of the trashing has me worried on my choice. Not exactly what someone who has spent 4300 usd sight unseen wants to hear. I understand Axiom's return policy, but I would probably be out the extra money spent on Oak wood.

Give them a chance, and don't worry. Axiom will definitely take care of you if you have any issues. I've never seen a company stand behind their products like they do.

rvrrat, making other people concerned was the intent of this person's posting here. Certainly the bracing issue of that speaker would upset anyone, but that is certainly an anomoly and is not the norm. The poster, childishly started bashing Axiom and any 3rd party which claimed Axiom speakers make a quality and transparent sounding speaker, not only magazine and professional reviews but also the NRC facility in Ottawa which is world renowned and respected. It appears the speakers were fine for 3 yrs then all of a sudden, they sound like crap...go figure. The issue of the bracing should have been taken up with Axiom in a cordial and professional manner, ie exactly the opposite of how the poster went about business. Axiom is VERY customer oriented and would, I'm sure try to resolve this issue in a professional manner, but it seemed like the person involved may have had some kind of vendetta as opposed to settling the matter at hand that's why he kept posting instead of talking to Axiom.

I too, had some apprehension about spending alot of $$ on speakers I hadn't heard before...that dissappeared quickly when I had everything set up and running just a few months ago. One thing that swayed my purchase probably more than anything else was the overwhelming consensus that these were excellent speakers for the money from both professional and private reviews. You'll always get a few people who don't like what the majority likes, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is when people slam a product that they've never tried or heard and just base it on a rumour or...this sounds harsh, I've never actually heard it before, but some guy on AVS said so(he probably never heard the product either or is an insider).

Again, this issue with this poster is an anomoly and someone dropped the ball on that speaker, but from what I've seen since joining the forum here, I'm sure Axiom's excellent customer service would have made things right GIVEN the opportunity despite the 3yr timing. The owner of the Axiom's clearly liked them, because they didn't return them(or sell them).

As has been said before, you tend to here more complaints than praises on almost any forum of any product. You tend to hear more about problems or issues than anything else on the forums which is common, but you have to sort through the chaffe to make an informed decision. I've never subscribed to any review that I considered "over the top" or too "underwhelming"....take those reviews out of the equation and see what the consensus is.

Don't worry, you'll find a certain amount of trashing on everything when it comes to our wonderfull internet.

Adrian covered things well, but I'll throw one more thought out there:

Note that Axiom doesn't delete threads like this

Note that in the ~5 years I've been here, I've seen maybe three threads like this. One was just like this, with some sort of agenda to rile people up, and the other was someone who legitimately didn't like the sound of his Axioms, which he returned within his 30 days.

Spend some time searching here, and you'll see that it's a great product and great forum members (myself excluded).

Welcome and relax. Chances are 99.5% that you're going to be on here raving about them!

Graphs taken by instruments and the analysis of that data, and the dissection of electronic components to determine if a speaker will satisfy that individual’s preference is insanity. These tools are only useful to the folks who build the damn things. If a person needs a graph or electronic print of the curcuitry to determine if they are going to enjoy a speaker, that person needs to get a life. Listening to the speaker is the only way to determine if it will suit your preference. This isn’t rocket science….. I fail to understand why some insist on making it so friggin difficult.

Don’t listen to the pinheads who need a graph to prove how something sounds, trust your ears. Don’t trust reviews either. There is always an agenda and you will never know what it is. I like to drink wine. I read the reviews and look at the scores, but rarely trust them. I’ve spent thousands and drank many, many + 95 point wines to end up calling them “swill”. It isn’t because the person scoring the wine didn’t like it, it just means I don’t, or the reviewer had an alternative reason to score it that high.

Axiom stands by their product, without question. I can buy what I want, but I continue to buy Axiom and continue to recommend them to others.

If you get your speakers and find you don’t like the way they sound, ask this crowd for some suggestions, as you might just need to tweak your electronics, or you might just need to throw a rug down to find audio bliss. Or, you may end up just hating the way they sound. If you do, send them back and try something else.

rvrrat:

Be not afraid young Padawan, strong with the axioms, the force is.

I'll chime in also. I just recently received a pair of M80's, a pair of QS8's and a VP150. I only purchased the black vinyl but the fit and finish is great. I have to admit that I have not pulled the drivers out of the cabinets to have a look but then again I have no intention of doing that. There may be a gap in the bracing... but I have been listening, listening and listening to these speakers since they arrived and I can't hear any bracing gaps.

