Finally had time to sit down and enjoy my home theatre (by the way, go front projection if at all possible), but I had a problem with the audio setup.
I tuned by ear using the pink noise to get all the channels outputting the same volume. During movies though, the dialog was just way too quiet. More notably on quite scenes. I would have to turn the volume up 5-10% to hear the dialog, but when an action scene would come on, it was WAY too loud.
I turned the center channel all the way up on my receiver. It helped some, but I am still not satisfied. Should I start turning down the other 4.1 channels? (they are all pretty close to "zero" on my receivers settings)
Here is the setup:
M22ti's
VP150
QS8's
Pioneer Elite VSX 43tx receiver.
Listening position is about 9 ft from the center, 10 ft from the fronts, 7 ft from the surrounds.
Any advice is appreciated!
(1) By all means, go get the RadioShack SPL meter and re-calibrate your system. Or, upgrade to auto-MCACC or YPAO.
Even in the latter case, still go get the RS meter, though!
(2) As webbb previously suggested, double-check that all speakers are hooked up in phase.
(3) Double-check the channel distance/delay settings on the receiver.
Were you by chance watching The Matrix?
That movie has BY FAR the worst center channel dialog levels I have ever seen in a DVD. Ok, done with my quick vent
Actually, it was Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Rings.
And you guessed, tonight, in The Theatre Del Twopecker, Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers!
Maybe it was jsut that movie, we'll see.
Sushi:
I really dont care to spend $40 on an spl meter....I will probably have to end up doing so though. Its odd though, because the pink noise is VERY noticably louder on the center channel.
twopecker,
At least on my system, LOTR:FOTR has very clear dialogs. In fact, I would say it is one of the best in all aspects of the soundtrack quality.
I learned one simple thing from the SPL meter: My ears are damn inaccurate!
Just got back from radioshack...with an analog spl meter =)
Didnt figure it was worth an extra $15 for using it so infrequently and for something like this, so I skipped on the digital.
I verified that all the speaker distances were correct on the receiver and the polarity is correct on all speakers. I set everything up w/ the pink noise on the receiver. Is it worth the time to get my video essentials DVD out and set it up via that?
A couple more hours, and it will be time for the two towers!
...I hope it sounds $35 better!
In reply to:
...I hope it sounds $35 better!
LOL I surely hope so, too. Let us know, after the Two Towers.
Actually, the analog meter is the one most people seem to prefer. I myself like the digital one, but it is ONLY because of its peak-hold feature, which you don't need for doing usual calibrations.
So I tuned my system with the pink noise on the receiver, thought I was right on. I pulled out my Video Essentials DVD...I was way off. The rears were turned down WAY too low by this test DVD. I calibrated by the SPL meter, but after hearing it with the test tone, I turned it down a notch. It may have been correct, but too much there for my liking.
Also, the test DVD said to calibrate to 75dB. To get to this level, I had to turn the receiver to 35 on a 0 (loudest) to 90 (quietest) scale. That seems like an awfully high volume level to have to go to.
Once again, the two towers awaits!
The SPL helped me a lot. My ear were definitely off.
Another cheap method since your a computer enthusiast like me is get a laptop or a desktop with a mic into the same room as your listening area. Download any shareware music editor with music level meter (lots of tucows.com such as Cooledit2000) and play your pink noise and watch the level of the digital sound meter. That "could" possibly give you the same results as the SPL.
Sushi,
I have noticed the center channel seeming quiet on the 45TX but after reading this post and thinking back, I too realize it is only with certain films and not consistently.
Mark
Let me start out by saying: God I love home theater!
Actually getting an SPL meter and calibrating to 75dB made a HUGE different in the overall sound. I was VERY impressed....except the dialogue. It just seemed like it was lacking in the quiet scenes. I found myself turning the volume up and down during the movie. During a quiet, dialog only scene, I would have to turn it up a notch or two. But if an action scene followed, I would have to turn it down or get blown out of the water.
Hey twopecker, why don't you try playing these movies with the center channel a couple decibles "hot" and see if you prefer things that way.
Or, you could try using the "normal" setting instead of "max" for the dynamic range...
twopecker,
At what volume level do you watch? I mean, once you calibrate the channels exactly as instructed by the receiver's manual, the "dB" numbers on the main volume knob (if the numbers are in dB scale) should correspond to +/- dB from the Dolby/THX "reference" level. Do you watch at -20dB, -10dB, or what?
Also, just in case, put your ears to each of the drivers on your VP150 to make sure all drivers are working. One disconnected tweeter would fully explain your symptom.
Cam: Huh? care to elaborate anymore?
Sushi: I believe you are very familiar with the Pioneer Elite line (I see you pushing them all the time =)), but just in case you're not, or mine is different, here is a little info so maybe you can help me out a bit.
The volume goes from I believe 0 at maximum volume (never turned it all the way up that loud) to in the 90's as the quietest (I am at work right now, so I cant just go turn the knob and see)
When watching movies, the level is somewhere between 45-55 (depending on the movie and what kind of mood im in), but usualy right at 50. I dont see anywhere it listed as -20dB -10dB, etc.
hopefully tomorrow morning I can play around with the setup a little, switch the center channel over to the left channel amp output, see what I get for sound and also do some up close listening to the center.
Thanks for you help, any other ideas or suggestions will definitely be appreciated!
twopecker,
LOL Somehow did my brain manage to completely forget that you are using the Elite 43TX receiver!!!
