Hello:

Just joined the forum at the suggestion of one of the Axiom employees, and thought I'd ask a few questions.

I'm looking at piecing together a home theatre system and I'm curious what you fine people might advise.

I currently have (and ideally would like to keep, but if you suggest I should replace a component, please let me know why/what to look for):

- Sony XBR1 40' LCD TV
- Klipsch x550d sub woofer
- Klipsch synergy S-2 surround sound speakers
- Xbox 360
- Boxee PC

I'm looking to get a nice set of good sounding, good looking (and low profile!) front speakers - including center channel. I've sound-tested the Paradigm Millenia 20's, which sound quite nice, but are a bit pricey.

In the Axiom line, I've seen the VP150 v3 (specifically the in-wall/on-wall hybrid), and they look rather nice (admittedly, I'm still swayed by the look of the Paradigm - but it's all about sound at the end anyhow!).

Anyhow, I'm curious about a few things:

- Knowing full well this is an axiom board and likely to be some bias; does anyone have any pros/cons versus Paradigms, specifically the M20 or their line in general? Bias welcome, but I'd appreciate full disclosure if it's based on tests or not.

- Can I use the VP150's as fronts *and* a center? Or will I be losing out on some range? Are there any other speakers I should use instead; hopefully still maintaining a slim profile with the wall?

- Can anyone recommend a good receiver to go with this setup? I've had my eye on the Denon 890; but I'm unsure as to whether it will do enough of what I want.

Oh, and as a final point, I'm not really interested in 7.1 - 5.1 should be more than enough (it's a small-to-medium sized room). A 7.1 capable receiver wouldn't hurt tho; I imagine I can use the power to be used somewhere else.

If anyone is in Vancouver and wouldn't mind a sound audition, I'd appreciate it; or if someone has a setup that's low profile using Axiom, I'd love some photos so I can sell my wife on the idea.

Cheers, and thanks for reading this dreadfully long post.

Welcome to the forum.

Paradigm and Axiom share a similar design philosophy and as such have a similar sound. If you like the Paradigms you most likely will like Axiom.

I would recommend the M22 and VP100 or 150 in/on walls to keep to the low profile you wish.

That Denon is a good receiver and many of us here use Denon for or avr's, yu can also look at Onkyo or Yamaha, Harmon Kardon as well. All of these companies have 7.1 capable receivers but it is up to you to buy the extra speakers if you so desire.

There are a few Axiom owners in the vancouver area, I would bet they will be around shortly, but just in case they don't drop in, head over to the Auditions thread in the hearing things forum and see who is listed in Vancouver then send them a PM(private message)

Welcome to the Axiom forums!

Just a few questions to start off.

1) What is the approximate dimensions of your room?
2) An approximate listening distance? (how far away you will be sitting)
3) How much are you willing to spend. Your budget?

Eddie, welcome. In looking over your post, a few thoughts come to mind: first, don't place so much emphasis on the "low profile" factor; a vertically configured speaker will generally give you better sound, and if possible should be used even for a center speaker. A relatively small Axiom speaker with excellent sound(at least "comparably good" with the Paradigm M20) is the M22.

As to the receiver, the Denon 890 would drive any of the Axiom speakers to beyond safe listening levels at typical home listening distances on the order of 10'.

On the 5.1/7.1 question, the distance behind your listening position(say at least 4' for rear speakers to form a sound field)is more significant than the room size. Note that a 7.1 channel receiver doesn't have more power supply capacity than a 5.1 channel receiver with a similar power supply; it simply can distribute that power through more channels. Most receivers these days are 7.1 or more.

Welcome Eddie.

Jay, Dr House and John have already got you going in the right direction and I'm pretty sure they know a heck of a lot more than me! However reading your post it seems you are in a very similar position to the one I was in almost 1 1/2 years ago, so I'll try to add some information for you specifically about the in/on walls.



I also needed an on-wall solution and considered the Paradigm Cinema and Millenia series. I did not listen to the Millenia series too much due to price, but I am very familiar with the Signature W Series as I used them in an HT I built for my in-laws.