I have a house that has an open floor plan and the room I have the speakers set up in is asymmetrical and has 20' ceilings. It is a less than ideal setup for - any - speakers. The Axioms sound great to me, even in this less than ideal space. You will have to make up your own mind whether they sound good to you in your room.

I have been involved with music for 30 years or so as a musician and as a listener. There is nothing wrong with these speakers that I can tell. I'm more of a listener than a looker I guess.

Dude you must have the same level of quality science education (mail order degree from back of a pack of matches) that led to Geoff Kait's AMAZING quantum dot discovery as reviewed by the HONEST peer review site 6moons.com ROTFL

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/photoncannons/photoncannons.html

Owhh wait! Another QUALITY HONEST 6moons.com review for a product you might be interested in. ROTFL
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jsmr/ultra.html

Hey even Soundstage.com gets in on the act...

"Golden Sound products are extremely affordable and offer some of the best value in all the high end" -Soundstage

I guess these "Mini Magic Rings" for $140 USD qualify as "extremely affordable" (two dollar ferrite cores!)

OK enough laughing... This really isn't funny at ALL. These people are charlatans and fraudsters and a lot of what they do IMHO is borderline CRIMINAL.

The other thing I have to comment on is the level of COLLUSION that occurs between manufacturers and so called review sites... At times it even spills off into forums...

And to all you colluders (inventing a word here owhh and you know who you are!)

BLOW IT OUT YOUR A$$ES!!!

Solid-State

PS it never ceases to amaze me how stupid naive people exist and "a sucker is born every minute" But it's not surprising when they have the level of understanding and education that Micah has etc...


Owhh wait

WOW your quite the smoothsayer old Padawan. You should apply for a review job at 6moons.com or soundstage.com or better yet if you know a thing or two about the web you can oversee and admin audioreview.com

And another thing about musicians. Most I've met have horrible hearing. A lot have major hearing damage. Specially after 30 years of being in the business. Eric Clapton, Neil Young, Pete Townshend, Jeff Beck and MANY MANY others have MAJOR hearing damage! To take the word of a musician or anybody over the age of 55 (google presbycusis) regarding subjective speaker audio fidelity is a joke.

Solid-State

Nevermind.

Hey, Solidstate, isn't this your post from 11-25-07 on this forum? It is somewhat verbose, I hope you don't mind my quoting it. Oh, and I made bold the interesting parts so you won't miss 'em.

Quote begins here:

"Greetings,

I was curious if others can post experience with the Belden 13xxA series speaker cable. The various versions of the cable are as follows:

1313A 10AWG 259x34 OFHC speaker cable
1311A 12AWD 168x34 OFHC speaker cable
1309A 14AWG 105x34 OFHC speaker cable
1307A 16AWG 65x34 OFHC speaker cable

I am a small upstart home theater/automation installer and have modeled all of my cabling from Bluejeans and Audioholics testing/suggestions. In other words I use Belden products across the board for most every interconnect. I have been using Belden 5T00UP 10AWG 65x28 ETP speaker cable in combination with WBT knockoff locking banana plugs. In reading posts on other various sites regarding Belden 1313A speaker cable I had to bring some in for testing in my home system.

I first have to comment regarding OFC/OFHC vers. ETP copper. I live in the Gulf Islands on the west coast of Canada. This is a coastal area obviously and a temperate rain forest. It's very humid here and the air is "salty". With that being said I have to post experience with 5T00UP oxidizing RAPIDLY. When I was replacing the 5T00UP with 1313A I was shocked when I looked at the amount and rapid nature of the oxidization on the ETP 65x38 strands. In some places it was almost going green! wow what an eye opener. In looking at another install where I used a big box brand OFC speaker cable using the same WBT knockoff also in an ocean front location I noticed WAY LESS oxidization…

After replacing the 5T00UP with 1313A I gave the system a listen. Hmmm... I won't post any adjectives/BS lingo to describe the difference. In a word... BETTER another word... CLEANER perhaps one more... LOUDER (higher SPL per same location on AVR4306 volume knob). In wondering if it was oxidization on the conductors inside the WBT knockoff locking bananas (GLS audio clones) I in-turn swapped them out for solid copper/gold plated bananas found at monoprice. Again no more adjectives/BS lingo in a word IMPROVED... I could actually hear an improvement listening to tracks I know intimately with changes in banana plug and speaker cable.

