I finally received my first set of Axioms...my pair of M60s in Cherry Chestnut semi gloss came in after about a month of waiting.

I can't see how I've gone so long now just using my TV speaker...I've owned my Pioneer Kuro 8th gen 60" plasma for about 1.5 years now and have only used the TV speaker. Finally decided to invest in some good sound equipment and I'm realizing now what I've been missing out on.

WHAT A WASTE OF MOVIE/GAMING/MUSIC/TV TIME NOT USING THE PROPER SPEAKERS!

I do have to confess though that it seems that something's missing, though I realize without the center and surrounds yet that I can't really get amazing sound right now. I'm having trouble not understanding but properly hearing dialog in movies without turning the volume up really high (then turning it down quickly when an explosion or any loud bass occurs hehe.) I'll be ordering the QS8s and VP150 center within the next couple weeks and am looking forward to finally having a good 5.0 system-- can't get a sub in this apartment

Congrats, Crimson! That's a really nice finish on those M60s.

Congrats!

Does not sound like your ordering from the outlet? If so, you get 10% off, plus 5% if you order 5 items at once, better than ordering at seperate times with no discount.

Yes, using Phantom Center mode (simulaged by the mains) will not work as well as a independent center like the 100 or 150. The reason is when you calibrate your speakers, you adjust each speaker independently. Righ now your mains are playing double duty.

Dude, of course he didn't order from the outlet, he's got VaSSallos!

Yeah the absence of the center channel is bugging me so bad that I'm seriously contemplating which to get first, the surrounds or center. Most seem to say surrounds are the natural next step, but I dunno...I'm sure my music will sound much better and clearer with the center. I would just save for another 6 weeks or so and maybe get the rest all at once, but I'm too impatient Plus I need to find a better mounting alternative than the floor stands for the QS8s...I just can't see spending almost $300 for stands.

I just moved out of an apartment after 5 years so I feel your pain. Here’s a couple thoughts that might help out.

Not sure what receiver you have but it’s likely to have a “Night” mode or some other dynamic range control. While this is not ideal for sound reproduction it may help while you live in an apartment. With this engaged it compresses the dynamic range so that the lowest low and highest high are closer together in volume. It’s essentially doing what you are doing manually right now. As Randy said once you add a center you will have even more control over dialogue volume vs music/background volume. But you may still find in an apartment that dynamic range control is still necessary if you want to avoid bumping the volume up and down.

Not sure but it looks like you have some room to play around with placement. You will get a better soundstage by moving the M60s further out from the front wall. Even a little bit can help a lot. Also by getting them out in front of the screen it will also help the dialogue sound clearer especially while using a phantom center. The reason is you are getting boundary effects from both the wall and the screen which colour (proper spelling ) the sound you are hearing. Also getting the speakers further away from the wall should reduce some of the “boomyness” in the bass so that explosions sound clearer to you and wont carry through the walls as much.

Additionally if you can move them farther apart w/o something blocking them from your listening position it will likely improve your front soundstage and may even help you get a better “simulated” surround effect by getting more sound going around your and reflecting off the side and back walls.

Experimenting around with your speaker placement could pay huge dividends in sound quality. You may even decide it’s worth rearranging your room to accommodate it.

If you plan on being in the apartment for some time you might consider getting a tactile transducer. I got a Buttkicker and could never have lived in an apartment for that long w/o it. It’s will make up for not having a subwoofer and if you mount it directly to your seating will not project sound into adjacent apartments.

Cheers,
Dean

Those speakers look too good for low quality pics, you need to snap some higher rez ones!

It's been mentioned but ensure you've gone into your receiver settings and selected the Center channel as None or Phantom for now.

And better pics...

Yep. Redo the last shot with a little more light on the speakers so we can drool over (but not on) the finish.

I was impressed at how good the dialog was with just the M80s when I turned off the center for a test. Dean is probably onto something with positioning.

FWIW, the permagrin wears off at around 8 months, but the amazing sound just keeps impressing.

It sounds like you have your system setup for more speakers than you have. You need to go into your system setup in the receiver and turn off all the speakers you don't have. It sounds like your reciever thinks you have a center channel and surround speakers but you don't, so you are losing the sound it sends to those missing speakers.

You should be listening to everything in stereo mode. I use stereo mode all the time and don't have any issues hearing voices on m60s. You've got the speakers, now the other 90% of audio is proper setup. Read your manual or the internet for setup instructions.

You should be quite pleased with the bass from the m60s for movies in an apartment. It doesn't shake the walls, but you can definitely hear the bass.

Yeah sorry for the pics...my camera phone is all I have to take pics with and it can't take really good ones...also the lighting in that room is terrible even in the best conditions. I kind of regret not getting the high gloss now, but ah well...if I get it in the surrounds and center though it probably wouldn't match.

I have the Pioneer VSX-919AH, and yes it is set up properly for my speaker placement and for the absence of the center. Like I said, it's not a problem of clarity as they are very clear, but it's a problem of volume. On TV and music it doesn't seem to be a problem, but when I play a Blu-ray movie or game on PS3 it seems to be an issue, but not one that's too terrible really. Possibly a PS3 issue I'll have to look into. And I agree about the bass on these...it's perfect for my apartment (not too much but definitely there.)

As for placement, I really don't have much room to work with here. It's actually a small room at only 15x14x8, and what I have/will have be overkill even, though I plan on moving out of this place next year and hopefully into something bigger and more HT friendly. The very end of the right side of the first pic is where the wall and the front door is, so I really can't move them much further apart. I did move them further away from the back wall as they were less than an inch away. It does seem to help with the bass a bit as to not booming the walls as much (very paranoid about disturbing neighbors..will be a less paranoid when lease comes close to expiring hehe.)

