So I just made the leap and bought the AV equipment for my new home theater. We are finishing our basement and my wife, bless her heart has let me build an entertainment room. I did not have an unlimited budget so I had to make some choices along the way. In the end, this is what I ended up with, I'd like to hear what you think. I am now in the waiting mode, and am very excited about the whole project. Any feedback would be great, and of course simply talking to others about this is great fun in and of itself.

Display: Samsung PN64D8000 64-Inch
A/V Receiver: Denon 4311CI
Blue Ray: PS3
Front Center: Axiom In-Cabinet VP180
Front Left & Right: Axiom In-Cabinet M80 v3
Sub-woofer: Axiom In-Cabinet EP500 v3
Surrounds & Rears: Yamaha NS-IW480CWH 8" In-Ceiling Speaker

The room is about 24'x17'x7.5', the layout is below:

First off, welcome!

While I am not sure about having the side "surrounds" in front of the listening area, or that you will gain much with a 7.1 vs 5.1 setup for a space relatively only 16 feet deep, I think that you are off to a good start and the basement will be a great place to entertain.

Did you already purchase the Yamaha in ceiling speakers? With direct radiating speakers like that, mounted above and in the case of the "side surrounds," in front of the listening area, I think that the surround effects in movies will not be what you would hope for. After all, in 5.1 and 7.1 setups, the layout is designed by the mixing studios to have speakers pointed from the sides/back of the listening area, not overhead. If you already have them and can't return them, then you might do better to have a pair mounted in the wall to the rear of the seating area instead of the ceiling. Then mount the two "overhead" ones shown in front of the listening space, more off to the sides and back at least in line with the main viewing seats. That would help to give the sense of a real surround installation using in-ceiling speakers than just mounting overhead.

Again, I think that you are off to a great start by just having a plan of action. I will see if I can dig up a speaker location document. I know that there is an article here about it.

Welcome again and please take my comments as just someone excited to try to help.

Found the link...
Home Theater Layout

Here is one of the diagrams showing the side surrounds to the direct side or slightly rear of the listening area, not in front. These diagrams are not Axiom made, but come from Dolby themselves. DTS and THX recommend the same.

wow, you immediately keyed right in on the biggest compromise i had to make, good eye! Yes, the surround speakers were somewhat of a quandary for me, because there is no "left wall" (instead there is a bar) i couldn't figure out how to make wall speakers work for the room. Once I decided to go with ceiling speakers the second problem I had is that the ceiling just left of the where i have placed the left surround drops about a foot in elevation. I would have preferred to space them farther to the left and the right (which i could do with the right) but because of the ceiling drop they are a bit closer to center than I would have liked. I'm just hoping that they will still sound good even if not perfect. That's one of the reason I didn't spend a ton of money on the surrounds. In a perfect world i would have gotten the Axiom surrounds, wish I had that left wall

I've seen installations with QS4s and QS8s hanging on brackets from the ceiling when there were no side walls available. I've also seen an install with at least 1 QS mounted on to a soffit around ductwork. Just some options. The QS speakers are REALLY fogiving on their installation due to their advanced design.

With all of that said, be sure that you post lots of pictures of the progress. We LOVE pictures...

Have you thought about Dual sub's?


That is a pretty damn big room.......

Actually, I have the closet on the right wired for a second sub. I don't have the cash right now to get another EP500 so I'll either start with the one for now, or I may hook up my old entry level Polk PSW10 as a second sub. I was kinda wondering if pairing the substantially lower end Polk with the EP500 would sound worse than the EP500 alone. What do you think?

Perhaps you already know this, but you should never assume where to put the sub(s) in the room. I originally put mine in the center spot in front, but after doing the "sub crawl", it was determined that the best place for the sub was just a bit forward of the left or right seating position. That's where I got the fewest nulls through-out the room.

Yes, I have read that allot. I'm taking a bit of a gamble, because having it built into the wall does require me pick a spot and stick wit it. I hope it sounds ok, even if its not perfect.

I was running an inexpensive 8" JBL sub with my Axiom sub. I think with a large sub like the 500, a sub of a much lesser quality will not have much of an overal impact.. At least this is my experience the JBL made almost no audible... I would tell you, use the Polk for now, It's already bought and paid for :), that's what i did until i bought my second Axiom sub. When you get everything up and running you can make the decision if you think the Polk will be sufficient, or if it would be worth it to you to get a second 500... I think Dual 500's will have more output than the 500/Polk set up, especially if the Polk is a small sub.

From my experience when running two subs placement becomes less of an issue.