With this experience in hand and a hacksaw I cut through a WBT knockoff only to find the thing is made of CHEAP BRASS. I can’t help but wonder what affect the termination (banana used and it’s materials) has on the performance of a speaker cable segment. In my experience it does make a difference. I wonder if Audioholics testing regarding speaker cables had taken into consideration the materials used in the banana plugs and it’s affect on performance. To my ears it does make a difference. I also wonder if any testing can be done regarding the strand count. Belden 1313A is 259x34 while Belden 5T00UP is 65x28. In my experience 1313A sounds better than 5T00UP while using the same solid copper gold plated monoprice banana.

All tests where done with Denon AVR-4306 with Axiom’s flagship theater package. Also of note is the solid copper gold plated monoprice bananas can be stacked. This allowed me to replace the thin bridge plate to the second set of posts on the M80 v2 used for bridging when not bi-amping with a 3” piece of 1313A to another monoprice banana. Again an improvement. I wonder if anyone has even considered the materials (cheap brass/gold plated aluminum) used for banana plugs and binding post bridging plates.

Other please post experience regarding ETP oxidization, cable strand count and banana plug/binding post bridge plate materials and their affect on their system and “audio palate” LOL

Solid-State

PS ok sorry I had to post at least one line of that bourgeoisie fartsy BS "smoothsaying" "

End quote.

Oh, never mind. I probably quoted it wrong, I'm old... and deaf and I don't understand how these here complicated internets work.

Here it’s back posting on Saturday night…and I thought I had sad excuse for a social life.


I thought you were suppose to be Gandalf but now your sounding like Obi-Wan Kenobi and your avatar looks like your doing an Albert Einstein imitation. Are you on witness protection or something?




Well said sir.

If our distinguished guest’s foul language get this poet deleted will I loose the post count I’m racking up here?

No, it's a hemorrhoid reduction program.

I have a nice adjective for his audio palate, choclatey! Unfortunetly solid-state is a victim of the many audio mythologies, re: speaker wire, interconnects.

That would make a good avatar for our troll.

Ok Joe, your screen name is really messing with my dyslexia so if I ever “quote” a response from “Jello” don’t be offended. Caught it this time.



I was going to go with Paranoid schizophrenia

But you’re the doctor.

Actually that WBT knockoff was cheap cast. Again I will sight my two mantras, "Within Reason" and "Law of Diminishing Returns". I don't believe most of that horse poop as you poignantly suggest. This should be obvious with my exposition of pseudoscience audio product companies and said review sites and their obviously questionable journalistic integrity. With regard to the earlier post I was simply pointing out that Belden 5T00UP has given me oxidization problems in a salty, humid environment IE oceanfront. Also I was trying to tell people about the WBT knockoff being made of very cheap cast x metal. Between the oxidation and the change to a copper banana plug the sound changed. This is all I was pointing out. Owhh and also that Belden has another SKU that's OFC that shouldn't oxidize as quickly. Also I was just questioning the fact the 1313A has a higher strand count than the 5T00UP sku I had been using and might sound different. It was more of a question than anything.

Basically I was trying to say, "Hey guys I swapped some Belden 5T00UP that was oxidized with knockoff WBT bananas for some Belden 1313A with copper plugs and noticed the volume increased and it sounded better." To use that to put me in the same league as the people I sighted earlier is such a troll. Why are you guys egging me on at this point? You are not helping your cause. What ever and whomever that may be.

Solid-State

Hey Grunt, it's all good. I'm hard to offend and I'm just trying to have some fun. I enjoy your posts. Feel free to call me whatever.

Anyway, this whole thing, it smells like teen spirit (if you catch my drift).

I am the Doctor. Wait, no I'm Gandalf, no wait... I'm Batman.

Man I have been laughing my ass of at Machinadynamica... is it for Real or is it PARODY?

And laughing and laughing and laughing!!!

OMG It's gotta be a parody site ROTFL

Geoff Kait...

Geoff Kay...

hmm...

Jeff Kait... "have I heard that name before... hmm..."

JeffK !!! AHAHAHAH I remeber JeffK the l33t Hax0r ROTFL LOL LOL LOL

In case you don't know the Hax0r Jeff of somethingawful.com fame

Ok please tell me this is a parody site...

I find this...

form talk...

Then this!

