These are on my short list to replace my great Pio 45TX. Both of these are similar but it seems that the Denon has slightly more features and possibly 1 more Dolby support feature. However the SC-25 does have dual HDMI out (which could be solved w/ a cheap Monoprice splitter). One advantage to the Pio is that I am searching for just the right Kuro and they would pair well w/ the HDMI control.

I got my F.I.L. a Denon 2808 a while back and thought it was very good, so my Denon experience is positive too.

Does anyone have experience w/ these specific receivers? I know Denon won't be a problem and I personally like Pio Elite.

Denon has Audyssey, something others can't match.

Onkyo also has Audyssey.

Cesar, I'd also suggest that you give preference to a Denon or Onkyo with Audyssey MultEQ XT.

What I find interesting is that some people swear by Audyssey, and other say to turn it off for best sound... Never owning a product with it, I can't say one way or another.

I am a big Pioneer fan. Have always been because I steered away from their cheap stuff and you usually get a lot of bang for your buck, but my next go around will have me doing what you are doing and looking at other brands as well.

I did a quick search and found that the Pioneer doesn't touch any digital video signal coming in, which may be a good thing in some cases, but if you are looking for some sort of video processing (upconverting or whatever) it only does that on analog inputs. Otherwise, I am finding that if that isn't an issue, you get a little better "value" with the Pioneer for what people are calling "mainstream" features (does it play audio well? does it have good power handling? does it have lots of inputs and outputs? etc).

For straight up audio work, any of those should work. It comes down to the bells and whistles. Some have Audyssey, Pioneer has MCACC which is pretty darn good too so that becomes a debate over which is better, blah blah blah... Tough call. You should be happy no matter which way you go.

I know, tough call. I've always relied on MCACC vs an SPL and it's been great. I can see that Audyssey would be fine too. I've read the same regarding the video. If I used an outboard scaler maybe I'd care but I don't. I've read people liking the ICE amps on the Pio over the Denon, I suppose it's more relative to sound quality. But I don't really crank my system up since it's next to our bedroom. I get the looks from the wife when I've got the surrounds sound in full regalia. I may move to M60's but I'm sure they both provide sufficient power.

Decisions...decisions. Hopefully the holiday sales can make this decision easier.

Except that it's completely subjective whether Audyssey actually improves anything.

Personally....

I tasted Audyssey MultEQ when I owned an Onkyo 876. Completely unimpressed with the changes that it felt were necessary. Made the sound hollow and weak, and completely screwed up the 3-dimensionality of the M80's in stereo mode. Off, thank-you-very-much. Perhaps Denon does it better.

My old Pioneer has their {very} early MCACC system, and I've never been impressed with it either. I leave it off. When I recently owned a much-newer Elite SC-05, its new-and-improved MCACC did a fair job. But only just. The changes it made weren't as offensive as what Audyssey wanted to do, but I still didn't really think it improved the overall soundstage much. Just kinda made it sound, different. Turned that off too.

Perhaps I am just a Luddite when it comes to sound processing, but I've yet to hear any system that's better than one's ears, a little attention paid to speaker positioning, and a classic Radio Shack SPL meter. Yeah, get off my lawn, too.

So I guess my $.02 would be to buy an AVR that has the features and specs that look best to you overall, and not base the decision purely on Audyssey vs. MCACC vs. {whatever}. Personally, my next AVR is likely going to be a Denon, simply because I'm ready for a change away from Pioneer (had my 43TX for 7 years now, and was sort of mixed about the SC-05), and Denon AVR's seem to have an astoundingly happy group of followers, both here and in other forums. It just seems that I read of far fewer complaints of Denon gear than I do of any other manufacturer. They seem to build very robust and high quality AVR's that play well with other gear. Both in terms of 4-ohm M80's, and in connectivity to other equipment. Unlike Pioneer, where certain HDMI features only work if you have a Pio HDTV; which I think is BS.

I will say this though, at the risk of provoking the ire of the "amps don't matter club", I felt that the SC-05 did really make my Axioms sing. I can't prove that it had anything to do with the ICE amplification, but the sound coming from my Axioms was *damn* good. Extremely clean & clear dynamics, with amazing dimensionality, up to ear-splitting levels. Really, really, really good sound. Even on my M80's, which, with their 4-ohm impedance, aren't technically supported by Pio Elite AVR's. Had I kept the SC-05, I would have dumped my LPA-1, no questions asked.

Good luck! Fun times, buying a new AVR.

OK, I'm back to this again. I may be relegating my 45TX to our new office/kitchen receiver so I can use the USB input w/ our Mac.

The 3310 and SC-25 are still my top 2. Does anyone have any personal experience with either one? I know people rave about the ICE but power has never been an issue for me, I'm just driving M22's and a sub in a medium sized room. I may decide on M60's or M80's if I decide to go towers but not right now. I'd assume either one can drive these.

You would assume correctly. I have no experience with the Sc series and Denon just works through out their line up

The Denons are excellent units and one of the side benefits is you can learn a foreign language from their owner's manual.

Japanish.

