I am looking at both sub options, unless you guys can suggest something better in a similar price category.

Probably 75% of my listening will be music (all types) with 25% movies. The sub will be working with M22s FL&R and VP100 center.

As usual, any advice and input is appreciated.

Thanks a lot!

snm, where are you located? it makes a difference as to some of your options reg subs.

Once again, I am going to bang the SVS PB12-NSD drum :).

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm

If you are in Canada, http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/pb12nsd-powered-box-sub-12-nsd-woofer-black-p-6.html

EDIT: Although, with mostly music, you may be better off with the 10" version. http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

I'm in California.

I'm pretty sure the SVS is over his budget if he's looking at the EP175, Tater. There's shipping on that too.

It's only $40 more, before shipping which I guess he has to pay on either one. I just edited my post to include the 10", which is probably better for music, anyway, and that one's $85 less.

Since you're in the States you've got several choices, including Tater's recommendation of SVS. You might also want to check out an LFM-1 or LFM-1 Plus from Outlaw Audio , or check out the many offerings from Edesign Audio according to your budget.

I'm a little flexible on price, so $100 either way is fine. I'd rather invest an additional few dollars if makes the difference. That's why I was considering the Velodyne. But I have to say, based on so many posts on this and other forums, the SVS subs do look appealing. Am I really getting so much more bang for the buck with SVS vs. Velodyne?

I'm pretty certain the consensus is that the SVS is a much better sub overall than the Velodyne, although you need to be comparing specific models obviously.

Velodyne makes some very good stuff, but you have to spend a lot of money to get it. Their entry level stuff is generally beaten by the "online" brands simply because doing business that way is obviously cheaper. Companies like Axiom, SVS, HSU all make excellent product. It may have been on this board someone used the analogy: You can pick between an Audi, a BMW and a Lexus, and you're not really going to make a bad choice. Same deal here.

I use the SVS and have been happy with it. I do not doubt for a second the Axiom is a good sub, it just seems your money goes a touch further elsewhere when you're talking subs.

I can tell you from experience, I listened to a lot of subs in the box stores in my quest for my HT package and in my price range of under $750 the only one i was truly impressed with was a supercube III. I was not impressed with the sound relative to the price but merely relative to the size, it is an impressive little guy but after hearing so much about HSU and SVS (and axiom) on forums i figured i try flying blind as i didn't feel that it would be any worse than a cheap valodyne or equivalent.

Bottom line is i was blown away by how deep the PB-12NSD goes for under 700 dollars shipped to my door. The only downside is its a beast size wise and has a very low WAF. I have it in a fairly decent size room open to the kitchen and have never had it past 35-40% on the gain and if i want to rock to a movie keep the DB at 0 on the Denon. I will say when i first hooked it up and listened to music i wasn't overly impressed as it sounded like i thought it would and no more. However after putting in a dvd (U-571) the permagrin began. I cant speak for HSU as i have never heard them but have heard as many good things as SVS on forums and such. Another factor was SVS's customer service was as good as Axioms IMO from day one. I give two thumbs up to SVS and look forward to fitting one of their pricier models in the budget.

The question is, if you had three arms would you give it three thumbs up? Or would it still only get two?

What is your obsession with arms these days?

Hello, my name is Micah and I.... am an arm-a-holic.

I wish I was your arms dealer.

Sounds like there would be no "arm" in trying out the SVS then. If we don't like it, we can send it back. No arm no foul. And it doesn't cost an arm and a leg...which would otherwise mean one arm and one thumb up.

Sounds like the PB10-NSR will fit the bill given our room isn't huge and we don't need to rumble the neighborhood (we'll leave that to mother nature in southern California!).

We need to sign an armistice to help bring an end to the arm puns.

I'm told there is no substitute for the real thing.

That's what she said

SNM you can always get the PB12 and just turn the volume down :-)

For me it was an easy decision for the price difference between the two i didn't want to doubt my decision should i move or develop a bigger HT room than my current setup. And after all when the wifes gone sometimes I just enjoy watching the walls breathe in and out. Go big or go home as they say.


Thats what she said, too bad she went home

Is there much of a difference in the amp, processing and other technicalities between the 10 and the 12? I looked at the website and read the details of both, and although there are differences, I don't really know what they mean.

no not really, just deeper bass capabilities with the 12 inch. and the 10 is on back order :-)

So here's another question that has come up during discussions...We would like something that excels musically, and I am getting the distinct impression that the SVS's may be "too big".

