Right now I have a system consisting of a Yamaha htr-6190(RXV-1800) Paradigm Monitor 11, CC290, Mini Monitors. All are the v5 series. I use a PS3 slim for my blu-ray/streaming etc and use my laptop extensively via hdmi as well for music and movies. I am interested in Axiom and want to replace my setup I have now. I have been very happy with my system and it has served me well. I guess curiosity is getting the best of me. I really do enjoy the Studio V4 line from Paradigm and have read on here that Axiom is comparable/better than the Studio line. I am 27 and never heard an Axiom setup yet. How much of an upgrade can I expect going from my setup to one consisting of M80/M60 towers, VP180/VP150 centers and M22/M3's as rears. (Right now I have nowhere to put the QS8's unfortunately.) I use the system for both music and movies. My price range is around 2000-2500 cdn. I sit 9 ft from the tv, the room is 12 ft wide by 24** ft long(half the room for hometheatre and the back half for a seating area and table) and 9 ft ceilings. My fronts are about a foot and half away from wall. Will Axiom be as bright as the monitor series? I would like a little less bright to be honest at higher volumes or I just need to use a better source lol.

Can the Yammy 1800 handle the 4 ohm loads across the front from the M80 and Vp180. I listen at both low levels and higher levels which I had measured to be up to 95db***(using iPhone 4 with an app to measure, not sure how accurate it is.) Eventually I will get into separates and am interested in Emotiva, Parasound(used), Sunfire(used) and the like that offer good value for your money.



Just curious of what I can expect going from my system to an Axiom system. I am open to everyone's opinion and suggestions, not going to hurt my feelings here. I have been frequenting these forums for a few years from time to time and look forward to hearing from you guys.

I guess the question would be "what would you do if you were in my shoes?". I have a general idea of what I want to do but just need that extra push over the edge.

Thanks in advance guys.

Chris

Here is a link to my CAM profile where you can see pictures of my setup:

canuckaudiomart.com/thebirdprofile

Chris, I looked at your pictures and it isn't apparent why you say that you can't place QSs. At worst, even if the side surrounds couldn't be wall mounted, they could be placed on stands in a similar position to what you do now. The wider dispersion of the QSs would be of particular benefit at such close distances.

As to the 6190 and the rated "4 ohm" impedance of the M80/VP180(more realistically about a 6 ohm average, considering the overall frequency range), it would handle them easily at 95dB, which would use only about 10 watts at most at your listening position.

if you would like a little less bright, you should try some sound absorbing (reflection absorbing) on the side walls, between your seating position and the front L/R speakers, and maybe on the ceiling too.
the back of the room should have some diffusing material, like picture frames or better yet, a book case that takes a good part of that wall.

tweeter "brightness" depends a lot on these factors, and if there is not enough sound absorbing/diffusing material, the high frequencies bounce around on the surfaces and reinforce themselves until they hit your ear and make you wince.

Hi Chris,

I agree with Mssrs. Bellemare and K.

Try to find a way to make the QS8's work in your room; they are exceptional, and might be a good first step.

I don't think you'd have trouble with your Yamaha. If you did, you could just add a stereo amp and use its pre-outs.

Excellent observation about wall treatment, particularly on the right side. I'll bet you would notice a very significant overall improvement simply by hanging a rug or something on that short wall next to the right speaker.

I have not heard your Paradigms, but they are well-respected and - if you are happy - you might be better served with other kinds of upgrades. I think that getting M80's and a VP180 would probably be an "upgrade", but I don't know that such a purchase would present good value for you.

Your sub seems fairly small for such a large room. That room looks like it would accommodate a projector and screen nicely.

I'd get (and properly position) the QS8's, use the mini-monitors for rear speakers (i.e. go to 7.1) and think of upgrading the sub rather than replacing the L/C/R.

Thanks a lot guys for the suggestions and opinions, very appreciated. I'll look to see what I can do about the wall treatment on the side and behind the speakers. It would be tough to accommodate the vp180 as the depth on my stand is 16" and I assume there is a port in the middle of the speaker which would line up with the back leg of the stand and now sure if the middle rack would like the 56 lbs. Plus I'd need a few inches for my speaker cable with banana plugs. The manual of the stand doesn't indicate what each of the levels can take for weight, just a gross weight of 300 lbs. So on top I have the TV which is 90lbs, in the middle the cc290 which is 32 lbs then the bottom I'd say about 45 lbs.

I think for the time being I'll focus on some room treatments and look into a new subwoofer. Any suggestions on a Sub. I could go with a DSP 3200 to keep it all Paradigm but brand name doesn't matter. The Axiom ones are a little more than what I would like to spend.

