Hello folks,

I am looking for a new sub. I have been out shopping and found out that what I would really like probably doesn't exist. Let me explain.

I initially went out to look at a Paradigm DSP-3200. I found the way it plays to be comparible to my old sub. However, after listen to it the salesman brought in a REL T1. I loved the way it disappeared, making my main speakers just seem bigger and not making itself known. Problem was that when listening to movies (which is 95% of what I would use it for) it could not give me that punch when called apon for explosions...etc. During non-action passages it was very nice however it lacked that key ingredient.

I then listened to a Sunfire True subwoofer junior,and a $4k velodyne. Here I found the exact opposite. Like the Paradigm and my old sub these made its pressence know at all times which I found fatiging (granted the Velodyne was les intrusive). Even turned down I heard an over abundance of bass in passages where I didn't think it was nessasary, however, when that explosion happened I got that punch I want.

Is there such a sub that disappears (i.e. making your mains just sound bigger) and yet, during those theatrical instances that require it to go BOOM! it can? The child of a REL T1 and a Sunfire.

What crossover are you at ? Look like your sub running hot (Velodyne)

It may be a combination of things. Were the subs you listened to properly level matched with the rest of the system? Did you play with the crosover frequency.

If the sub is at a higher level than the mains, it will stand out.

Punch usually comes from higher frequencies: 80-200 Hz. It is possible your speakers need to be re-positioned in the room. You're seating position may be in a null in some of that upper bass frequency range.

All my observations were done within the dealers listening room. All three subs were place in the same corner and hooked up to a Marantz receiver in the same way (LFE out). The crossover was adjust to 60 and 80hz. I took it by this that their sound was inheirant to their design and not a matter of placement, though placement could have improved responce. I would think the REL capable of such frequencies, perhaps it is not able to compress the air in the room enough, however there is also the very deep base which is lacking. However, if I was watching a comedy with no action I would prefer the REL over one that would bombard me with bass.

Even a capable speaker in the wrong place would have issues. You would think the dealer would know this and set up appropriately though.

Hmm...

This is my problem. I understand most will want the deep powerful bass of what seems to be the norm in subwoofers, and I can appreciate this since I want it aswell. I can see my solution but it is beyond my finacial means. I would replace my current M22s with M60 or 80, this would give me the bass of the M22 w the REL and I could have a sub such as the Sunfire crossover very low. Perhaps that would keep it from being overly intrusive. Unfortunately this would cause marital problems..:) So I must continue my search of a hybrid.

Well, the M80s are certainly more capable in the bass department. You should be able to find something that blends well with the M22 in your room.

Have you considered any of Axioms offerings? Have you tried anything in your room?

If you are looking for a sub that is non intrusive (small) but has the "guts" for movies, check out the MJ Acoustics Pro 50 MkII.
Links here: http://www.mjacoustics.co.uk/MJ_Acoustics/Product_html/PRO_50_MKII.htm

It's about $800 CA, so about $400 UK, $600 US..

I have heard this sub in person and for it's size, it's very impressive. Very tight, fast, controlled and loud enough for full on movies in small to medium rooms.

The MJ seems to be close to the REL

Wolf, the factors in a sub not being "intrusive", i.e., not calling attention to itself as a separate entity, but giving the impression that the speakers are putting out more bass, are loudness level and crossover frequency. I have no difficulty in getting this effect with my EP500 by correctly calibrating the level(i.e, not setting it "hot")and using an 80Hz crossover. I've been able to do this with lesser subs as well, but this is because I certainly don't want any unrealistic "punch".

John, so I take I am better off with a sub such as the sunfire junior with more callibration

Calibrated correctly it won't be "intrusive". Whether at that level it gives you the "punch"(whatever that is to you)you want may be another matter.

That is what I thought I couldn't have

What subwoofer are you using right now and how much have you played around with positioning?

Any good subwoofer will produce fairly even bass and should not in and of itself sound unbalanced. However, the room plays a critical role and even thought the subs you listened to were “all in the same corner” they can't actually occupy the same space. Even moving a sub a foot or so on any direction even up can have a big impact on how strongly it energizes different room modes.

Also you mentioned that the crossovers were 60Hz and 80Hx which could make a big difference in the punch you feel. The HSU Mid-bass Module goes from 50Hz-150Hz and like Fred said the “punch” is in the that mid-bass range not down deep. It’s also best produced near the listener so that the direct energy is much stronger than what’s reflected from around the room.

Keep in mind that how the subs are performing in the store will have little bearing on how they will work when you get them home. I’ve had my EP500 in three different rooms and gotten 3 completely different results that I had to tweak to my liking with placement, crossover choices and ultimately equalization. You just can’t judge a subwoofer accurately w/o accounting for the room.

Well I can get the Sunfire True Subwoofer Junior for $600 off the retail $1500 Canadian. Has anyone had any experience with this one in their homes? Or is this sub a shouldn't buy

Sunfire makes some good subs, but I have never heard that particular one.

I would make sure you can return the sub free of charges before purchasing, just in case you are no happy with it's output in your room.

I have always been a believer, especially in an HT application, "you can't defy the laws of physics" so that's why I never been a fan of these small subs, including, among others, the Sunfire which I have heard. When it comes to deep bass, these "little" boxes just don't cut it.

Assuming my math is correct, and you have $900 to spend, you have a lot of choice, if not Axiom, ED, SVS, HSU, Outlaw and others which will give you much more bang for the buck, better overall performance and probably for less money.

I've had really good results with my M22's and the EP350. The 350 goes a bit higher than the EP500 which helps fill in the missing bass in the 100-150 hz range.

You can get plenty of bang for buck in the $900 region. I would also add Rythmik (Direct Servo) subs to that excellent list.

Alright scratch the Sunfire. And thank you for all your knowledge. If I may, one last comparison.

1. A Paradigm DSP-3200 which has been "corrected" using the PDK software (mics positioned in 5-7 areas in my room) or,

2. The new SVS SB12-NSD without room correction, other then the normal "sub crawl" and adjusting volume,phase..etc

I like the sound of the Paradigm over the SVS midline subs, it plays more linear/smoother, which would be why I like it better, but I am sure you would be very happy with either.