OK....back to my "go to" source of Home Theater info - the Axiom Forums!

Several years back I bought the entry level Yamaha Receiver RXV663 to access the latest surround technology. Normally, I don't buy the entry level items and I am now regretting that I did on the receiver. I have already had it in the shop once because one of the surround channels stopped playing. Now, one of the front channels is cutting in and out and the same surround is completely out again. I'm thinkin' I may be done with Yamaha - even though that is all I have ever owned. SO.....I know there is a big Denon contingent here that is usually happy to recommend. Any input is welcome. I did look at the AVRxxxxCI series starting with the 2312 or maybe the 3312....But maybe the 2112 is adequate?

Rob, if you definitely want to go with a Denon, I'll zero in on them in some detail, and they'd be fine choices. My first choice, however, in the price range that you're looking at would be the Onkyo 709 factory refurb available here at A4L for about $470.

I have had zero problems since nov 2007 with my denon 3808. Haven't kept up with their current models but just get the one that has the features you need. Be sure and check around online for a good deal.

The Pioneer VSX-1121-K is also available from Amazon for around $450 right now. Much better feature set than the Denons. It has MCACC instead of Audyssey, though, and I'm honestly not sure how the two compare.

I don't know how they compare either, but my new receiver has MCACC and the feature works really good.

A4L has the Denon 3312ci for $699 (refurbished) with free shipping. I am still trying to decide between this Denon and the Marantz SR6006. Have heard that the Denon 3312ci has had firmware issues

I wouldn't touch the Marantz with a 10 foot pole. The Denon's already down on features, the Marantz is going to be worse.

Is there any difference in reliability between the Japanese made Denons and the Chinese ones?

The older 3808 was made in Japan as was my 2808. The newer 23xx models are of Chinese manufacture.

John
Denon is not necessarily the only choice. I am not familiar with A4L - They seem to be reputable? Have you had experience with them and with refurbs? I am also curious as to the thought behind recommending Onkyo?

Ken,
You are recommending Pioneer - is that your brand of choice? Do you have a sales pitch prepared? Truth is that I have not looked at receivers in a long time so I don't know what features are supposed to be desirable. I don't really need upscaling. I like the Ipod connection, 90-100 watts per channel (or more), the ability to decode the latest surround codecs and at least 4 HDMI inputs.

Audyssey and MCACC - I tried Yamaha's version but ultimately went with a Radio Shack meter and measuring tape. Are thes features worthwhile? It seems that the current genre of receivers is trying to be the brain of a network system - is that worthwhile? Any other whistles or buzzers worth looking for? I listed what I thought I needed - or what I use on the Yamaha in my response to Ken........Rob

Nope, I've been trying to decide on a receiver in the same price range. I've discounted the Denons, because of their comparative lack of inputs/features, so I'm pretty much between the Onk 709, 809, and the Pio 1121. Leaning towards the 809 because of Audyssey MultiEQ, which is supposed to be quite good. I also want Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ, which adjust the comparative volume (explosions vs voices, for example) and EQ for different volume levels on the receiver. Pioneer may or may not have anything like that. I think they do, but they're less vocal about it than Audyssey.

Your other qualifications are pretty much available on anything. They've been seriously bumping HDMI inputs lately--the Onks have 8!

A4L is quite reputable. They mostly sell refurbs. I've had good experience with them in the past for less expensive items, but I'm considering them if I go with an Onk.

Fred,
Good question. I don't know what the latest thought on Chinese electronics is? I have been on a Bird Forum to research a binocular purchase. There is a lot of discussion on Chin Bins and the fact that their manufacture is getting better.

Argon,

I'd always opt for Japanese-built electronics over Chinese-manufactured, unless you know for sure that the Chinese-built have Japanese quality-control guys on site all the time. I suspect that's impossible to find out. I'd be surprised if there are any AV receivers left that are actually Japanese-built, given the relatively high cost of labor in Japan vs China.