Crimson:
Welcome to the forum....gorgeous finish on those speakers!

Many of us with center channel speakers find dialog is much more intelligible if we set out receivers to "bump up" the center channel output by a couple of dB. I realize you don't have that option, but I point it out because I believe on many TV shows and movies, dialog is mixed in a little low.

I first became aware of it with "ER" where the actors dialog wasn't always crystal-clear especially in a trauma scene. I think the management did that to help increase the feeling of realism.... that sometimes people DO talk over one another and don't speak clearly. I've seen it more and more over the last ten years or so.

Or, I'm getting old.

Point being, I'm not surprised that there are times when the dialog gets buried a bit when using Left and Right speakers only in "phantom center" mode.

Here's a question that's on-topic for the thread: Are there any receivers that allow you to adjust output level on a channel that doesn't exist?

We have a winner!

Did u say your plasma was 15 years old???

He likes breathing sawdust.


I think he meant his 'athsma' is 15 yrs old.

Note the decimal between the 1 and the 5, indicating 1.5, or 1 1/2 years. Yay for math

My sincerest appologies my man, I was reading this post on my Blackberry and the decimal was totally unreadable. I figured it had to be a typo or something, turns out it was just my phone, my bad.

I am so jealous of the VaSSallo finish, they look awesome

If the receiver is set up correctly why shouldn't he use DD or DTS for movies and games? What benefit is there of using stereo?

I know someone who has a plasma which is getting close to 15 years old. It is a 1st gen Pioneer, still works just a little dimmer than it was when new.

He wants to get a 100+ inch plasma to replace it, but can't find anyone who will sell him one.

Hi Crimson,

As Mark has correctly pointed out, dialog is often mixed at too low a level not just for TV shows but movie soundtracks as well. If you are having real trouble understanding dialog using the stereo (no center) mode, I recommend you get a center channel before you get your surrounds.

I routinely run my center channel speaker at +4 or +5 dB louder than the other channels. One of the reasons for low dialog mixes is that the director and sound editors know the actors' dialog backwards--they've been editing and hearing the same scenes over and over during the show or movie's assembly. I was present for a feature movie mix session at the Alfred Hitchcock mixing theater in Hollywood, and it was clear to me at the time that the dialog was not mixed loud enough. All the discussion centered around how loud to mix a crow cawing in one of the surround channels during an outdoor scene. I felt like saying, "Forget about the crow; I can't hear what the actors are saying!"

It's a huge advantage of Dolby Digital to be able to bump the dialog channel up in level, if necessary.

The Vassallo finish you got looks really nice.

Regards,
Alan

Wish there was an easy way to boost the center channel, like a 1 button deal. I guess I should look into faking up a macro on the Harmony.

My reaalllly old Onkyo receiver has a button on the remote for the center channel level. I always liked that feature.

The 2808 and probably most of the Denons give you a button to get immediate access to channel levels. I don't find I need to bump the dialog very often. In some movies with very quiet dialog I occasionaly struggle. Now that I have the Denon its not that hard to bump the dialog.

Ken, my Denon allows me to easily ajust the levels of any of the speakers from the remote, you can't do that?

He is talking about having a single/dedicated button(s) up and down to adjust the centre channel without having to select the channel first.

pretty easy, you hit the "Main" button on the remote twice to get to the center, then go up/down to adjust the levels, not that hard.

Tell that to other people in my house. I want a button that boosts it by, say 3 db and then unboosts it. One press. I don't have a problem doing it, but...

Oh boy, do I know how ya feel.

Let me be clear: we shouldn't have to press 6 buttons to improve dialog. There should be a button to do that. Sure, we can, but why should we have to?

It is called Audyssey my friend, just put the remote down, recline, and enjoy.

So you're saying with Audyssey, you never, ever have to boost the center channel for dialog?

I think he is.

That Audyssey can do no wrong in sirquack's eyes is... odd to see.

The whole point of Dynamic Volume....put the remote down and enjoy.

Dynamic Volume

My 17 year old Onkyo dolby pro logic receiver has dedicated buttons for both the centre channel and surround adjustment and it is a really cool feature. More controllers should be designed like this. There are so many other buttons on my Denon remote I would replace with those even though it still simple to do on my Denon.

Well, now, Dynamic Volume, that's a whole 'nother bag of worms. That said, I'd be happy with that, too.

Works as advertised on the Denon AVR-590! Great piece of technology.

To the OP, those are some slick looking 60's!

I can tell you one thing Ken, I used to grab my remote often during a movie. Turning it up to hear the dialog, then back down during explosions. Now I just enjoy my beer.

Sounds like someone here needs to invent a better remote. The cool thing about the remotes that come with most of the higher end Denon's at least (don't know what the lower end Denon's supply you with) is that you can create just about any button you please to do whatever you want with...

I have my VP150 turned up about +3, the M80's up to +5, and never have the slightest problem with understanding dialog in tv or movies.

Two options for a 1 button solution (Audessey aside) to adjusting center channel.

1. On my URC 300 remote, it was relatively simple to program a macro to accomplish this task via the Denon speaker setup buttons. I then labeled a button "Movie" and another "Music". I find I prefer sending the extra volume back to my mains for music.

2. When my remote memory got wiped while it sat packed away awaiting our new house to be built, I tried a second method. I used the multiple user feature on my Denon. User 1 had the center boosted for movies and User 2 had it equalized for music. Again, I just labeled the buttons Movie and Music on the touch pad.

The second method is much quicker and cleaner as the 1st method required some half second delays programmed in to make it work. If you already have a "Movie" & "Music" macro, just add the above steps to the macro so it happens accordingly.