IMHO, the looks of the Paradigm Signatures are fantastic, but I find the sound comparable to the Axiom in/on walls - in fact I find more detail/subtlety in the Axioms. Either way you'll be relying on the subwoofer as the on-walls just won't play low enough. Yes, I may be biased towards the Axioms, but I really believe you need to get to the Signature W series to get comparable sound to the Axioms in/on wall series, but then the price differential becomes huge.

And to try and help with some of your other questions:

- it's not recommended to use 3 150's as LCR combo, the 150 is designed for center channel duty only (I also asked Axiom this), you are better off having three identical W-22's if your configuration allows it, otherwise stick with W22 and W150 combo.

Pics? Try this link to my installation, just skip through the construction pics to the semi-final install - boy do I need to update this as it looks much better now!
The top view sketch at the end shows why I needed a slim on-wall solution due to the proximity of the entrance to the left channel speaker position.

And also note that I really believe the QS8's are about the best surround speakers out there. The ADP's from Paradigm don't even come close. If you consider trying an Axiom setup, it's really worth at least checking out the QS8's if your budget can stretch to accomodate.

Anyway, hope that helps and apologies for my equally long response.

Cheers,

Hey!

Thanks for all the great replies everyone. I'll try to answer some general questions here, as they were posed to me.

@JakeWash: Thanks for your reply. It seems like a lot of people echo your sentiments, so I think I'll be heading down the path of the 150's and 22.s Good to know my Denon choice is a sound one... I might bump up to the 990, seeing as how I found one for 899$.

@DrHouse: I'll see if I can answer your questions. I've also taken the time to sketch a crummy lay out of the room, which leads me to a new question I'll ask after. But first, answers:

1) First off, the room is a joint living room, dining room, and opens into a kitchen with a bar. So the dimension I have allocated for the 'living room' is approximately 13 ft x 13 ft.

2) The 'ideal' listening distance (comfiest couch facing the TV) will be 10 feet exactly.

3) I don't have a true 'budget' - it's mostly what doesn't make the wife cringe too much. That number apparently is around 1200$ for the remaining three speakers. I'm trying to convince her that 900$ for the receiver is a good deal. So thereabouts.

I'll see if I can post the layout of my room and the questions pertaining to it after I answer the remaining replies.

@JohnK: I'm not sure what you mean by a 'vertically configured speaker'. Do you mean a floor-standing speaker? Or merely an on-wall mounted bookshelf?

I could possibly get away with the on-wall bookshelf speaker (although it would seriously detract from the aesthetics), but sadly the wife has vetoed floorstanding, if that's what you mean. We're going to have a kid running around here soon (child, not goat) and she wants minimum clutter on the floor.

If you mean on-wall, are they really that much superior to in-wall/on-wall hybrids? My understanding is that the sound is much the same.

@cb919: Thank you for your honest and frank opinion. I also am grateful for your mentioning of the use of the 22's versus the 150's - not only cheaper, but if it complements the sound better, that's a great sell as well.

Your photos are fantastic - that's exactly what I needed to see. The only thing I was wondering - if it's not too much to ask - would it be possible to take a profile show of your system? I'd love to see how flush your speakers/TV are to your wall since the profile of these speakers will be highly visible in my configuration.


Alright, here's the layout of my room... Letsee if I can get this image upload sorted:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

So that's the layout of the room. I've left the left side 'open' as that's the dining room which is immediately adjacent to an open kitchen. The entire length of the room in that direction is likely about 30ft or so, with a stand-up bar between the kitchen and the dining room, if that matters.

Unfortunately the area doesn't lend itself to being laid out symmetrically - Vancouverites are tight on space, donchaknow - hence the odd layout. The two floating hollow rectangles are couches, and the area behind the bottom couch is our entry way, hence the odd shape.

The three black squares are the current speakers I own and am thinking about using. I'm currently dubious as to whether the surround speakers are laid out in an appropriate manner, or if I should have them somehow attempt to face the couches more directly. Any guidance there would be appreciated.

Also, is having my subwoofer next to the couch a big deal? On one hand I hear that subs are omnidirectional so it should be fine, on the other I've heard that the ideal location of the subwoofer is near the front speakers. Advice would be welcome.

Anyhow, let me know if there are any further questions or suggestions - thanks for taking the time!

-e-

Here's a link to a page that has some pictures of the on-walls. Scroll down to see them. The shots are somewhat of an angle.