As to brand reliability, I'd put Denon up at the top and Sony near the bottom. Onkyos in recent years seem to be pretty good, as are Pioneers. Refurbished models tend to be very good buys, as any design glitches or unreliability tend to be corrected in the refurbishing procedure. I still believe the power-amp sections of Denons are better designed because even the entry-level Denons were always able to drive our 4-ohm M80 towers without shutting down, unlike some Onkyos and Pioneers of years past. Harman-Kardons are like the Denons in that even the least costly are able to drive 4-ohm loads; as to reliability, they're somewhere midway in the list I mentioned.

The presence of Audyssey or similar auto-setup schemes shouldn't influence your decision. They are all somewhat error-prone, especially in the area of subwoofer and surround calibration.

Regards,
Alan

Thanks, Alan. The audio set up feature will not influence my decision. As for refurbished goods - I had never considered them before - but recently one of my daughters decided she wanted a Digital SLR. Despite my Canon reco, she bought a refurbed Nikon from B&H. I was quite impressed with her choice and it seemed brand new.

As for the Chinese manufacture - If I bought from A4L would the fact that the product has been refurbed in the US account for any quality control issues related to the Chinese labor?

M80's are not an issue as I have M60's and am Very Happy with them.

I bought mt Onk 707 from A4L a couple years back. I've had zero problems with it.

For what it's worth, I read that Audyssey does sub EQ better than MCACC. Also, the word "audisy" sounds better than the word
"emkak."

I would select Denon or Onkyo in your price range. For the most part they will all have HDMI conversion and features/inputs for most users. Also, Audyssey over the other setup tools should be a consideration in my opinion. Contrary to what many say, it really makes a world of difference and even Axiom speakers sound better using it. It also does a wonderful job for subwoofer calibration, actually is strong in that area. In my opinion, Audyssey should not be placed in the same "stay away from auto calibration" mentality as years past.

Hmmm, seems like we have contrasting views here.

Hmm. OK, now that I've re-inspected the Denon line, it is a little down on features in comparison to the Onks at the same price point, but not as dramatically as I thought. Add in free shipping on the **12 Denons from AC4L, and the 3312 compares pretty well to the 809, although it's not as cool looking.

I think you guys are on the right track (especially Ken). Don't forget shoponkyo.com for refurbs directly from the manufacturer. That's where I got my 805, and it's been super. In my room, I like the audyssey multieq xt.

True Rick, it would pretty boring around here if we all shared the same opinions.

At the moment, ShopOnkyo doesn't have as good a price on the refurbs as AC4L, unfortunately, particularly not on the 809.

I have been eyeing the Onkyo's myself and they seem to have just that one extra item for the same price point that a similar priced Denon is missing. I think either manufacturer is still the best bang for the buck.

I thought the majority here were pro Denon? I never really considered the Onks before but now we have several testimonials? Who woulda thunk? Any further testimonials for A4L?

I've said it before here, but I'll repeat it in this thread as well: I love my Onkyo TX-SR706. Going on three years now, and not one problem.

I moved up from a "budget" Panasonic receiver. My buddy has a nice Yamaha AVR that he paid well over $1,000 for some years ago. Nice unit, but the Onkyo has more useful features. The new ones are even better - the network stuff is really nice - for even less than I paid.

I am not in any particular camp, but one thing I found with the Pio's using the ICE amps was that you could get more headroom in the amp section compared to the same $ value for Denon's or other. And I also found that the Pio's were very honestly rated if not even slightly underrated in terms of the claimed power output. I have a Pio Elite SC-05 right now. If I were to buy another amp tomorrow though, not sure which way I would go. Many things to consider and figure if they are important to you. Anyway, just thought I'd throw in y 2 cents on the amp section. Good luck!

I bought a Pioneer SC-55 a few weeks ago. I wasn't a big fan of solid state amps but I love this thing. It doesn't have the ice amps, Pioneer made their own class d amp. It sounds great.

The room correction strategies might be a little kooky but don't discount the fun factor.

Am I mistaken in thinking Pioneer licensed the ICE technology from B&O? Do they make their own class D amps now?

They did license before, but make their own now beginning with the SC-55 and SC-57.

Good to know, thanks Lampy.