I put my subs where i wanted them,and i think my room sounds pretty darn good, with the power and extension of a pair of subs like the 500's i believe you will be able to do the same, with a similar result.

Good luck in your endeavor.

P.S.
You may want to watch this video on multiple subs, you may recognize some of the people in it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayOXz26qm3I

Niv, welcome. As Nick and you yourself point out, the in-ceiling "surround" speakers are far from ideal, firing almost straight down at you as shown in the diagram. As was mentioned, several of our members who didn't have wall space or want to use stands, use brackets to suspend QSs a short distance below the ceiling.

Apparently you already have the ceiling speakers, and if they're going to be used the first point is that the side surrounds should be farther back and spread as widely as possible(even if the ceiling makes them uneven in height), so as to give a little more side rather than overhead effect.

The back surrounds may be of very little benefit if placed as shown(and if Nick's suggestion of mounting them on the wall behind can't be used). You might consider instead using them as front "height" speakers which the 4311 provides for, above the main speakers. In that case the side surrounds could be mounted a couple feet farther back than the couch, in the absence of the back surrounds.

Ok, you guys have really got me thinking about the surrounds. As much as i like the clean look of in ceiling I'm starting to worry about the quality of the sound. I've been thinking about how I could do a pair of QS and have some questions:

Imagine drawing a line, top to bottom on the layout just forward of the fridge, I'm thinking of mounting a pair of QS here, one on each wall. The left QS would actually be in the bar and farther off center than the other one. What do you think of this layout?

Also, I'm thinking a QS4 would stand out less than the QS8, do you think it would be enough?

FYI - although I have already purchased the Yamaha's, I have not yet cut the holes in the ceiling which I suppose is even more important.

I'm curious about the in-cab M80s. Do you have enough space in the wall for them? They're quite deep!

I'd use QS8s, myself. They're not THAT much larger than 4s and really aren't that noticeable if you ever get around to actually doing the wiring properly, which I will one of these days.

Yes, they are very deep (and heavy)! I'm lucky that I had the dimensions in mind when I built the wall. I actually have about 6" to spare beyond the 18" they require.

Ok, I'm seriously thinking about ditching the in-ceiling left and right surrounds and getting a pair of QS8's mounted on the walls. I'll keep the two Yamaha's for the back surrounds. I could possibly build two weather proof cases for the two unused Yamaha's and put them out on the patio for a second zone. The wife is going to flip when she sees the charge, I'll have to say that the outdoor speakers were a little more expensive than I thought Here is the revised layout, any comments? I'm really glad you guys got me focusing more on the quality of the sound vs the look of in-ceiling speaks, thanks!

Nickboul, you asked for some pics so I took a few snaps and photoshopped them to give you better idea of what the room looks like. Here you go:

Pic #1:


Pic #2:


Pic #3:


Pic #4:

Niv, If i was you, i would hang the SL speaker off of the ceiling just infront of the bar off of the soffet maybe, the soffet appears to be about a 2ft drop from the ceiling? The current position that you have the SL, it appears to be 2X the distance from the sitting area as the SR. While this can be compensated for by increasing the level of the SL, i have a feeling with the open space involved, the end result will not be as good as it could be if the speaker was physically closer to the listening area, so try to get the SL/SR both approximately the same distance from the listener.

Actually, if i were you. I would just go with a 5.1 setup as Nick eluded to.. Use QS8's as the rear speakers, and not use the RL/RR option at all.

Other's my disagree with the 5.1 option, but i don't think that there is enough space in this room to fully take advantage of the 7.1 option, and as you stated you want to efficiently use your cash. The 5.1 option would allow you to use the yamaha's on the patio.



This is just my opinion though...

Thanks for the pictures. I still stick with the 5.1 is plenty for the space, but if you "must have" 7.1, then as I mentioned and Dak stated too, put the one on the soffit instead of in the bar area. You would need to crank the volume up and work with the large delay due to distance and amount of air volume that the sound would need to travel through to get to the listening area.

Then again, using a pair of QS8s and ditching the in-ceiling speakers and going with a 5.1 setup will really do a lot better than a questionable 7.1 setup.

I have been wanting 7.1 for a long time, but have been totally happy with my 5.1 setup for years. In my current setup, I went 7.1, but only because I have 2 rows of seats. Even movies encoded in 7.1 (which aren't many) aren't *that* much different sounding than a 5.1 setup.

Ok, you guys are starting to sway me towards 5.1, i guess i would replace the rear in-ceiling speaks with a pair of QS8's hanging on ceiling brackets. I have the wires for the rears already in the ceiling, i had planned on accessing them when I cut the 8" holes for the speakers. If I hang the QS8's on ceiling brackets, I would not be cutting those holes, any ideas on how I would go about getting to the wires?

