Hi all,

Finally took delivery of my M22 fronts and m2 center. Have only given a couple of test listens at this point, but man do they sound better than my old set up.

Ran audyssey and am wondering if the results look ok:
fronts (m22): 50hz
center (m2): 70 hz
rears (qs4): 90 hz

Look okay??

My sub was set at -6db. Gain was set at 6 of 10 for the set up.

Couple questions about the sub:
1. If want to turn it up some, does it matter if I just turn up the gain on the sub? or should I up the db on the amp? Or does it make a difference?

2. my sub is okay I guess, it is a mirage frx-s15. 15inch sub with 300watt amp. I've had it for probably about 13 years. I plan on replacing it over the few months or so.

I don't feel this sub really dishes out the bass. You can tell it is there, but I don't 'feel' it in those bass heavy scenes.

Question is: given that audyssey has set my sub at -6db, audyssey obviously feels it is there and is doing its thing. So if I buy a better sub (thinking about a pb12) is this going to give me more punch? or is audyssey just going to crank it down again?

Guess I am having a hard time understanding if buying a more powerful (and all around better) sub, is going to give me more punch if the output of my current sub is already being 'tuned down' by audyssey.

Not sure how your Audyssey works but I know with my YPAO I used it to establish PEQ parametres but I still manually set my speakers with a SPL metre. As for the gain being set -6dbs it really depends on the sensitive of your subwoofer and room placement. I'd use the SPL metre and set everything to 75dbs. As for a more sensitive subwoofer it could appear to be louder at a given voltage input than a less sensitive one set at the same input or level. That's why using this method allows for proper set up regarless of what the level is set at...I hope this makes some sense...

As for the pb12 its a decent sub and should probabaly give you more pucnh for home theather applications...IMO. I've audtioned the Energy s12(same as the Mirage s12) and the Svs dug much deeper.

Regards, Bill

PH, yes, those numbers all seem very reasonable, reflecting the capabilities of the speakers in your room environment. Nevertheless, I'd suggest manually resetting the M22 and M2 crossovers to 80Hz, to take a little more of the bass load off them and put it onto the sub, which handles it better.

The -6dB sub result isn't a problem, but if you re-run Audyssey you might start off with the sub volume control(it isn't a gain control, audio amplifiers have fixed gain)at 4 rather than 6 so that the net result is closer to 0. No, if you want to run the sub a few dB "hot"(but keep in mind that a correctly calibrated sub level shouldn't have the sub loud enough to draw attention to itself), it doesn't matter much which volume control that you turn up, although it isn't a good idea to have the control set near the max.

thanks. so setting the fronts to 80 all around will not bugger up any of the other auddyssey settings?

Maybe I will rerun with sub turned down a bit more.

Thanks.

No problem; Audyssey can equalize as far down as the frequency which it measured. Setting that crossover a little higher(not lower)than the measured number doesn't remove any EQ capability. The QS4s should remain at 90Hz.

You can adjust the crossover frequencies up after running audyssey without causing any problems, just can't adjust them down.

Beat me to it...

thanks. Just re-ran twice. 5 on the sub is the magic number 0db now. also set the front 80hz across the board. Will see how that sounds.

also, audyssey crossed the sub over at 90hz. I have the crossover on the sub all the way up, which is 100hz.

Getting back to: how does it work with a better quality, more powerful sub?

If you shoot for 0db, what does the more powerful sub buy you? I get that it might sound better, but will it have more punch for those big base scenes if it is set to the same 0db???

A larger/more powerful sub will just be able to reproduce reference levels at even lower frequencies. And perhaps be able to keep up a little better if you turn the main volume to 0 dB.

No matter the size of the sub, properly calibrated it will not outshine the rest of the speakers.

With a better/larger sub you get the ability to play lower for more shake and most likely a more linear playback. I also found that even the not so low notes are played with more authority even though it has the same SPL output of the lesser/older subs, most likely due to a more linear frequency response. This would be along the same lines of the VP150 and 180 having nearly the same SPL output but the 180 sounds better.

thanks for the answers. one more question: if audyssey originally set my m22's at 50hz and I have since increased to 80hz, I assume I can re-adjust lower to minimum of 50hz without buggering up the audyssey calculations?

Yes you can re-adjust it back down again w/o messing up Audyssey. The receiver retains the EQ curve it calculated until you run Audyssey again and generate a new curve.

One thing I’ve always done if I run Audyssey is to write down all the settings, speaker distance, level, crossover, etc. . . so I can always get back to exactly what Audyssey and the receiver calculated w/o having to run it again.

I wish I had done this although I don't care for Audyssey.

I know with YPAO...it allows you to skip over setting your content with or manually adjusted. Is this feature not available with audyssey or is it dependent on which version your receiver has?

I don’t care for Audyssey either. I find it does nothing to help the midrange. Kills the high end if using the “Audyssey” curve and what comes on my receiver isn’t powerful enough to help much for the really crappy room modes I have at the low end. OTOH the Audyssey installed on the SVS AS-EQ-1 does a killer job on the low end, 20Hz and below, but only for one seat.