I was thinking "confusish"

Get the one that you feel offers the best feature set. Personally, I would not get a receiver based on if it had Audyssey or not. However, why I like Denon and would prefer it to Pioneer in this instance is due to the fact that I know Denon units are reliable, have excellent feature sets and from what Axiom has responded to about Denon AVR's is that they in fact use beefy power supplies in their units which are suitable for more demanding loads at higher volumes like the M80's and such.

Neither has features (for me) that make the decision a slam dunk. Prices seem to be similar on both. I may end up w/ a Denon just to change it up.

Now I've got to keep an eye out for online deals from authorized dealers. Preferably out of state w/ free shipping, I want to avoid the 10% sales tax we pay in my area of CA.

You probably won't see the best price from 6th ave online. You've got to call and talk to a live person, and be sure to tell them you are an AVS Forum member. They are an authorized Denon reseller and you will get the manufacter's warranty. They were great for me when I got my 3808ci - don't know where they are for prices on the 3310. Shipping was free and they don't charge CA sales tax.

-Dave

Ah, good advice Dave.

Oldskool,
I have about a year's experience with the SC-05 and some recent experience with the SC-25. Here's some real world experience I can share (please feel free to PM me if you want more details or have questions):
1 - the ICE amps are great - I am not saying they sound better than the Denon, but you seem to get more headroom for the same money based on my research. But as I'm sure many will point out if you stay within the headroom most good amps will sound equivalent
2 - I love my SC-05 but have been annoyed with the SC-25. It seems that some SC-25 units have a glitch where they won't wake from a long standby time with a remote command. Physically pressing the power button makes wakes it up, but off overnight it's likely to happen again. Very annoying. And Pioneer has been completely unresponsive to my service calls (though my local dealer is helping me out).
3 - Global crossover only. You can't cross the fronts at a different point than the surrounds or center. Also annoying but not huge deal for my setup.
4 - As has already been pointed out, no video upscaling through HDMI inputs. Again this is fine for me as all my sources are HD, but may not be for you.
5 - No on screen GUI except for initial setup. Volume, sound settings etc... are only displayed on the front of the unit, not on screen.

So for me personally I am happy with my SC-05, though I definitely would not get the SC-25 based on my experience so far with it. When it comes time for me to buy again I will go with a good flexible processor and an A1400-8 or similar.

I basically would agree with Peter where the ICE amps are great, but the rest is a mixed bag.

Cheers,

Seems like Pioneer feel asleep while designing that receiver. To not have independent crossovers or even basic upscaling ala Faroudia like my 3808 on a avr this late in the game is a shame.

Yup, I think they did fall asleep and I am NOT happy with the Pioneer customer service. I have lodged 2 calls with them where they take my info and say a tech will call me back - but I have not received one call back. My SC-05 is fine for my particular needs and application right now, but definitely lacks flexibility for future or other applications. It's just that the specs on the ICE amps are so darn good... Also standing wave correction in the MCACC is also quite good in my experiemce. But otherwise many drawbacks.

Thanks Dan.

Hmm. Does anyone know if the 3310 will display the GUI on screen? I thought the Denons could but, now thinking about it, using the 2808 at my inlaws and I don't see it via HDMI. The reason is because I was planning on putting the AVR in the garage (next to my media room) and then rely on the OSD to see the volume and sound settings.

Hmm. Seems I can't get the 2808 to show the volume OSD via HDMI, even though I have it turned on. The normal OSD menus show up on HDMI.

Does anyone with a 3310 know if volume will overlay over HDMI?

UPDATE: Never mind. 2808 doesn't but the 3310 will. http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html#general

The 3310 is nearly the same as the 3808, although the true replacement for the 3808 is the 4310 according to Denon.

3310 it is. Gizmodo posted a deal today for $850 shipped from an authorized dealer. No tax outside NJ. Not bad.

Now I need to find a Kuro at that kind of discount...

Heck that's better than deals on most 3808's! Bravo

The 3310 is a lesser receiver than the 3808 as far internal components go. The only thing the 3310 does better is video upconversion, so it is not unusual to see the 3310 for less than the 3808 was ever/is offered for.

Isn't the 3310 essentially the new version of the 2809 from last year?

Correct

But the 3808 replacement 4310 went up so much in price I can't even consider buying it new and as far as I have seen even a refurb is out of the question. I will wait till HDMI 1.4 or 1.5 becomes the norm before I spend any more money on a receiver anyway. I want an amp.

Would it have been so hard for Denon to name the upgraded 2809... the 2810 for Christ sakes? I do love Denon and all, by why do they have to do everything the hard way???

Not without firing the entire marketing department.

I don't think they should fire the marketing department until they first fire the manual-writing department!

They have a manual writing department? I thought marketing just formatted the engineering notes...

Edit: My apologies to all engineers on the forum for that low blow

I wonder if the renaming came from the fact Denon used the 1710 and 1910 on their DVD players and were trying to avoid some confusion but in the end they caused even more.

Call me suspicious, but these sorts of re-alignments are usually to hide a price increase or feature reductions.