Audyssey weirdness

Posted by: Ken.C

Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 12:38 PM

Hey guys,

So I've run Audyssey on the new Onk and ended up with some weird stuff. First off, it set my VP100 to 40 Hz crossover. Easy enough to fix, but odd.

Next, there don't seem to be that many Audyssey settings exposed. I can't find any info on the EQ, and it only seems to have 3 modes: Off, Music, and Movie.

With Music, I found that it added quite a lot of reverb, at least when used with DPL2. Anyone else run into this?

With Off, I noticed that the surrounds sounded extremely wrong, particularly on a Sting track from Mercury Falling, where I was hearing a snare drum first from the fronts, then with a very perceptible delay from the side surrounds, or possibly bouncing off the wall behind. I didn't try the track with the Audyssey Music setting or with any other surround modes. My wife gets ... less than amused when I mess with the sound while she's listening to things. wink

Any tips? What am I missing here? In general, it sounds good, but it is definitely odd.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 12:43 PM

This makes me glad I've got a Pioneer with the 1 mic setup. Never had a problem.
Posted by: alan

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 01:21 PM

Hi Ken,

You likely know what I'm going to say: turn off Audyssey!
That reverb effect sounds really gross. I have no idea why that's happening.

Honestly, with wide-range neutral, linear speakers like Axioms, Audyssey will only screw things up. Neither I, nor Ian, nor Andrew (Welker)use it. If you want to play with it, go ahead (when your wife isn't around). If you had crappy speakers with non-linear response, of which there are many, I'd say, sure, Audyssey may help quite a lot. But with Axioms, you just don't need it.

I admit there may be some utility to Audyssey for the bass octaves, but otherwise, it's error-prone, as you've discovered.

Regards,
Alan
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 01:26 PM

Well, here's the thing. I THINK I have Audyssey EQ turned off when it's set to Off, so all that's left is the calibration. Which sounds like it's set the distance on the surrounds all screwy, but the numbers appear to be right. So I'm not sure what might be going on.
Posted by: RickF

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 01:30 PM

Now I'm liking my new(ish) HK3600 even more.

grin
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 01:31 PM

Y'alls so much help.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 01:34 PM

I'd throw that Onkyo in the trash and go buy a Pioneer.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 01:46 PM

Ken, that reverb-effect doesn't sound right. I wonder if a speaker is out-of-phase?
Posted by: avjunkee

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 01:53 PM

I was about to say the same thing. I've never had (or even heard of) Audyssey or MCACC creating any tpye of reverb effect. There are separate "modes" or "effects" settings in the receiver for that; make sure they are all turned off or disabled or set to standard.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 02:02 PM

Ken, have you read the tips and instructions about using Audyssey in AVS forum?
make one mistake in calibration or with the adjustments after calibration and Audyssey does not seem to be a good program.


Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 02:03 PM

Are you talking about the reverb when Audyssey Music is on, or the major delay on the surrounds?

The Audyssey Music reverb is like concert hall reverb--not overly irritating or wrong, but clearly not present in the original recording when I switch it into direct or stereo mode.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 02:04 PM

And to answer the last question, no I haven't read the AVS tips and tricks. That was my next stop.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 02:14 PM

OK, reading the FAQ, and in the "Checking the Results" part, it talks about selecting a target curve. I guess that the Onk uses different names for response curves. Apparently Movie==Audyssey Reference, Music==Flat, and Off==Off.
Posted by: nickbuol

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 02:36 PM

I am loving my setup with Audyssey turned on for movies, but for music, it sounds tobo "artificial" or just plain odd. If I want to fill the room for general listening, I might put it on "all speaker stereo" or whatever, but that is for casual listening only, not for the audiophile of course. That mode is non-audyssey...
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 02:45 PM

"Movie" has a sloping fr, diminishing as you go up in freq.
"Flat" has a flat fr from the lowest to the highest fr.
"Off" puts Audyssey out of line.

you should put some movie or music on and decide which you prefer.
you may have other Audyssey adjustments too, like HT, which cuts a little bit of high fr. because Blu-ray/dvd's are equalized for large halls (cinemas); as those hf don't have to travel far in your ht room, the high fr. might be too strong.

personally i like flat fr, so i use:
Audyssey "flat" and "HT" on.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 03:04 PM

if a speaker is out of phase, Audyssey will tell you during calibration.

another thing; you might find that the bass frequencies are too weak.
Audyssey calibrates the sub for "flat", but as one goes down in frequencies, the ear is less sensitive.
i found that if you increase sub output by 3 db, then the f r will be flat to your ears. this should be adjusted in the Onkyo menu.
a very good test to check this out is playing the ring drop in LOTR;
without the +3dB adjustment for the sub, the sound will be weak and seem to come from quite a distance, instead of nearby as you can see it on the monitor. it will not seem realistic.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 03:07 PM

Yup, didn't get that out-of-phase error.

