Has anyone heard a difference between receivers?

Posted by: Andre

Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/28/11 02:29 PM

Different companies make the amp sections for their receivers differently. Many times the relationship between speakers and amp are love, hate, or ehh whatever...:)

Has anyone found a certain manufacturer that makes the axioms (especially the M22s) sound "better" in their opinion.

Denon, Onkyo, H&K, Yamaha...others?
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/28/11 02:39 PM

Ohboy.
Posted by: nickbuol

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/28/11 02:50 PM

Real answer, when comparing similar quality receivers (not the bare bones base models) you will find that you should be able to make the speakers sing. Of course, some people will say that Brand X is better than Brand Y. Maybe, but then there are the cost variables... Is Brand X worth the extra money over Brand Y? Does Brand Y have what I need now, but Brand X is more "future proof"?

Pretty much any of the mainstream receiver/amp companies allow enough tweaking and tuning of the sound to make them all fairly comparable.

Anyone else who says otherwise is just being a booger. :-P
Posted by: Andre

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/28/11 05:07 PM

So the amplifier sections of any manufacture comparing receivers that are the same price point will sound the same driving axiom speakers?
Posted by: nickbuol

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/28/11 05:26 PM

If you do an A-B comparison you will hear different things, but this is SOOOOO subjective that what sounds good to you, might not sound so good to someone else.
Posted by: Andre

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/28/11 05:38 PM

THX certification, torodial transformers, somepoeople beleive that the receivered weight is a indication of its prowess. I remember looking at headroom figures at one point or if the wattage doubles when going from 8 to 4 ohm loads.

However, none of this is any indication of how good the speakers will sound in the end. Sigh...I could AB the whole range to hear which one I like the best.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/28/11 05:47 PM

pretty much... the only real difference is the amount of power...


i have krell amps that are rated for 500W @4ohms.. with a Krell processor...

Do my axioms "sound" better because of the brand of electronics that i have... nope, not really.. I use to have Marantz, then had NAD and now have the Krell gear... There was no hugely noticeable difference in sound quality.. The only reason i have the amps that i do now is because i needed more power and can run balanced inputs, my 135W per channel marantz mm9000 was being driven into clipping region during some movies... with the Krell i did notice other improvements though..


If you are buying a reciever, i would buy on the options you feel are more important. The M22's don't need large amounts of power. Any of the major brands will have no problem powering your speakers.

Pretty much all Solid state amplifiers will "sound" the same, wether they are inside a receiver or not, the only real difference is the amount of power the amp can supply.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/28/11 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Andre
I remember looking at headroom figures at one point or if the wattage doubles when going from 8 to 4 ohm loads.



This is only true if the amp is designed to operate at 4 ohms. otherwise it will be maybe 70% more power or somewhere around there... not 100% more power...

Call axiom and ask what the minimum impedance of the m22's is. They don't have an impedance graph posted for the m22's... If the 22's don't go below 6ohms then no worries... With the M80's they have a drop to 3ohms at the lower end of the frequency range. i would guess the 22's would have a similar drop, but only by 1 or so ohms, not a reduction in impedance by half... still a ways away from 4ohms...
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/28/11 09:58 PM

Andre, welcome. Although the internet makes valuable audio information available, some discussions turn into a quagmire of misinformation. From your opening comments it seems as if you may have read something rather fanciful. The ideal of amplifier design is "a straight wire with gain", i.e., it makes the incoming voltage strong enough to drive a speaker, but adds absolutely no distortion or other unwanted effects. This ideal is impossible to achieve fully, but for many years it's been known how to design amplifiers at relatively low cost which have audibly flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion when operated within their power limits. Nothing more is possible, regardless of cost.

Although some discussions rather naively assign a "house" sound character to various makes(e.g., Yamaha is "bright", Marantz is "warm"), any engineer at a major manufacturer who came up with a unit that had an audible coloration would probably be immediately fired for gross incompetence.

The editor of the Audio Critic summarized this quite well a few years ago in "Electronic Signal Paths Do Not Have a Personality!" .

We're in control of those features of receivers which do in fact change the sound, e.g., volume controls, tone controls, room equalization, etc., but the basic amplification process is audibly transparent. Buy a receiver on the basis of features and price, but there's no need to worry about an inherent "sound quality".
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/29/11 12:19 AM

Amps only produce about another 50% increase in power dropping from 8 Ohms to 4 Ohms.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/29/11 02:22 AM

Dak, as shown in the NRC measurements here , the M22 impedance drops to about 3 ohms in the upper mid-range/lower treble, but this is certainly no cause for worry and hasn't given me any for the past 9 years. The heat load on an amplifier isn't determined by the lowest speaker impedance in a particular frequency range, but by the average impedance over the entire frequency range when playing music.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/29/11 01:15 PM

My point john was that the minimum impedance is the lowest that the amp will ever see.

I am surprised that they go as low as 3ohms, i did not think it would be that low. Even still them amp will only see a 3ohm load for short periods of time, and at 5khz infrequently.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 10/29/11 08:14 PM

The M22's minimum impedance is quite low, even with a negative phase angle but it is up in the frequency range where the power demands are not that great. Other than that it is a typical load.
Posted by: julian_y

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/07/11 10:08 AM

I compare Watts, DAC and DSP.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/07/11 10:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Andre
Different companies make the amp sections for their receivers differently. Many times the relationship between speakers and amp are love, hate, or ehh whatever...:)

Has anyone found a certain manufacturer that makes the axioms (especially the M22s) sound "better" in their opinion.

Denon, Onkyo, H&K, Yamaha...others?

No.
And no one on these forums to my knowledge has ever performed a properly controlled, random, blind, SPL matched and instantaneously switched A/B listening test to even remotely provide confidence of such a conclusion.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/07/11 02:44 PM

Scientist.

wink
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/08/11 10:21 AM

Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Scientist.

wink

Beer-o-phile


Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/08/11 09:28 PM

Phagocyte.
Posted by: medic8r

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/08/11 11:03 PM

Homophone.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/08/11 11:18 PM

Chatterbot.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/08/11 11:20 PM

Calvin.
Posted by: BobKay

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/09/11 11:36 AM

Luther.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Has anyone heard a difference between receivers? - 11/09/11 11:39 AM

Al.