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Geoff+Kait&meta=

If it's not parody or some-kinda strange masonic audio industry insider ongoing joke (with complimentary $$$ stream) I don't know what to say other than it's the funniest serendipitous irony I have ever encountered!

Plus it's really taken the edge off this roller-coaster ride of a forum encounter! (I really did seriously laugh for 20 minutes LOL)

Solid-State

Positive-feedback.com attempting to save face ROTFL

Axiom! I'm sorry if I've hurt you in any way! I really do like your speakers! Well all but one really... with another "audiophile" critique on vertical axis and cancellation/combing artifacts on one other model.

As anyone can see, from prior posts, I placed them on cinder blocks and it helped a lot. With the ear at the NRC mike test height the M80v2 does sound good but they have to be on cinder blocks LOL. Ironically in fact I think the strange tweeters dispersion/cancellation/interference pattern actually works with his crazy room acoustically ROTFL. If I post shots at 180 the other "pinheads" will understand why.

I do feel Axiom is an upfront honest company with the best attitude towards pleasing customers in the business. With my seemingly plethora of problems (other seem to think I claim) I can attest to that.

I just can't help feel disappointed that Axiom associates with some questionable review sites that give clearly pseudoscience audio products very positive reviews. It takes away the validity that Axiom do in fact make a great product. A great "bang for the buck" with "good duty" that will blow the doors off of pretty much any box-store product at it's price point. Also they have a neat production/assembly marketing model that allows for all these fantastic custom finishing possibilities whilst keeping the price down.

ARGHH! would the webadmin turn that bloody UBB.threads edit timer off!




Really nobody reading this should be concerned they are not going to get a decent product with fantastic support. I just don't believe this is entirely the case with one product and I have a personal dislike for another. As for the other products in the line... FANTASTIC! The bookshelves are great speakers, especially the M22s the rears work well and the subs are outta this world good. This is complete and utter honesty here. What others seem to have made it out to be is nothing other than twisting the truth, misquotes and being personally slanderous. All my complaints were valid and within reason as any sensible person can see from my experience and pictures documented on this thread.

It really started to get nasty when the personal attacks, name calling and belittling began and I got pissed. I said I was talking off the gloves! (I also said prior I wanted to nuke this thread as not to hurt Axiom remember!)

It's like with a girlfriend/wife fight right. Sometime you say things you feel that you wouldn't have otherwise said. This doesn't mean the things you said were not how you feel and perhaps event the truth. The thing is this is a forum and you guys are not my girlfriend/wife. So really a lot of my treatment should be an embarrassment to you guys on here and for that matter Axiom though I do understand they can't control user demeanor.

Name calling is rather childish though isn't it? At no point did I name-call or resort to poopoo jokes, rectums or innuendo. Owhh wait I did once when I called that KC133 unlisted guy he was an idiot when he figured he understood electrical gravitational coupling or something to that affect.

Anyway... what more can be said?

Justin

PS I'm thinking of getting in the after market "high end" audio product segment. I was thinking of marketing my cinder blocks for use as M80 "enhancers" that use "electro gravitational force". Heck I can just paint them with that Krylon plastic paint and glue magnets on the sides. I'll ask $250 a pair and make a killing. Perhaps I can even get a "designed for Axiom" moniker for my website and maybe even soundstage, 6moons or possitive-feedback(thompson should sue your asses for the logo) ones as well. One thing though... the shipping will be a bitch for the bottom line!

I went to see the Seahawks beat the Broncos last night. Good game, for preseason.

I can't hear any bracing gaps in my M60's either, Joe.

Always a good game when the Broncos lose.

There is wisdom in that humor. Nice One!

Heya Micah,
You may very well be right because nothing has been proven yet. Gravity is still very much a collection of theory from what I have read and viewed. Oddly, I have a brain that struggles with heavily advanced math, but is always intrigued with the more theoretical side of physics.

A couple of interesting side notes on it then we can get back to the regular thread (which is starting to give credit to Chaos Theory advocates, by the way. ) I once read a paper (OK skimmed it because the math was beyond me) that argued that gravity was a complete abnormality in the universe because if it followed the regular laws of physics in regards to magnetic and other theories of know electrical attraction, the ratio of gravity would astronomically larger than it is for a mass such as our planet and we would all be crushed by the force. In fact, it argued that gravity is the weakest force in the universe. Hard to imagine as I desperately try jumping in the air in an attempt to fly. (Stupid evolution, didn't give us wings.)