Another question on 7.1 vs 5.1 if i set up a 7.1 system and am playing 5.1 content, are the sides completely dead? If so, I think I would be wasting the QS8's if 80% of my content is going only to the back yahama's.

If I kept the 7.1 setup I don't think hanging the SL from the soffit is an option, it would be to much in the way of everything. I am still considering the QS8 on the bar wall with some adjustment, i know its not optimal but I would hope that it wouldn't be a deal breaker. That soffit is really breaking my balls.

I don't have anything constructive to add, but I'm jealous of what that room is going to be. Looks like it will be a lot of fun!

Thanks CV. I've been waiting 20 years for this room

if you do something like this for your speaker wires, you will be cutting a hole about 2X4", this should give you enough room to fish the speaker wires with a coat hanger or what ever else you have around to fish the wires.






Hope this helps.

Ahh, OK, I can see how I'd do that. Thanks for the pic.

Lets take one more look at the 7.1 system, I had some flaws on my previous drawing. The couch I had drawn was a place holder, it wasn't the real size and not in the true position. I have replaced the couch with the actual furniture that will be down there, and I found out the true center between the QS8's is actually the left side of the couch. True, it is not the exact middle if the couch, but it is not that far off. I'm thinking this layout would work, what do you think?

Even if it's not ideal, I think you'll find it plenty satisfying.

You would have to make sure that your system can delay all of the channels the right amount to keep them in sync with the SL since it is further away, and then make sure that the audio is in sync with the video. I would think that any near-current model receiver would be able to handle this OK. I just think that trying to force a 7.1 system into the space will involve a number of compromises vs. a properly setup 5.1 setup.

As for the channel deal, I find that it isn't the "side surrounds" that are dropped out when playing 5.1 on a 7.1 setup, but in fact it is the "rear surrounds" that are cut from the mix. That is because the key difference between 5.1 and 7.1 in a proper setup is the adding of the 2 rear/back channels, not the addition of the "side" surrounds. Those "side" surrounds are really the surround channels in a 5.1 config.

Of course, your receiver should be able to simulate the 2 additional rear channels when playing 5.1 audio in a 7.1 setup.

As for fishing the wires, I managed to (not without some work) fish my surround channel wiring through 1/2" holes I drilled into my walls. I had 2 layers of 5/8" drywall, GreenGlue, vapor barrier, and insulation fighting me, but it can be done with a metal hook made out of a coat hanger and a little patience.

If you mount the QSs 2-3' above ear level on the walls and a couple feet behind your ears(farther back than you show)they should work well. The 4311 will calibrate for level and delay differences caused by the different separations of the QSs.

As previously mentioned,those ceiling back speakers aren't likely to be of significant benefit with the QSs placed as suggested. Forget them there, and again, consider using them as front "heights" above the main speakers.

Niveka,

I have pretty much the same set up as you. I wish I had some pictures. Here are some comments, many of which have been touched upon. I have ep500, 180, 80's, which are all in cabinent plus a pair of qs-8's and some in cealing speakercraft Aim7-3.

1. Make sure you get the angles right for the from left and right to the main listening areas. You can't toe in the speakers if you build they box spuare. If music listening is big then you really need to focus on this.

2. You can see some of the other posts I've had but I am neutral on the in cabinent EP500. It is fine. I got it b/c of my wife. It has a separate amp so plan for it space wise. I wish I had at least tried stand alone EP500 to see if the sound quality is being affected by being in a mahgonany entertainment unit. I wanted dual subs but for cost reason I went with one. I am actually thinking of adding an external HSU VTF3 v2 i have sitting doing nothing. My room is 17* 14 * 9 but I also have an open side so the entire area is 17*40*9.
Bottom line is I wish I had done the dual subs however the current in-cab ep500 is fine. It is not a dedicated theatre room so I can live with it.

3. The vp180 is fantastic. I recommend installing it so it sits at ear level. This might make your tv a bit higher than you want. Either way I think you will love this speaker - I do.

4. I have a 7.1 but run 5.1 for the most part. My in ceiling sides are slightly forward of the sitting area due to an air conditioning duct. I have the Q8's on the back wall. They are great speakers also. I don't really hear a big difference. So because I have a zone 2 but no zone 2 amp (I have a pioneer elite VSX-94tx) I use the pioneer for zone 2.

I love the receiver you have. I have been thinking of getting one for my master bedroom where I have a vp150/m22 set up. One day perhaps.