Any recommendations?

You might want to consider a sealed sub, many people feel they are more accurate for music.

Ian has had some strong words about that in the past. His stance is that overall sub design matters a lot more than whether it's sealed or ported.

That is pretty much what I have heard from other designers.

If you are at all handy I would suggest this kit from Creative Sound
Passive radiators offer the advantage of low extension of a ported sub with the size of a sealed design. It is also a relatively easy build and will outperform anything in that price range in a commercial sub.

I can say that i truly love my SVS sub BUT if you are looking to have dance parties at the house then maybe a different one is for you as I dont feel that my PD12-NSD is as good as it gets for music but yet is better than anything i have had. I think that maybe the SVS is more tuned for lower frequencies than heard is most music. This is all amateur opinion of course. For movies i cant imagine anything else in its price range really out performing it.

I think those of us who grew up in car audio have that belief firmly embedded in our brains. That's because in large part if you grew up in car audio and wanted MAX SPL, you went with a ported subwoofer. Those who wanted to be able to distinguish one bass note from the next knew to get a sealed sub. It seems that back then anyways it must have been easier to get maximum volume from the ported design and vice versa for the sealed design. I don't know, I don't design subwoofers for a living, all I know is that is what EVERYONE would tell you when you were putting a system together. Walk into any car audio shop and the first thing out of their mouth was...

"What's your pleasure, SPL, or SQ"?

If you answered SPL they dropped a ported sub into your trunk and you were done. If you considered yourself an audiophile, then they hooked you up with a sealed sub.

Old habits die hard.

very good point as that is still my belief right or wrong. i think of sealed as tighter and cleaner and ported as louder but boomier with less precision.

Hey Micah. Have you listened to the M80s in pure 2 channel? Hows the base on them, nice and tight? Take a peak around the back near the bottom and what do you see?

Well I'm not saying that the philosophy is correct, only that car audio subwoofers (from the 80's and 90's anyway) were designed this way, and so car audio nuts like myself got used to this being the rule of thumb.

But it seems to me that there must have been some reasoning behind all of this. For instance it still makes sense to me that if you're after MAX SPL, a ported design has advantages in this area. Because you get both the air moved from the front of the speaker, and the air being moved from the rear of the speaker out the port. If there were absolutely no differences in the two designs, then why is the EP600 ported and the EP800 not ported?

I didn't say there were no differences, just that the characteristics depended on a lot more than whether the sub is ported or sealed.

You'll say what I bloody well tell you to say and you'll like it God damn it!!!!

Thbbt.

Wow, when did you become Ken's wife?

If we compare 2 sub that have similar spec and SQ does a sealed one provide less shaking in the surrounding environment than a ported one?

The short answer is no.

As you can see from the response curves I posted earlier, a ported sub rolls off differently than a ported sub. If the driver is of high enough quality and you can use equalization or digital sound processing to shape the response of the sealed sub to be the same as a ported sub AND the driver is of a high enough quality that the equalization does not introduce huge amounts of distortion, they will sound the same.

This thread is a good candidate for the subwoofer myths link.

http://www.audiopulse.com/know-how/subwoofer-driver-guide/myths-about-subwoofers/

Micah. Though the back of the driver is being used, the volume of the enclosure and the port act both as an amplifyer/resonator and as a filter. The frequencies (and loudness of the frequencies) coming out of the port are different than what you get from the front of the driver.
::runs to make a picture::



Think of the output of the front of the driver as the response of that driver in a sealed enclosure. What you get is a summing of the two to produce the response curve of your ported sub. That is why, for the same driver and without EQ, a ported design will play lower than a sealed one.

The reason a proted sub will play louder is efficiency. You are not wasting any energy compressing air in the sealed interior of the sub. I suspect that a ported design is also more effectively coupled to the air mass in your room (acoustic coupling).

As to why spl subs sound crappy, its how they are designed. The designer does not care about the accuracy of the sound reproduced. He only cares about how much sound the sub can generate in the enclosed space of a car. There is no need to worry about damping or linear excursion or even motor noise. Sounds sorta like music? Gets REALLY loud? We're all good!

Why is the EP800 sealed? Check out the size of obsi's ED A7-450s. Most people don't want huge boxes in their living rooms.

Oh, and if you want to get super efficient take a look at horn subs. Be warned though, to get a response close to the EP800 you need a sub the size of a large refrigerator!