That’s something I’ve always questioned about Audyssey is how you can apply one curve to each speaker to optimally correct for multiple seats especially when they are spread from wall-to-wall. Each seat is going to need a drastically different EQ curve and timing settings so in the end I just don’t see how it can help all that much unless used for just one seat or a small area fairly centrally located away from side walls.

But then I guess I just don’t know how to use it properly just like I didn’t know how much better an M80 center sounded to a VP150 center either.

Hi pheare,

I'd echo JohnK's suggestion of moving the crossover for the M22s up to 80 Hz (why push those modest 5.25-inch drivers hard at 50 Hz when the sub can cover that range with ease. . ).

As might be expected, I'd prefer you disengage the Audyssey EQ (it may help in the bass region) and see how things sound without Audyssey (and with it).

As to the elusive "punch" many listeners seek, after years of auditioning large and small speakers and subwoofers (as well as tons of live concerts), I've concluded there is a large audience who prefers the upper-bass (50 Hz to 120 Hz) emphasis (typically a boost of 3 to 6 dB over that range) often heard in clubs and concerts over truly smooth linear bass. It's also why some listeners like the one-note "disco bass" that issues from plenty of small cheap subwoofers. (Of course one can argue that if that disco bass represents what we actually hear in clubs, then an emphasized upper-bass hump is the more accurate one for that kind of pop/rock music.)

By the way, the Mirage subs of old are decent but in my experience (I have an old one in my storage room) they don't go as low as the Axiom EP350, EP500, 600 or 800.

Regards,
Alan

X-over points are based both on what your speakers are capable of in your room and by your preference. With any setup, there is a fuzzy middle-ground on x-overs where there's no "right" or "wrong" setting.

IMHO, 50hz on the M22's is too low.

http://axiomaudio.com/gallery_m22ti_diagram.html

They start to roll off at 90hz and are at -3db @ 60hz per Axiom's specs. I'd adjust their crossover to at least 60hz, if not 80hz. I'd bump the M2 setting up to 80hz as well. Whatever you set the M22's, I'd match the setting on the M2's since they use identical drivers and have similar frequency curves.

The difference between a "Good" sub and a "Bad" sub isn't necessarily quantity, it's quality. A "good" sub will amaze you with not only it's prodigious bass, but its ability to produce that bass cleanly and to seamlessly mesh with the rest of your system.

Good luck!

You've got it. Audyssey, and tools like it, can't "correct" anything. If you're far enough away from surfaces it may be able to fool your ears, but using the frequency domain to solve a time problem just doesn't work. But yeah, the farther you get from the sweet spot, and the closer you get to reflective surfaces, the more the flaws are exposed.

It's a shame, Audyssey has a really powerful EQing system. It would be great to linearize less than perfect speakers (where everything is still aligned in the time domain), but trying to correct a room with it is misguided. It just isn't possible to get the readings needed to correct a speaker outside of an anechoic chamber. So they're selling their tech the only way they can.

Just thinking out loud... If the upper bass punch was meant to be heard, wouldn't that be reflected in the recording, and not force listeners to adjust their sound system to produce it?

Yup.

That is all upto the recording engineer and I would think/hope the artist as well. They are the ones that decide how the recording will sound. The only way to know for sure if you are hearing the way it was recorded is to have as linear a playback as possible, thus the strive for that flat line response of a speaker/subwoofer; this at least eliminates the speaker messing with the sound.

There is no accounting for personnal listening preferences and some people just like that mid bass punch and will adjust their systems accordingly or seek out speakers/subs that play the way they think it should sound.

I would also agree that a 50HZ crossover on a pair of M22s just makes no sense at all. For an HT application in particular, back a few years ago, even with subs, I noticed at the mid-bass level Alan talks about, the M22s, used in a L/R configuration and a crossover of 80HZ, still strained a bit at high volumes so I chose to go the M60(later M80) route that pretty much eliminated that problem. Even with a crossover setting in the 60-80HZ range, the floor standers just seem to handle the low-mid bass with considerably more ease.

As far as a music is concerned, with any band or orchestra an electric bass in the mix(unless the player is messing with tunings) "bottoms out" at around 60HZ so that mid bass region is almost always going to predominate anyway.

Unless it is movies with effects and digital bass or pipe organ music, one will never hear bass much below the levels that I describe above, so a 80HZ setting for music, especially for smaller speakers, is much more practical, no matter what Audyssey measures in the set-up.

With the mid bass punch there is also the issue of speaker to listener distance which is IMO one of the most noticeable things that changes with distance. If I sit six feet from my M80s I feel an intense mid bass punch but as I reach 12 feet my normal listening distance it diminishes considerably as the direct energy from the speaker drops off and blends more with the reflected energy from the room surfaces. Unless you know something about what the sound engineer intended, like the EBM I listen to, hard to say how much punch they intended you to feel.

So for things like explosions in HT listening I go with experience which tells me that shock waves are directional and can carry one hell of a wallop. This is why I usually have my front speakers crossed over around 40-50Hz since where I have to place my subwoofer for the flattest bass is not the best place for delivering mid bass punch to the chest. Still eyeballing one of those HSU mid bass modules, maybe a tax refund purchase. . . .