Of course, a counter theory is still just a theory, but it made for an interesting argument. I searched online for the article after hearing the argument on a TV documentary.

Another interesting theory is that matter 'bends' space around it. Thus creating a bowl effect but in all dimensional directions. Hard to understand unless you picture it in 2d. Picture a ball sitting on a sheet of clear plastic wrap . It's presence, bends the plastic downward and creates a crater effect. Now picture a smaller ball placed on the plastic, it would fall to the middle towards the bigger ball. The bigger ball might even move towards the smaller a bit, depending on the ratio in sizes. If you threw the smaller ball sideways on the plastic, it would start to circle and slowly drop, decaying orbit.

Of course, doesn't this assume gravity, rather than explain it? Maybe but then you have to picture it with the bend occurring in 3d in all directions simultaneously. Harder to visualize. The theory is that it this bend in space itself that changes the path of another object, thus creating gravity. It also took some reading to understand why it argued that a ball with more mass would create a bigger bend than than an equally sized ball with less mass. I'm still struggling with that one but that is where the math comes in, so I will take their word for it, at least as a theory.

Again, another "theory" out of several but an interesting one because we can visualize it without having to understand electromagnetism or without the aid of advanced mathematics.

String theory has it's own theory of gravity as well, but I don't think I have thought about that one enough yet to try and describe it.

There, not only have we derailed this thread but we have derailed the cosmos!!!!! Muuhuuhhahahahahaha

General relativity (the bending space thing) described as the 2D rubber plane with the ball on it is a 3 dimensional representation of a 4 dimensional phenomenon, much like a drawing of a cube is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional object. That's how I got my head around it, at least. Similarly, the description of space warping as a balloon is also a 3 dimensional projection of a 4 dimensional (theoretical) phenomenon.

General relativity is pretty well proven, but you're right, the mechanism behind it doesn't square with the quantum models that are out there, which are similarly well proven.

HOLY CRAP! Did you just solve the conflict between the principle of gravity and the principle of magnetism? If only Einstein had been so lucky he may not have spent his whole life [well, 1929 to death] in search of the Unified Theory...and more importantly, I could have just read one theory of his and skipped all the wine needed to shake out of my funk over my minimal contribution to this world.

Further to your point, many versions of a 'Grand Unification Theory' doesn't even include gravity because they couldn't make it fit. Kind of making it a failure on the 'grand unification' bit. There are some versions of GUT that include gravity as a constant but all versions include many variables that need to be tweaked for different 'situations' to make it work. In fact, one might even surmise that if we can actually figure out gravity, we might be very close to proving which school of physics has been correct all along.

Of course, I'm so under-qualified to comment on such things that I probably shouldn't even be trying to post such information. But, it's fun to ponder sometimes, even if we will never be the ones to figure it all out. In short, all I really wanted to do was comment on how gravity is actually the thorn in the side of physicists everywhere.

I prefer the String Theory since it seems to blend the wave and particle theories into a musical format. And yes, I fully understand the key 9th dimensional aspect of the theory. It's really not that hard once you get past that pesky 4 dimension limitation...and who has not gotten past that.

The answer is 42.

That the answer is 42 is beyond doubt. What everybody can't seem to agree upon is the units. 42 what?

I always thought the answer was pretty clear just that the question was harder to figure out.

42 courics?

I don't know that but I do know where my towel is.

And I have my 3 pints.

42 pages?

(Hopefully this thread dies before then...)

Katie Courics?

bump for the trolls

Lol, ok ok, well the explanation they gave didn't seem very hard to understand. Now you guys have gone and made me realize that what I thought I understood for ten years now is in fact false... THANKS A LOT!!! You could have let me live in ignorant bliss you know, that was way easier than trying to understand all this stuff you guys are throwing out here at me!!!

What a bunch of party poopers!!!

Just ask the dolphins.

How in the world did I miss this thread?

To solidstate...

Look man, we all have different opinions on what's good and what's bad. Speakers, vegetables, beer, cars, bathroom tissue, fishing lures, etc. A lot of us are going to go to bat for Axiom because the majority of us here are happy Axiom owners and this is, after all, a forum about Axiom products. Go to any forum about any brand of speaker|car|weed whacker|ice cream and post that you don't like their speaker|car|weed whacker|ice cream and see what happens. People are going to disagree with you, simply because it's human nature. Did some people here take your comments a little to personally? Probably. Did you overreact? Probably.