Wow. As you all know far more than I ever will on subs, can you suggest a couple of musical sealed subs, say no more than $700 or so. Something good musically that will compliment my M22s. They'll be through a Rega Planet CD player and a Pioneer VSX1019AH receiver.

I like the look of the SVS SB12 Plus based on what everyone is saying, but their sealed units are out of stock and awaiting a new version (the SB12-NSD - anyone know when they are coming out - if that is an option?).

Thanks again. This forum is awesome!

I don't have the newer EP350, but many call it very musical. Factory Outlet price is $682.

The EP350 is very musical. I love mine.

Now we just need to add passive radiators to the discussion

I love a good pair of 'passive radiators' myself.

There is nothing musical about Axiom subwoofers or any subwoofer for that matter.

A refresher course on subwoofer myths.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tightbass.html

http://www.audiopulse.com/know-how/subwoofer-driver-guide/myths-about-subwoofers/

Next you'll be saying my cables aren't danceable.

As much as I am a sub design geek, I havn't listened to a lot of sealed subs.

I agree that the EP350 is an excellent sub for music as will pretty much any sub designed by Axiom. They do not seem interested in compromising music quality to gain boom factor. Unfortunately, the EP350 is not sealed.

I like the look of the ED A7S 450, but at $850 before shipping its already over your budget.

I agree in principle, but some manufacturers have been known to bump certain frequencies to give their subs more thump for movies. Jay found a little of this in some of the subs he looked at, including one from SVS (can't remember which one).

Family forum, no cable dancing allowed here. Move on.

I'm a little bit confused with all those sealed vs vented differences and technical terms I'm not used to. Concretely, what could be the noticeable difference between the Axiom EP175 and eD A3s-250 ? It may sound stupid and I know it is probably hard to compare these 2 sub but I'm planning on buying one of these 2 and I'm actually wandering if the EP175 is worth the 120$ more on final price including tax, shipping, customs...

Another thing I read in the link posted earlier is that vented sub a more efficient than sealed. Is that why eD goes with a 300W amplifier and Axiom is using a 175W amplifier? What I've been thinking behind that is if both speaker would sound similar, maybe I would get my money back paying more for the Axiom by saving on my electricity bill.

One last question... would both complete the M22 On-wall well knowing that I don't want a subwoofer that will shake everything in my apartment but one that will let me enjoy my music and movies the most?

Thank you for all your information, I really like to read the post and I feel that I have a lot to learn from you.

Doesn't enjoying music and movies mean shaking the walls?

I am not the foremost knowledge behind subs but yes i would believe a ported sub would be more efficient than a sealed as it would take less energy to move the speaker as their is less resistance. With that being said unless you are comparing the exact same amp watts are not all the same, there isn't much regarding the accuracy of what manufacturers claim their wattage to be. Please correct me if I am way off base

I wish I could answer the EP175 question for you, but I ordered one with a custom finish a week ago and it can take up to 5 weeks for delivery. I have the On-wall M22's and an on-wall/in-wall VP100. My room size is 1800 sq ft. I've heard that if your room is 2000 sq ft or less, then the EP175 should do nicely.

I just want something to complement the on-wall M22 and be small, because it will be positioned under the VP100. I'm not looking for maximum effect for movies at this time.

That is what I'm looking for too. I actually have a cheap 8" subwoofer with a 150W amplifier that came with a HT in a box and it is actually doing the job for the loudness but it doesn't sound really great. That is why I would like to upgrade to a better quality sub. I know that it is fun to make the wall shake but I live in an apartment, I had experience with loud neighbors before (the reason why I'm moving) and I would not want to be the loud one in my new apartment.

It is really hard to say which would be the better sub without listening to both of them.

For what you want, and considering where you are coming from, I would go with the ED.

Spend the $160 saved on more music to listen to.

The sub I had was the the PB 12nsd. It has a slight bump in FR around 50-60 and I felt it hit a little too hard for my tastes. The PB13 is noce and smooth but lacks the resonance Axiom subs have which I think makes them more musical. I only know this from A/B testing with mojo's EP600. If I hadn't heard them in the same room I am reasonably sure I wouldn't know they sound different.

It could also be that the PB12 produces a lot of harmonic distortion. That can also give a sub more punch. The PB13 has been verified to play very cleanly though.

According to the graphs on HTS the PB12-nsd is clean, just has that slight db increase at that most felt frequency and the PB13 U is a very smooth sub, the graphs look similar to a DSP sub, quite flat.