I don't think I have the other Audyssey adjustments. I should have looked more closely at the manual before buying--there's not a whole lot available, from what I can see. More in the THX realm than Audyssey.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 03:12 PM

i just made un update in my last post...
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By: J. B.
if a speaker is out of phase, Audyssey will tell you during calibration.

Yeah, I was just wondering if there was a mistake. Sometimes Audyssey has shown a speaker to be out of phase when it was wired correctly (nearby reflections throwing it off, maybe.

I just know that an out of phase speaker CAN sound reverberant.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 03:20 PM

Yeah, it made me turn the sub down by 10dB before I started. Whoopsie.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 03:25 PM

My Marantz is great, with all the adjustments needed to get excellent sound; it mates the speakers to the room and vice versa; it does not just set distances and levels.

which reminds me, an excellent test for flat high freq. response is in the movie Master & Commander, when the surgeon puts his instruments on the table before an operation.
Posted by: Wid

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 05:17 PM


I never have liked that program and never will. Set it up manually and it should sound great.
Posted by: SBrown

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Wid

I never have liked that program and never will. Set it up manually and it should sound great.



Same here.
Posted by: nickbuol

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 07:44 PM

And I disagree. I find that my Axioms sound way better with it. Just like all audio, different tastes, different experiences... If you listen more to music, then it seems to mess things up in my mind. I wonder how room configurations, treatments, etc play into the experience.
Posted by: Wid

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 08:24 PM


If it makes music "messed up" what is it doing to movies?
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 09:06 PM

Well, I really wanted Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume, and I'm getting too lazy to set levels and distances myself. So.... Audyssey it was! Just need to tweak it some, if I can figure out how to get this receiver to let me tweak things.
Posted by: SBrown

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 09:25 PM

Doesn't the Menu come up on your TV when you press setup?
Posted by: Gr8_White_North

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 09:45 PM

You will find that audyssey will sound different from one calibration to the other. Make sure you have a dead silent house. No fridges running ,nothing to interupt you.I thought i had timed it perfect, i was on setting 6 and both my kids came home crashin and bangin. Make sure you use a tripod ,and i find that keeping the mic close to the prime seating position is best. I really dont care how good it sound to anyone but me, basically becasue it is after all, its all about me smile. I only use the 3 main seating positions on my couch and i use all 8 calibrations for maximum resolution. BTW audyssey does not set the distances that is done by the amp manufacturer. Audyssey takes care of the room deficiencies and crossover.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 10:42 PM

I used 5 positions, I think, and the house was about as silent as possible. The deep freeze was on, but that's two rooms away. Turned off the fans, moved the clocks into the other room, made sure the fridge had cycled off... dunno. Maybe I'll give it another shot the next time everyone's out of the house but me (rare).

I do get the menu when I press setup, yes.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 10:44 PM

Ken, I'll take a stab at some of this. First, you can't "tweak" the EQ results other than selecting "Music" for a flat treble response or "Movie" for the "Audyssey" treble curve which has about a 2dB/octave roll-off above 4KHz.The calibration results, particularly raising the crossover frequencies, can be changed.

Audyssey doesn't add any reverb. DPLII and similar processing extracts out-of-phase ambience from the front channels and sends it to the surrounds. When Dynamic EQ is on, the relative levels of the surrounds changes with overall volume levels so that the surround effect is more consistent.

I'd suggest the Music setting for most material, and trying Movie for something which seems to be too hot in the treble(not necessarily a movie).
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 10:45 PM

I know it's not SUPPOSED to add reverb, but that's what I'm hearing. And nothing I've seen explains the bizarrely delayed drum hits in the surrounds.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 11:24 PM

Ken, have you tried unplugging everything and just sing to yourself?




I hope you have a good repertoire?
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/17/12 11:55 PM

<Ken>Dooba dooba doot doot doot. Aah! Aah!</Ken>
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 12:20 AM

He just murdered Metallica.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 07:45 AM

Every now and them I run it again on my Denon just out of curiosity. I do my best to let my ears adjust for a few days but I always end up turning it off. I just can't seem to get it to not sound flat and lifeless no matter how I run it or how I tweak it.

I know, not helpful but sometimes it's helpful to know that you are not the only one.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: pmbuko
<Ken>Dooba dooba doot doot doot. Aah! Aah!</Ken>


Now that's what I call an inside joke.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 08:50 AM

It occurs to me that I was sitting in a less than optimal position when I was listening without Audyssey on and got the weird delay thing. Maybe that's just what happens when you're outside the circle of the speakers. Just never heard it before. Will have to try it in a more optimal position.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 09:01 AM

sometimes when it does not seem to work well, it can be as simple a thing as a leather couch (used at the LP) that reflects sound towards the nearby microphone; or a seatback that's higher than the ears at the listening position. those things, and others, can easily fool Audyssey.

also, Audyssey will not work well with an acoustically bad room or it will not make good speakers out of bad ones, or speakers that have not been well positioned.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 09:03 AM

My room is... less than ideal. It's my living room and I've got 3 kids, age 5 and down.