I don't question your intentions, nor am I going to call you a troll or launch into any sort of philosophical/scientific debate over the pros and cons of gravity, LED's, glue, or whether or not $500 power cables make one iota of difference. I, at least, appreciate the pictures and the lively debate.

But at the end of the day, the simple fact is this - you/your client spent $9,000 on Axiom gear and you/your client are not happy. Sorry to hear it, but it happens. The good news is that Axiom has their 30-day return policy. Call them. Send it all back. Return the stuff and buy the {insert brand here} speakers that you (or your uncle) really want. No harm, no foul, lesson learned. Go in peace.

It's been three years already Peter.

Other Peter here.

First, figure out how to reverse the flow of time far enough so that you re-enter the 30-day return period. Then return the Axioms.

And remove all the posts in this thread.

I was unaware of that bit of information. In that case.... WTF!?

It was to stay all under my hat until I took at good look at the cabinets, did some research on some review sites and their professional journalistic practices and came here for abuse. Then when I used my notebook and gear and found the same properties for the VP150 and M80v2 as Dannie Ritchie reported I was pissed. I always noticed the strange off axis (both vert and horizontal) performance of the M80, VP150 front concert but it wasn't really until I used my gear, sent some emails and made some phone calls... I had an understanding as to why. Then I looked inside each cabinet and really got MAD. From there it just got worse reading http://www.6moons.com GLOWING reviews on http://www.goldensound.com fraudulent and pseudo-scientific products like the gigahertz tweeter and $130 ferrite chokes. It was the reviews on 6moons.com with it's multi driver collage "money shot" and audioreview.com that made me pull the trigger on my uncle's gear in the first place. After a critical review and a little research (archive.org) that I really began to realize the level of collusion going on here. This is when I really just wanted to get rid of the lot... and the ranting began. I feel betrayed. Not quite as bad as some dude selling me "high end" speakers from a van in the pub parking lot... None the less betrayed.

Solid-State

PS though not as bad as buddy at positive-feedback.com (Thomson should sue your ASS OFF) ROTFL http://tinyurl.com/nmdpgg gees at least I'm not making the excuse of a "couple beers going to my head er... EARS" ROTFL

Ok, so this may have gotten lost somewhere in all of these posts, but what exactly was the problem with the inside of your m80s?

Solid, it's against forum rules to post that you have items for sale.

Good. You've got it all figured out. Now piss off and sell your gear.

I like hanging out here. I don't like your crap. I have better things to do with my life. Its sad that you don't.

Altered State is quite the drama queen isn't he?

Here is an review by the late John Potis that I found interesting. He mentions certain people who upgrade crossovers with megabuck components and questions the intent of such mods. You have to read down a ways before you get to the part on crossovers.

I really believe we need standards. Just like Mr. Toole helped created to measure a speakers performance, but only for audio reviewers. It should start with each going to an Audiologist and having their hearing "qualified" via a hearing screening with full Weber and Rinne tests LOL I'm DEAD SERIOUS. In all honesty I believe most over age 50 would fail any such "qualification" or "standard". This would include Mr. Toole and perhaps even Ian Colquhoun as well as the "old boys club" and the whore audio journalist community that follow them around. Considering most are over the age of 55 most would fail my "standards".

Solid-State

PS They should also go to the doctor and get the cerumen cleaned outta their ears as most "high end" audio clowns I saw at CES had their ears full of it! Serious I looked when they were talking BS to an unsuspecting customer from the side! AHH AHAHAHAH ROTFL

Can you give me some advice on taking a proper solid-state . I seem not be qualified to take one. We all know that your are the expert on ears and #$%holes. What are your standards? Lately there has been lots of wiping but it never seems to be enough. I can't seem to get rid of it, and when I am done there is a bit of pain and it will linger for hours sometimes days. What am I doing wrong?

Houston, we have a Solid Waste Management problem.

http://positive-feedback.com/Issue17/auroville35.htm

I guess we should all just think of our sonic tastes like taste in various strains of marijuana as this clown suggests. And that those of us that have a problem with FRAUD and COLLUSION just haven't been laid by our rigs. Yeah that's it pal... I'm upset because I haven't been laid by my rig or smoked the right weed...