Yes, Rob; A4L is highly reputable and is a fully authorized Onkyo(and more recently, Denon)dealer. Their offerings are quite popular on the various audio forums. As to factory refurbished, yes my experiences have been entirely satisfactory, to the extent that my attitude now is that I would feel more confident in buying one rather than a brand-new unit, even disregarding any price saving.

Just about any modern unit has the features that you mention. Also, the ones you're considering can all be considered to be fairly similar in maximum power capacity, and the ratings are made pursuant to the FTC(Federal Trade Commission)amplifier power regulations and have to be "honest".

As a practical matter, probably the most significant feature on whatever you get will be the auto-calibration and room equalization system used. Manually using an SPL meter and tape measure isn't likely to match the accuracy in calibration that any of the auto-cal systems achieve(especially with subs)because the element of human error is added. Also, no room equalization can be done with a meter and tape measure, and this is going to be a significant factor in the final sound.

Over the years here preferences in receivers have changed as they've changed. Onkyo and Denon have selected the Audyssey system in preference to their former in-house auto-calibration and room EQ. Primarily for that reason my suggestions have centered on them, with Onkyo being more frequently mentioned because of somewhat better prices being available for similarly-featured units.

The SC series of PIO amps are different beasts then the usual elite line up, the SC series is much more robust IMO.

I thought that the 1121 and the SC-52 were essentially the same?

If I recall, that was the first model year where Onkyo receivers performed well. The previous two models had overheating issues.

Since the SRxx6 models reviews and feed back have been consistently positive.

I was actually eying the 706 when I found a good deal on the 2808.

Its interesting that Pio is making their own class D amp. IMO class D has come of age. There are more and more quality class D amps coming to market.

Drr... there is no SC-52... That's the VSX-52. Disregard...

Another vote for refurbs. I picked up a refurb HK over 6 years ago, still going strong. Interesting thing about amp design. My HK is rated 70W per channel and my new Onkyo I picked up for our family room is 100W per. The HK probably weights as much as 2 or even 3 of the Onkyo's, heh.

H/K's are notoriously underrated from the factory, IIRC most that have been lab tested usually output around 100W.

Not many of us H/K owners around anymore I don't believe, I am very happy with mine.

i got a H/K a few months ago; i'm not using the internal amps, but everything else works fine.

Thanks, John & Ben for the comments on refurbs and Onkyos. Last night, the Yamaha performed flawlessly - all channels playing as they should. If it played that way all the time, I would be happy to stay the course. However, it is like there is a ghost in the machine - so to speak. Besides the channels not playing, I sometimes have what I think are "HDMI Handshake" issues. If I set up to watch TV, all the sound will be coming from the left main - nothing from the center or right. I can usally correct it by hitting another activity on the 880 - like watch DVD - and then switching back watch TV. May not be a handshake issue - may just be the Yamaha not performing correctly? Qui sais? The hurdle is going to be convincing my wife that missing the right main and left back means we need a new receiver.

Just for kicks, did you try unplugging it for the day or see if there is a "reset"?

Well....I verbally threatened it with great physical pain but no, I can try that tonight....

HK is not the company is used to be.... Proceed with caution if you are set on buying one. Don't even get me started on Marantz.....

The Onkyo's certainly have a ton of features packed into their boxes at ridiculous price points. But when you look at the top tier models, I think Denon gets the nod.

I tend to prefer Denon, but I did recently order an entry level Onkyo 509 for my mud room. Stupid cheap for the feature set.

The negative reviews on the Onkyos were all about the HDMI outs failing. Anyone have any bad experiences?

sorry for the mixup; what i got is a Marantz.

My 706 has been connect to my Sharp LCD via HDMI since day one. No problems, but I will say that the handshaking seems to be a tad on the slow side. But since I've not seen other HDMI receivers in action, I have no real frame of reference. I only know that switching inputs takes a few seconds. No big deal, really.

It would not be a big deal if it was a few seconds as long as it makes the switch. The issue that I experience is the sound is not coming out of the correct speakers. The only way that I have been able to correct is to switch to a different activity and then back again.

Rob, I haven't had any problems like that with my 805.