Thanks.

Hi Wiggins,

Don't get carried away with room treatments before you hear your speakers. From the pictures of your setup, it appears there's a rug or carpet on the floor, which is excellent. You do NOT want to create a dead-sounding listening environment.

Adding sound-absorbing baffles to side walls may increase dialog intelligibility with home theater, but it will also reduce overall spaciousness and depth for music playback (because more reverberant energy is absorbed).

Regards,
Alan

a good and cheap way to absorb sidewall reflections is to affix on that wall a thin egg crate like foam mattress to the wall in such a way that it makes waves in a vertical manner. in order for that to look good, you then suspend drapes or whatever over the foam.

this is a minimal treatment.

I agree on the QS8 comments. For a sub in this price range, I would seriously consider the new HSU VTF-15H, it is getting rave reviews and looks to be a bargain. Anything for HSU, SVS, ED and the likes will serve you well.

I took my Denon 3802 and my M80's a few years ago to the Home Theatre place here in Halifax. We tested the Paradigm monitor 11's and also the studio 60's and 100's against my M80's.
I had no problem taking my M80's over the Monitors and the Studio 60's. However ,it was a toss up with the 100's and M80's however, I think I gave the nudge to the Paradigm 100's .... but ever so slightly. Then, we are talking a $1200 speaker at the time against a $3800 speaker and for $2000 less, I took my M80's and didn't look back.
the other thing is ...here in Canada, Halifax to be exact the M80's VP180 and 4 QS8's are $3200 tx icl ....Paradigms Studio 100's, matching centre and 4 ADP's cost $6600 plus tax. They may sound better over all, but I think only slightly and sure as hell not $4000 better.

Looking at a few subs right now, the Paradigm DSP 3400 for $897 plus tax local so around a grand, Emotiva Ultra 12 for $638 shipped to Nova Scotia and ED A5s-300 for $550 plus shipping, still waiting on a quote. Looking for other suggestions in the $500-$1000 range.

Did you check with SVS or Hsu?

I'd do the ED rather than the Emotiva, but that's just based on my perception as a consumer, not any experience.

Paradigm seems to be a good value in Canada.

The ED A5s-300 can be shipped to me for a landed cost of $685(550+135 shipping fed ex). Will look at other options as well. Would like to keep it around 700 I guess.

Did you try your local Audio Video Unltd when you priced the Paradigm sub? I've found them to be pretty good and willing to dicker....bought my DSP3400 for $700 a couple of yrs ago.

The most cost effective and best value would be Paradigm or going with one of the SVS subs through their Canadian distributor. Importing subwoofers from the US to Canada is expensive and the final cost to your doorstep goes well beyond the actual shipping costs from the manufacturer.

This will give you an idea of the extra costs involved.

http://www.thefinalcost.com/

Another option you might want to consider is this...budget permitting> http://funkywaves.net/specials.cfm?item=fw12_x

It's being reviewed along with the Svs pb12 plus, Rythmik FV15HP,Hsu VTF15H. You can follow the thread over at Avs or Audioholics...fwiw.

Just for a comparsion the hsu is the least expensive of those subs ~900.00cdn but with shipping charges your talking about >$1300.00 cdn. So that sub I have linked is really an excellent buy...of course another decent option is to buy from Axiom and I'd steer clear of any of those B&M store subs...JMO.

If the Hsu fits…

The vtf15h delivered to the door of another member living just east of me paid 1350.00 Cdn in total. You not only pay the shipping fees from Hsu to our border which runs you about $1125.00 cdn. You then get whacked again for an addition 200.00 or so...after the fact!

Just saying....

This may help with your questions about your amp I do not know if the RXV line is different than the HTR line on the internals but here is a link I found on my RXV2700 which would be the same as an RXV2800
AMP specs

Later
Phil

The htr series is identical to the RXV the only exception is zone 2 remote and the HTR was exclusive to future shop but not 100% sure.

You say 95 db was a high listening level, that would take about 1 watt with the M80/Vp180, so your avr should easily work.

Check out sonicboomaudio.com for SVS subs in Canada.

Thanks for all the suggestions and everything else again. Still deciding what I would like to do but that's half the fun. Looking at all different options.

My stand cannot fit a VP180 unfortunately but the Vp150 will fit perfect obviously. Just curious if the new tweaked crossover and tweeters have made the VP150v3 sound fuller and less of a tinny sound as I have read on here. (I have not heard the VP150 and just going by what I have read). Would I be better off to go with the M80 or M60 with my current setup?

Sorry for all the questions as I know there are a million different scenarios one can take.