Hi Eddie,

I'm out in Maple Ridge (it's really not that far, I commute most every day) and while I wish I had Axioms all around, I'm not there yet.

What I do have is a mix of two M22s and Paradigm centre, two surrounds, and one sub. I bought the M22s a couple of years ago and the Paradigm stuff is mid '90s era. All connected to an Onkyo 706.

I've read that the W22s and M22s sound very similar.

PM me if you're interested in coming out for a look and listen.

My advice is to take advantage of their in home listening policy and order both the on wall and M22 bookshelf speakers along with both the vp100 and vp150 to see which setup works best for you and send the others back. It will cost Axiom money to ship back the unwanted speakers but I feel once you get them in your home you will be one happy camper. Personally i have heard on wall speakers and am not a fan, with the m22's being ported i see too much functionality of being a bookshelf. The above posters are WAY more educated on this topic but i wanted to offer my .02

BTW Congrats on the 8,000th post. Maybe you can get a whole new set up for free ;-)

Close but not quite. When sending back what you order, the freight charge is on your dime. You'll be refunded for what you paid for the speakers when sent back within 30 days, iirc.

Still, it is a good way to decide which way you want to go though. Offer's still open, of course, to have a listen anyway.

Eddie, "vertically configured" simply meant with the drivers arranged vertically rather than horizontally and applies to all sizes of speakers. I was thinking of M22s, either the bookshelves mounted on the wall or the on-wall/in-wall version.

Looking at your proposed setup, with the TV high above the fireplace, and the speakers presumably at the same level, a different thought immediately comes to mind: use the right wall rather than the fireplace wall. Unless there's some problem with that wall that isn't shown on the diagram, the TV and speakers could all be mounted at a more convenient height for both video and audio. The main couch would of course be about where the smaller one is now.

Man; I love this board for it's quick responses.

@CatBrat: Great link - definitely helped in persuading the wife. She does love her low-profile.

@Kruncher: Awesome! Thanks so much for the invite. I'll chat with the wife and see if she's up for it. Even if we don't make it out there, I really appreciate the offer. I imagine you'd recommend your M22's?

@Nashvegas: I might do as you suggest; in ordering a few extra speakers and sending a few back. As a commenter later on posted, it looks like it would cost *me*, not Axiom to return them, but in the quest for good sound, that might be a worthwhile cost.

As to your comments about the on-wall speakers not being to your liking - I have heard that sentiment echoed loudly by a few people. Unfortunately floor-speakers just aren't an option in this space - it's rather cramped as it is with my existing floor speakers, and the wife has given me an ultimatum. The best thing I can do is find a good set of on wall/in-wall speakers and combine it with a good subwoofer (which the XW-500d appears to be) to round out the low-end. Wish me luck.

@JohnK: Thanks for the info on the definition of vert-versus-horizontal. I'm assuming the M22's and the V150 meet the criteria of vertically configured?

As for your point about moving the setup - you've caught a flaw in my diagram. The wall that you mention isn't illustrated properly. First off, it's a bay window (so it's angled like a tri-fold), and it's also (obviously) got a window in it. In a way that would be ideal - I could have floor standing speakers sitting on the ledge, a center channel mounted on the roof, and a TV propped up appropriately, it would either be backlit by the sun, or we'd need to have the blinds closed while watching TV. All of which the wife is not a fan of.

Although I suppose I could also spring for automated blinds to close on demand... But I don't think the wife would appreciate that.

Life would be so much easier if I weren't married.

Thanks for your replies all. Feel free to continue with suggestions if you have any. I'd be curious to hear if anyone has any suggestions on my subwoofer placement still.

Cheers,

-e-

Concerning the on-walls, I'm not a fan of them after I tried them, but there are many more that like them.

I don't have room for floor standers in that spot, so as a compromise, what I intend to do is mount bookshelf M22's on the wall to the mid to lower left and right of TV, then mount M2's to the upper left and right of the TV, then mount VP150 under the TV. All bookshelf speakers, and all in Cinnamon Beech to match the sub-woofer. I'll reuse the black on-walls as surrounds, mounted on the rear wall. Seating is mid-room. The current set of M22's and the on/in-wall VP100 won't have any use for them. Probably sell them.