Ok, so we had about 3 weeks with no progress due to things getting in the way. It's been a while since I posted an update so I figured I better get on the stick The QS8's arrived today. The rest of the speakers were delayed because one of the M80's did not pass QA. I'm glad they are making sure everything is tip top before sending them to me. I also made some progress with the basement, the stairs and the cabinets are in place, here are some pics:

Exciting progress! Thanks for the pics! It may be a little late to comment, but our side surrounds are in front of us at our house and they sound great when sound is panning around. Like others said, the QS8s are really forgiving of placement.

Did you get your In-Cabinets painted at the factory or what are you doing color-wise? Great fun following this!

I hope you never want a TV that's bigger than that hole.

Hi Amy, we left the trim in the in-cabinet speakers unpainted, I plan on staining them with the same stain I'll use on the bar. My QS8's are right about in-line with the seating positions possibly slightly behind by about 6". Glad to hear you like your QS8's!

I bet that will look sharp. What a great project!

ha, yeah, i guess i'm committed to that. I pretty sure the 63" plasma will be enough for me anything bigger would require a different room

Next week will be a big week. Electrical will be finished on Monday, tile goes in on Wednesday, and the bar should be done by the end of the week. We will be out of town at a wedding all week, when we get back it will look much different than it does now!

Must be fun and exciting times! When I bought my speakers I had to leave them in the boxes for about 4 months until my room was done and they were ready to be installed. I am sure you will be thrilled.

My personal experiences with 5.1 and 7.1 are that the 7.1 mixes aren't a big deal but if you have a big room it's just nice to have more surround speakers to fill in the space. I just have the AVR use DPIIx or NEO6 convert the 5.1 to 7.1 for me.

Here is an early diagram for my HT that I just completed. I ended up putting QS8s on the side surrounds and QS4's in the rear. Because of how far apart the side surrounds are I'm glad I did it. Now that said I've had smaller HT rooms and I believe the two extra speakers in back don't add much there.

Here are a few more images with the cabinets painted and the floor about halfway complete:

So I unboxed all the the speakers today (except for the sub, it hasn't arrived yet). I set the 4311 up on my wife's desk, tuned in a local classical station and tested each speaker individually and in pairs. Somewhere along the line the effort transitioned from "testing" to simple, wonderful, beautiful, satisfaction. My mother-in-law came down from upstairs and said "it's so beautiful!" looking at me as if I had just painted a masterpiece. I'm pretty sure shes never heard music over a system like this before. I've cleaned everything up, tucked the mains and the surrounds out of the way, stashed the boxes upstairs in the guest room, however I have left the center channel out because I am enjoying the music so much. I don't think its that much in the way, maybe it can stay out until the room is ready for it...

I have to admit, I looked at that picture and thought: What speaker manufacturer is THAT?!

Very nice, and welcome to the club.

Win! Right there! Beauty! Joy! YES.

Niveka, I do hope you and your family will enjoy your new system for many years to come.

Can you comment (or provide pictures?) about the exterior quality of the in-cabinet VP180? I know that is a strange request considering it's intended use, but I have considered getting one and using it "out in the open" so that I can set my current (RP) TV on top of it. I can't do this with the regular VP180 because of its slanted cabinet. It appears that the exterior of the cabinet is a pretty decent black laminate. How does it look with the grill on? How is the construction detail of the mounting flange?

Thank you again for the excellent story.

I have the in-cabinet VP160 and I would think the outside cabinets would be similar. But, maybe not. Mine looks like a thin plywood painted black, that scuffs up as I slide it in and out of the hole I made for it.

The black casing is very tight and "finished" for and unfinished case, no seams. The wood trim is unfinished, I will stain it to match the bar, you can get it unfinished or painted as I'm sure you know. The trim is solid, sanded very smooth, and should take a nice stain. There are rubber pads on the bottom to provide good vibration free contact with whatever surface you are setting it on. I have a white grill on it right now, this was a mistake, Axiom is sending black ones along with the subwoofer. Here's a few pictures:

VERY helpful! Thank you so much, Niveka! I really appreciate you taking the time and trouble to provide those pictures.

As promised, here are a few finished pics:





It was a long haul, took 5 months due to many factors. In the end I'm thrilled, I will never sell this house Enjoy!

Beautiful room! I love the bar area!

Hope you enjoy many happy hours there!

It's funny, there was a period of about a month where the bar was finished and we had all the speakers set up but there were no couches or television. We spent many nights sipping cocktails till 2:00am listening to music. We both commented on how funny it was that we kept doing that, it had been years since we stayed up that late, and years since we spent the night listening to music and talking instead of watching TV.