But at least it's not square.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 09:05 AM

::Runs away crying but humming "Dooba dooba doot doot doot. Aah! Aah!"::
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 09:06 AM

How do you hum a "D?"
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 09:07 AM

some hum a v
Posted by: alan

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 09:19 AM

Hey Ken,
As I follow this thread, I keep thinking that you may have inadvertently engaged one of those cheesy-sounding "Hall" modes. Virtually all receivers have them, even your old HK. When I use my old HK, I sometimes push the wrong button and the hall effect pops up. . .

Also, in using Audyssey for setup, ignore any "out-of-phase" alerts for the surrounds. Audyssey can't deal with bipolar/dipolar surround speakers like the QS8s.

Alan
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 09:28 AM

That's what I was thinking, too, Alan, but those effects are all in their own surround modes, independent of DPL2, which is where I've been sticking, at least for now. Well, more experimentation is called for, but my in-laws are in town.
Posted by: nickbuol

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 10:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Wid

If it makes music "messed up" what is it doing to movies?


Makes them sound great. I was reading some other information about it and it seems to me that it was designed more for movies anyway. The marketing doesn't say that, but I too get odd, exaggerated reverb when listening to music with it turned on. Thus the "messed up". Alan describes it pretty much spot on that it sounds like a "hall" or "cave" mode. Even when not selected. I will have to play around with it some more tonight. Maybe it is an Onkyo thing. I've got a new Onkyo 709...

Again, open invite to come and hear what I am hearing.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 12:02 PM

the only times when i thought there was exaggerated reverb is when i tried music with "multi channel stereo" or when standing near one of the surround speakers; so i don't understand what may cause this problem.

if someone would like to hear exaggerated reverb, just come and pick up (for free) my former processor which had "Dolby Surround" and "Hall". it's a Yamaha SR50.
after using it for more than 20 years, i never succeeded in setting it in a way that was remotely satisfactory. it was barely better than my previous setup, which was the "Hafler surround":
http://sound.westhost.com/project18.htm
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 12:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Ken.C
It occurs to me that I was sitting in a less than optimal position when I was listening without Audyssey on and got the weird delay thing.


Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 12:37 PM

There's gotta be an easier way to cover your ears from that reverberant sound.
Posted by: alan

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 01:20 PM

Hilarious!
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 01:29 PM

I just noticed the pink socks. Now I can't stop giggling.
Posted by: exlabdriver

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 02:05 PM

I've had very good results from Audyssey on my Denon AVR-891 that set up my two M22s that are perched on their own Velo 10" subs, a Sony Center Speaker & two QS4 surrounds. I find that the sound in my oddly shaped room is most satisfying.

Audyssey found that my subs were set at way too high volume levels that I corrected by turning them down by almost in half. Furthermore, it found that the QS4s were indeed 'out of phase' because of my dyslexia in reading wall mount Axiom's instructions, ha!! After these corrections, all is well.

Audyssey works very nicely for both HT & audio in my room. Overall, I really like it...

TAM
Posted by: CV

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: pmbuko


It looks like someone pulled something out of a cartoon and into reality.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Ken.C
Off==Off.



Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By: CV
Originally Posted By: pmbuko


It looks like someone pulled something out of a cartoon and into reality.

Actually, Charles, this guy just had his wisdom teeth out and can't stand the indescribable pain that comes afterwards...
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/18/12 09:44 PM

Ken, regardless of what you're hearing, Audyssey has no capacity to add reverb. Even DPLII and the other ambience extraction modes(e.g., Neo:6, Logic 7)don't "add" reverb, but just send what's already mixed into the front channels to the surrounds. Keep experimenting, you'll get it.

One point I'll mention is that the microphone positions aren't supposed to be spread around the room, but are to be clustered around the listening position. Mine are 1-2' apart.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/23/12 06:13 AM

Now I'm sure I did something wrong. I was watching racing and noticed that the engine noise was extraordinarily loud. Figured it had something to do with Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ, and lo and behold it did. I turned off the Movie calibration, too, for the heck of it, and all of the sudden, the commentators voices sounded much fuller, and the engine noise was less overpowering. Audyssey on, thin voices. Dynamic Volume on, loud engines. Any of it on, the volume level went way up.

Ah well, will try again one of these days when there's no one around.
Posted by: nickbuol

Re: Audyssey weirdness - 05/23/12 08:47 AM

I messed around with mine last night using the same cd I did the other day when I experienced a surround channel reverb effect.

What I noticed:
1) It WAS in a movie mode.
2) The track that I noticed the "reverb" in was a remix that had some "echo" effect in the stereo mix.

Take a 2 channel recording, add a dash of movie mode, and a pinch (or two) of a simulated 7.1 playback, bake for 5 minutes, and you get some strange echo.

I played the track in 2.1 mode and it sounded great.