Well, everybody is likely to say that if money is no object, you should get the M80's.

I have M60's and I think they're terrific.

Thanx Tom, do you have the V2 or V3?

Just to further muddy the waters, for a Sub I got an Outlaw LFM1-Plus and have been thrilled with it. I had it shipped to a US Company in Blaine that specializes in cross border shipping/receiving. Picked it up there and drove it across the border (I live 15min from the Border near Vancouver).

Bought it on Sale (10% off + Free Shipping) picked it up and drove it across the border ($60 Duty)

Had to find and silence all the stuff in my room that rattles and vibrates... but if that was the biggest problem I had...

snazzed

I have the M60 Ti's (like V1).

I like the way they look, I like the way they sound.

AND there are numerous people here that have heard BOTH in the same room (I am not one of them). I have heard the M80's on several occasions and yes, they are terrific. My perception is that they do handle a bit more power with a bit more grace. Without extended listening in a familiar environment, I am unable to know whether their performance at lower volume levels is "better". I believe that jakewash has made that comparison and now drinks the M80 kool-aid.

I listen to music and movies pretty loud in a pretty big room, and don't feel the need for M80's. YMMV.

Snazzed - good call on the Outlaw subs. Hey, how about a subwoofer kit from Creative Sound Solutions? They get good reviews.

Ahhh, what's wrong with the Ep-350 or 500.
The EP350 blows the doors off the Paradigm that I know.

maybe try out the Energy Reference at futureshop over in Dartmouth Crossing. Get the young kids to put it on the floor, very impressing sub

Please elaborate on your testing procedure......

DSP3400.......300watts
EP350.........300watts

DSP3400.......14" driver
EP350.........12" driver

DSP3400.......DSP controlled
EP350.........N/A

DSP3400.......In room +/-3db 19hz
EP350.........In room +/-3db 28hz

Apologies....the EP350 in room response is +3/-9 at 18-150hz.

(+/-3db at 28 is anechoic, not in room)

I like M80 kool-aid

In my brief experience, A/B comparison with the v2 M60/M80s. I found the M80s to be cleaner/clearer at lower volume levels as well as having a better soundstage - more open. I found the M60s to sound much more like the M80s at louder volumes where they start to open up and the soundstage expands out beyond the speakers, but YMMV as each room will have an affect on these things.

FWIW, I like the look of the M60's better and once I stopped comparing the M60 to M80s I found the M60s to be more than enough. I sometimes still wish I had kept the M60s especially when I play some poorly recorded music as they were a tad more forgiving with poor source material, not by much, but just enough to be noticeable, at least to these ears.

Thanks Jake. I wish the 60's came with a grill that went to the bottom as well and covered the bottom port as I like that look better(would axiom be able to make a grill like that for the 60?) How would you compare the 60 to the monitor 11 that I have now? What would I expect to gain or lose perhaps?

I would get the VP150 as well and hope it integrates well with either and hope it's a improvement on the cc290. I heave read the vp150 is an "underperformer" and curious if the new drivers and tweaked crossover, tweeters have fixed this perception/issue.

AFAIK, the M60s do cover the bottom port with grill, it's just that the grill doesn't extend to the bottom. Like Jake, I prefer the look of the M60s, but I do love the sound of my 80s.

Lol sorry assumed it didn't as I was thinking of the M80 as the port is near the bottom and forgot the 60 had it up a little ways.

Jason, I appreciate and respect your opinion and hope that you did not misconstrue my kool-aid comment as pejorative.

Not at all Tom, not at all. I caught the tone it was typed in

Chris, I suspect you may find the M60s and Monitor 11's very close as I A/B'd a set of M80s to Monitor 11's (v3 or 5, I don't remember and too lazy to find that thread) and there was not alot of difference between the 2 except some subtleties, a little more detail on the M80s, slightly more bass, very similar to what the differences are said to be between the M80s/M60s. I would certainly recommend ordering the 60's or 80's and trying them out yourself as we all hear things differently, so you may find them quite different .............or not.

Look at these:

Aperion
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/NEW-Bravus-II-10D-Powered-Subwoofer,274,66,812.aspx

Outlaw
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html

Axiom EP500

Okay guys, I'm soon adopting myself into the Axiom family. Sold my Monitor 11's and CC290 v5's. I'll keep my mini monitors for my rears for now. Now it's time to get down to business on what to get. M60+VP150 or M80/VP150. No room for the 180 centre. This is powered by an RXV 1800 receiver. I seen the M80 in Auction for 1180 and he M60 is 889 plus 420 for the centre. So a difference of a couple hundred should only mean get the M80 right?