Here are a couple of thoughts/reviews now that the project is done:
1) The Panasonic P65VT50 is an incredible TV. When I'm watching a show I keep thinking to myself, "Unbelievable!". I wouldn't want anything bigger for that room, it's perfect. At the beginning I was thinking I would go with a projector, I am so glad I didn't. What changed my mind was the answer to one question I asked everyone I knew that had a projector: "Do you use it as your primary entertainment center or do you just watch movies on it?" they all replied that they did not use the projector all the time, just for things like movie night.

2) All the Axiom speakers with the exception of the EP500 are incredible. I love the sound produced for both movies, normal television, and music. I believe 100% that I chose the best speakers for my budget and room. I am a satisfied customer. On a side note, I added the QS8's a few weeks after everything else, I was really surprised at how much depth they added to just about everything we watch on TV. I'm really glad I got them.

3) I've had two problems with the EP500, both could have been deal breakers, the jury is currently out on these. I will say that Axiom support has been excellent, they have done everything I have asked of them. From the beginning I started noticing that at times the sub would just stop producing sound. This would happen randomly and was extremely frustrating. I was about to send it back when I decided to take the top off the amp and see if I could spot the problem. I eventually found a poorly made wire connection. Axiom sent me a new one and I replaced it right before installing everything into the entertainment center. You can imagine how frustrated I was when one night it happened again, this time with everything installed and tucked away, I guess the wire wasn't the culprit after all. So last week, at about 10:00 at night I decided that I was going to bit the bullet and rip it out of the stack and send it back to axiom, I was very disappointed. I kept thinking about my $200 Polk that I hooked up as my second sub, it never complained about anything, just quietly did its job with no fuss (well maybe not quietly). So now I had the amp pulled out of the stack, on the floor, and rather than box it up I decide to take the top off again and see if I can spot something else. After a while I realize that if I wiggle the main control board the sound cuts in and out. So I tighten everything up as best I can and at this point am hoping that the problem is fixed. I wrap everything up and re-install it back into the stack. The second problem I have with the EP500 is that when I turn the amp volume any higher that 40% I get a constant hum out of the sub. I have fixed this by upping the signal input by 12db so that leaving the amp at 30% still provides enough sound. I will say that when the EP500 is working, without a hum, it does sound great.

4) The Denon 4311 is awesome, I love it. The Audisy setup makes a big difference in the overall sound. I love having the second zone for outside. Its not overly complicated, I figured most of it out just by playing, I occasionally go to the manual for something specific.

5) I'm glad I have the two back (7.1) speakers, but they haven't really shown their worth yet. I guess not much stuff is recorded in 7.1, for the most part I don't hear much coming from them.

6) The Harmony remote is well worth the money. I cant believe I spent over $100 on a remote, but after having it, I understand why it is worth the price of admission.

That's about it for my critique, If you have any specific questions, or advice on my EP500 problems, feel free to ask.

Looks great!

Niv, it's unfortunate that there appears to be a defect in the circuitry of your EP500, but Axiom will continue to work with you to correct it.

As to the amount of sound from the back surrounds, yes very little 7.1 material with discrete back surround content is available, but when using DPLIIx mode all 2-channel and 5.1 channel material sends sound to the back speakers. This may be relatively subtle, but switching the back surrounds off demonstrates that there is a difference.

I would think the EP500 would be good enough to just work with Axiom on a fix for it. Once it's fixed, it should be smooth sailing.

Room looks great!

Looks great.

It sounds to me like you may have fixed your sub problem are now left with a very common issue of ground loop hum. Does the sub make the hum when ther are no input cables connected? If it does then you definitely have an amp issue, if it is silent then you need to figure out where the ground loop is coming from or install an isolator.

Go to Dolby's Website or goggle 7.1 Movies and you can see all the new movies that are being released on 7.1 you will enjoy them. One of my favorite is Transformers Dark of the Moon in 7.1 True HD. But you are right most are in 5.1. Not sure what kind of receiver you have but my Pioneer SC-27 has a audio decoding that will turn 5.1 or 6.1 into 7.1. Check that out on yours.

Go to Dolby's Website or goggle 7.1 Movies and you can see all the new movies that are being released on 7.1 you will enjoy them. One of my favorite is Transformers Dark of the Moon in 7.1 True HD. But you are right most are in 5.1. Not sure what kind of receiver you have but my Pioneer SC-27 has a audio decoding that will turn 5.1 or 6.1 into 7.1. Check that out on yours.

Pretty much any receiver that is capable of 7.1 output will upconvert 5.1 to match your speaker configuration.