Solid-State

Haldol

Solid State,

you are exhibiting extreme emotional or giddy disturbances related to audio-bable-itus. this is a rare STD usually transmitted while listening to speakers on cinder blocks. this is what probably lead you to believe your delusional world of FRAUD and COLLUSION and seems really real to you.
I recommend the following;
valium, tamsulosin, lorazepam, temazepam, clonazepam, trazodone and tizanidinere.
this should put you to sleep for about a week. this will also induce an intense desire to get away from the family right now.
when you awake the psychosis should disappear and you will have forgotten your mishap at your uncles home.

hahah!

Now that's FUNNY!

Solid-State

Not nearly as funny as that little comedian you sat on.

What do you call the condition that lead to the Intelligent Chip fiasco? And what meds do they need? Personally I don't think it's meds. An ear test and cleaning YES! Meds... no

It could be to much beer and cheer (for some a toke) as some excuse... For me I was dazzled by the collage of woofers and tweeters at 6moons.com

We all have our crutches and poisons.

Solid-State

A little late with the answer to this but... it's 42 BEERS.
According to studies by Respected Canadians Bob and Doug McKenzie ,The method for converting to metric units is to "Double it and add 30" Therefore a six-pack in metric would equal 42 METRIC beers. EH.

There, I crapped in this pool too.

Hey my X took that one.

I also believe in standards. Especially for a person that claims to be a "home theater/automation installer" and has no idea of how to troubleshoot a ground loop.

Like in this post.

ROTFLMAO deafly.

Kind of like what the M80 owners constantly try to do to us M60 owners, perhaps????


Muhhuuhhahaahahahaha. Revenge is best served.....on anybody.

solid I am sorry I called you a troll.

I think we all need to realize that we are talking to a very "special" individual and should treat him as such.

There There solid.

Solid,

I'm just curious who you are. You talk about your experience and the people you know but you come across like you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. Are you even 20 years old yet?

Jollo, I think you stole dewd's Avatar...

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. He doesn't even seem to know how much the rug tied the room together.

I'm calmer than you are.

I believes in nussink.

I see nussink, I hear nussink.

You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me.

Solid State is the ultimate oxymoron... on the one hand he completely slams the notion of a two thousand dollar power cord as 'ridiculous'. Then in the same breath swears that a $300 dollar 'wonder clock' will take your miserable 1080p Blu-ray picture (after all, they are soooo distorted and blurry usually) and transform it into a totally three dimensional image.... so good in fact that you will have the ability to walk right inside of your television and watch the action in person!

Ok, perhaps that's a bit over the top.

But he does trash the M80 and ALL of its design ideals, it's build quality, its trashy cross-over components, the way it shatters sonic waves so completely that you can't even hear them 10 degree's off-axis (I'm embellishing again aren't I?)... and then heaps praise on... wait for it... the M60!!! Because as we all know, these two speakers share absolutely not one iota of anything between them. They are as opposite as ying and yang. Uh-hu.

Or there's the niceties he saturates the Axiom people with every chance he gets, "those are seriously great people, willing to do whatever they can for you, they all have my utmost respect"... all of them that is, except for Ian and his raging ego that's tanking the company at an unprecidented rate since he just won't listen to reason and design his flagship speakers the way other companies think he should be build them.

Which of his views are we supposed to be following anyhow? Is there a decoder ring in my Fruit Loops box this week that I can use to decifer which of his theories is the real deal and which are just 'stuffing' to fill up this site's bandwidth???

Here we are trying our best to derail this thread and then you come along and start talking about "that guy" again.

Hey, I'm just doing my part to see that this thread surpasses the mighty 'Bob' thread!!!

I think we should save our really long threads for beer instead of trolls. Beer tastes better.

Troll’s good eatin’ these parts. Has the consistency of raw squid but it’s gamey rather than sweet. Have to cook it or the damm stuff tries to regenerate. Goes good with an IPA as the bitterness offsets it’s gamey flavor.

I believe this says it all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

QuadPolars are more envelopping.

I believe this says it all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
_________________________

............Solid

You guys managed to provoke me to the point that I insulted the entire "insider" audio community. Considering most are over 55, don't ride Kaiwasaki Ninjas or listen to Megadeth, I'm sure I'm now a Hieratic. I'm sorry I don't understand your crowd here Axiom... I never sold A/V gear at Futureshop to these types so...

I'm very sorry for the insults to the "insiders". As for you "Axiomites" here... I don't know what to say! We've ALL behaved like jackasses.

I just can't play on this Astroturf anymore. I'm likely to break an ankle and ruin my career.

Goodbye, fairwell, until we meet again! DOH!
HOPEFULLY NOT!