Opinions and suggestions. Did I make a good move or bad move selling what I had in your opinion? I guess I'll find out when I hear it. Right now I have my mini monitors as my stereo front with my sub and I'm impressed playing some Mark Knopfler right now.

Not so fast, Pally! We have standards here!

Are you from a tiny African nation no one has heard of?
Have you experienced any 'disrupted' adoptions by celebrities?
Will you grow up to turn on us and write a vicious tell-all?

'Yes' to any one of these will suffice.

P.S. 18 months and still in love w/my M60/500 system. In real wood, ya chea...

lol, nice comment, made me laugh and good to know you are still loving your system

Chris: Do you think you can come up with the scratch for real wood veneer?

I need more people in my camp when we launch our assault on the "Vinylistas."

I think I will go with the Black oak vinyl.

Adrian

sorry it was the DSP3200
whatever, those mean little to me. when we was in the room checking them out the Axiom seem to have faster action, tighter bass. Paradigm seemed like it was muffled at times. Kind of like if you were to put it behind a foam wall.

The 3200 has less output/impact than the Ep350/500/600, etc. I compared the 3200 to an EP350v2 and an EP350v3 and the DSP3200 fell in between the 2 for overall SQ with the EP350v3 providing the best overall SQ.

Okay so the VP150 has been bought already and waiting on some M80's right now. I am looking at used power amps for the M80's and want to get some suggestions and recommendations for under 500.

So far I have seen ads for these and may be able to make offers on these asking prices. These will be paired up with my RXV 1800 pre outs for the M80 and I'll use the receiver to power the rest for the time being. All suggestions and recommendations appreciated.

Bryston 3b for 425 local

Adcom GFA 555 for 450 plus shipping

Adcom GFA 555 Mk II 450 plus shipping

Adcom GFA 5400 390 plus shipping

Rotel RB 1080 for 500 plus sipping

Parasound HCA-750A for 300 plus shipping

NAD 2600A with new relays and serviced 350 plus shipping

Carver M500T serviced all caps replaced with upgraded caps, resolder as needed, clean circuit board, replace main relay with new higher currrnt model, and replace all heat stressed parts. Reset Bias to factory specs. Unit has hard to find rack handles. Bulbs replaced on meters. This unit better than new. High res pics on request. 350 plus shipping

Carver 1.0T serviced like above 500T 350 plus shipping

NAD 214 with Monitor 1000 Preamp 425 plus shipping

AT1502 500 plus shipping

All of these are in Canada as well.

Thanks in advance

Well, I'm not sure you NEED an amp. You might go ahead and get the M80's and enjoy them with your receiver, first.

Of the group you listed, I'd do the Bryston, Rotel or ATI.

Ya I haven't got the M80's at this time so I don't know yet but like the confidence you have in my receiver.

Thanks.

Hey, Chris finally put who you were together

nice sub lol

You will have to become a demo man here ....So I can come in and here those M80's

How's it working out for you? Hope it surpassed expectations

Chris, no unusual amount of confidence is necessary. The M80s are slightly above average in sensitivity and need less power than many smaller speakers such as the M2 and M22. Your 1800 is highly likely to be entirely sufficient. At this time your amplifier budget shouldn't be just less than $500, it should be less than $.01.

Another vote for using the 1800 first and then see if you really NEED that amp, I doubt you will.

Now you may still WANT that amp for cleaner/louder sound only a seperate amp can deliver.

Yeah I got to try things out first before I get ahead of myself. I'm looking forward to it. Pretty sure my mini-monitors should blend in well with them. I have them up front for now waiting for the new speakers and I am pretty impressed with their performance, especially paired with the subwoofer I just sold.

I wish the wifey would allow the VP180 but it ain't happening just like the CC390 wasn't happening. I told her the new centre was wider than my original CC-290.... but before I finished my sentence she had a little conniption about it, I then told her it was only 3/4 inch wider and 2/3 the weight. The one thing I am looking forward to though is how shallow the VP150 is as the CC290 was fairly deep and my speaker cables were hard to plug in as they are fairly stiff and didn't want to damage the cables or the speaker inputs on the speaker. Also looking forward to have the option to angle the centre channel more to the listening area. With the CC290 I experimented with putting a 1 inch binder underneath to angle it up before I bought anything to use as a wedge. We noticed an improvement overall as the centre is not the same height as our coffee table and also when we put our feet on top of the table during the movie. I know it is best not to have anything between you and the speaker but it is the way our living room area is.

Hey Chris ...
when you get those 80's in maybe I will have to bring in my MK's and have a side by side demo.

really interested in seeing the diferences on the front stage.