The reason I think I'll like the M2's mounted above the M22's is I think that it should increase the wall-of-sound value. At least it does with the on-wall M22's when I'm using both the bookshelf M22 and on-wall M22 at the same time, vertically aligned.

Hi Eddie,
OK, I have posted new pics in my online HT album. Profile pic is included with some measures in the captions - let me know if you have any questions.

For the record, I also would have preferred a meaty floor standing speaker, but room ergonomics just did not allow for it. Any on-wall is a compromise, but IMHO I think the Axiom in/on design minimises those compromises. It could be because I am just so used to my system now, but I can easily forget that I am listening to in/on-walls! Maybe ignorance is bliss?

For the record I have never heard the full on-wall Axioms, only the in/on walls so I have nothing to offer in comparison there.

As for sub placement, do the subwoofer crawl to find optimal placement. Generally a crossover of 80Hz or lower with your mains will make your sub mostly non-localized. When your crossover gets higher the sub will have to play higher than 80 Hz which will start to make it easier to localize. Another good reason to look for an on-wall solution that will play down to 80Hz linearly.

Cheers,

@cb919:

Thanks so much for taking that photo. Really looks like you did a quality job on that install too!

It's comforting to hear you like the sound. Truthfully, I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with the on-wall/in-walls as well - my current speaker system is a mismatch of hand-me-downs, and my front-left speaker has had a blown cone since I got it. Perhaps it's best I don't get too attached to any floor speakers until I get the space for them.

Next house, maybe?

I was wondering, however, if you or someone else could decipher your last paragraph for me. I'm not familiar with the subwoofer crawl - but I'm guessing it means start with your sub in one place, play something, and slowly move it trying to find the optimal placement? If so, what do you look for? Just personal preference?

Also, you mention a lot about crossover of 80HZ and non-localization. I'm not familiar with those terms or what they mean - can you point me at some resources I can read up on these things to understand further?

Thanks again.

-e-

Sub crawl--put the sub in your listening position and crawl around on the floor until you find the best bass. Then put the sub there.

Crossover--the cutoff frequency (fine--SLOPE!) above which the sub doesn't play and below which the speakers don't play.

Non-localizaton--you don't want to hear where the sub is, you just want to hear bass all over the room, or at least like it's coming from the speakers. Bass is non-localizable below a certain frequency. That frequency is debatable, but 80Hz is a good place to start.

No problem Eddie - it was less than 2 years ago i was learning all of this, and it never stops with all of the knowledge kindly shared on this forum. I read far more than I post because i have much more to learn than I have to share! Plus many of the posts are class A comic material (the last round of posts in the v3 thread had me laughing out loud).

Anyway, subwoofer crawl explained here.

Localizable simply refers to being able to pinpoint where sound is coming from. At around 80 Hz and lower it becomes much more difficult to tell what direction a sound is emanating from.

And a starting point on crossovers here.

Doh - Ken just beat me to it!

Cheers,

Yeah, but yours had links.

That's cuz as a 4 finger typist copy and pasting links is easier than spelling it out.

ANother thought is that you can wall mount the regular bookshelf M22 and get all that the M22 has to offer as some accounts say the on/inwall versions are not quite as good but similarily good.

There is no problem with a sub next to the couch but as has been mentioned it might not be the best place or in my case it is the only place it could go.

Fully agreed with Jay - if you have an option to do the M22's wall mounted on a wall bracket (like the FMB), I think that would be better sound wise than the W22's. The added benefit with the wall bracket is you can aim the speakers. The W's are stuck being flat mounted to the wall unless you do some fancy construction.

That being said, I have so far never wished I could tweak the aim of my W22's. Of course this could be another case of ignorant bliss for me.

My sub is also located behind my couch FWIW.

Axiom spent quite a lot of time and research to ensure that the inwall/onwall versions sound as good as they can, and as similar to the box versions as possible.

I've never been sorry doing what my wife wants. I've OFTEN been sorry trying to do something else.

If you like the look and the form factor of the W22, they would be an excellent choice.

Definitely words of wisdom there (at least for us married guys).
And yes, Axiom did a heck of a job with the in/on wall design. I just listened to the live version of "Say Goodbye" from DMB Best of What's around CD. Completely awesome, that whole 3 minute intro with just drum and then flute is great. Felt like I was there. I can't imagine what it would be like with say M60's or 80's.