Solid-State

Its all good!

Who wants to start a pool that "he" posts again soon?

Do we go for 15-minutes increment? 10-minutes?
Who wants "in the next 10 minutes"?
10+-20 minutes?
20+-30 minutes?
30+ minutes? (only one slot required).

:::keying looney tunes music here with closing credits:::

It's not astroturfing when you come to a company's own forum and people are speaking highly of the product. Astroturfing is when someone representing a company is acting like a grassroots movement on unrelated forum. Trying to convince the people... Oh he's gone? Yay!

I'm sorry that joke needed a butt, nothing personal you know, but the irony was just too sweet to pass up. You have to admit, a bunch of jokers on a speaker fourm and someboy says "it aint that difficult" about a concept that Einstein and Hakings could not work out - that's funny stuff!

[I did not spell cheek this to offer your a chance at a return volley! ]

Nah, I asked for it!

Agreed

I am surprised no one remembered my posting about my M22 Ninja mods and findings I did awhile back. Problem is the Ninja XO is set lower than the stock M22 so it obviously sounded different. I still haven't found any scientific evidence that show 'audio quality' caps, cores etc, improve sound quality. And in my experience with my Paradigm Monitor 11 and later a Studio 100 comparison to the M80s, I couldn't hear much difference between the Studio's and the M80s, while the Monitor 11's lacked the extra detail the M80's have, so I can now presume Paradigm is using low quality XO's as well, going by the logic I have read in this thread.

This hobby is very simple, listen to what your ears are telling you and nothing else.

I remembered your review but didn’t see the point of dragging a good review into the mess it was obvious this was going to become. This guy was trying to bait people from way back when he first joined.

OTOH I wish the Ninja would have just backed off from the start and waited until a review independent of him, like yours, was done to lend some credibility to what he was doing. As far as I was concerned the original thread was all theoretical, and whether intended or not amounted to a bunch of free advertising for him until you posted your review.

My biggest problem with him from the start was who he was already doing business with. There is something to be said about the company one keeps.

It’s a credit to Axiom that they let threads like that and this one stand for all to see.

Kewl

So you bought some nija x over's? Why , was there something lacking or just curiosity. Also do you still have m22's and if so which x over are you using now.


peace

Just curious and my M22s are old enough to no longer have any warranty. I stuck with the stock M22 as my M22s are slightly more forward/detailed than the v2s and sounded smoother than the Ninja's.

I did send the XO's to Ian and he did some testing. He did say they were well built but did lower the power rating a little as more energy was being sent to the tweeters with the lower XO point. Ian said he did some blind testing and the consensus was the stock M22 was preferred which was a similar result to my experiment.

Amen.

My problem with "ears alone", is that is very rarely the case. Unless you are able to conduct a proper double-blind listening test (you don't know which component you are listening to, and the person making the change has no possibility of communicating this to you either), your mind will often mislead and you'll "hear" the dollar signs or some other factor which really doesn't exist.

So I agree, one should trust their ears alone, but make sure that's what you're really trusting.

Oh sure! The Ninja sneaks out the side entrance, so some freakin' Zombie climbs in the window to stir the pot some more...

I'm no ninja or zombie. I'm a pirate. Yarrr!

Hey Fred, I thought your buddy (just kidding) SS was omniscient in all things audio with leading industry experts on speed dial. Why would he need to post asking what speakers to “upgrade to” from his Axioms? Suspicious…



http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=618159&highlight=axiom#post618159

Was he really old enough to register there in 2005?

Looks like he’s also making friends over there.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=618218#post618218

Thank you for this.
I will be wearing a smile for the whole morning!
That was entertaining.

I hoped someone else would get a kick out of it. Nobody posting over there right now but since he’s got the last post in several threads now and is playing the same game as he did here of pretending to be cool while taking pot shots at people I think it’s going to get even more interesting. I just hope he doesn’t get banned too quick cause I want this to last.

Besides the wire thread I’m not sure which others will go south (probably all) but if you check out his profile you can pull up all his posts once things start rolling today.


Grab some popcorn and have fun watching.

If I hear him say, "laws of diminishing returns & within reason apply" one more time, I'm going call his mother and tell her to ground him from the computer for a month!

I don't have an account there, but someone needs to ask him to expound upon the differences he's observed with replacement power cords. That's what got him on my ignore list here, and I'm sure it'll go over even better at Audioholics.