Yes, the volume knob on the Elite receivers is in fact based on the dB scale. When you get the receiver into the NORMAL calibration mode, the volume knob automatically resets itself to 0dB, and the receiver sequentially sends a reference pink noise to each channel. You set the channel levels (as you said you did) so that the reference tone reads at 75dB (C-curve) at the listening position. The test tone should feel fairly loud but well tolerable, did it?
Once you do this, the numbers on the volume display represent a literal dB deviation from the Dolby reference level. If the 43TX is just like my 45TX, it should go from -90dB all the way up to +12dB.
Now, did you say you usually watch movies with volume knob set at around -50dB??? My friend, that's an awfully low listening volume indeed! Movie dialogs are usually recorded at around 74dBA when you watch at the reference level (0dB). So, the volume knob set at -50dB, you are listening to dialogs at a flee loudness of 24dBA -- much softer than the most intimate whispers! No wonder you cannot hear it very clearly.
For your reference (pun intended), when we seriously watch a movie, we set the volume between -10dB and -5dB depending on the program. Now, this is VERY loud, but we like it loud anyway. Even when we watch in the middle of night, we set it at -20 to -25 dB or so, -30dB minimum.
Sushi: NOW i am officially confused =)
I am not sure at what dB it is set at while watching movies. The volume knob...however that translates to dB...is set at 50 on a scale of 90 being loudest, 0 being softest.
Now this MORE than loud enough for action scenes. Scarily loud at times. On dialog only scenes, it just seems suppressed. Now of course I know it is something I am doing....just havent narrowed down what.
I tuned via the Video Essentials DVD. The pink noise did seem adequately loud going through the 5.1 setup, but as you said, was very tolerable.
I went home, put the pink noise on, both tweeters definitely were working, so I would say that rules out that. Of course I forgot to check the volume levels on the receiver (d'oh!), but I am assuming it is on a scale of +12 to -90 like yours.
Now I know if I have my receiver turned up to -25dB, it will be ungodly loud during most of the movie. I guess I am just stuck straining to listen during those "quiet scenes". I am in an apt, so I can not turn it up to I guess what you say is adequate levels.
So is life I guess =/
Now, *I* am the one who is officially confused!
Whenever you have a chance, could you confirm that your receiver display looks exactly like the diagram on page 27 of the user manual (yes, I downloaded the 43TX manual to solve this mystery!), and that the volume-level display actually go from -80 (not -90 sorry) to +12? -- you can check this with the source turned off.
Also, with the volume set at your "usual" comfortable level, could you tell me the actual average SPL levels of tyical movie dialogs (use C curve)? Select a scene where nothing much else is going on except for the dialogs. Just measure it uning your RS meter at the listening position. Incidentally, you should always use the RS meter with its mic pointing straight up toward the ceiling.
I will check the volume range tonight when I get home, just forgot over lunch.
Wont be able to check the dB reading during a movie until Tuesday now. After hearing how much better my setup sound, a coworker had to borrow it to try to adjust his a little.
As for the positioning of the SPL meter, the instructions in the video I had said to point the mic end slighly forward towards the viewing area. I will try with the meter pointed straight up hopefully on Wed.
Thanks again!
...and now I feel bad Sushi. I just looked at page 27 of the tsx43 manual...didnt have to though, right when I saw it I knew that wasnt the receiver I have.
I have a tsx-41 (yes, I looked up the manual for that as not to lead you on another goose chase). I was at work when I typed the original message (I think I work too much), and got my numbers mixed up. Sorry for leading you down the wrong path, and thanks for all your help.
Ah... Okay, one mystery solved.
In that case, assuming that you are listening/watching at "commonsense" volume levels, I would check the speaker placement next. How exactly are the front L/C/R speakers placed relative to the front and side walls? Is the VP150 sitting on top of the TV? What's the height? Is it tilted down or up so that the tweeters fire right toward you?
Sushi...once again, sorry about the receiver...my blunder =/
here is a pretty good picture that will give you an idea of the speaker setup:
http://members.cox.net/axiomaudio/ht/HT2.jpg
The front right speaker is about 16" from the side wall, about 22" from the back wall. The front left speaker is about 22"back of the a from the back wall, and the side wall is about 4ft away. The center speaker is dead center between the 2 fronts and approximately 4" behind (maybe not even that much, once again I am at work (d'oh!) so I cant get out the tape measure.
the height at the top of the speaker is about 35.5". I tilted it up just a tiny bit, it made no noticable difference. It looks like its pretty straight on w/ my listening posistion, so I do not think that angle is an issue.
Volume knob adjusts from -4dB to -94dB if that is still good info for you to know.
Nice
front projection setup, twopecker!
Hmm... I don't see anything overtly wrong in the picture and your descriptions, except that the L/R mains appear to be fairly close to each other. Given that you are 10' away from the fronts, the ideal distance between the L/R would be 8'~10'. And if you can, try moving the M22's further forward, so that the L/C/R are all equidistance from you (and accordingly change the delay settings on the receiver). These maneuvers may further improve the front soundstage and dialog clarity.
Coming back to the volume level issue, when you say you calibrated the system to 75dB at the listening position, what level did you set the master volume knob? (I ask this because the 41TX doesn't seem to automatically reset it at 0dB.)
JohnK's suggestion of temporarily swapping the VP150 and one of the M22's to see if it improves the dialog clarity is a good idea, too. In fact, since you use front projection, you can get another M22/stand as the center channel (move the electronics rack somewhere else in that case).
I tried playing w/ the positioning quite a bit when I first set everything up. Due to space constraints, it is setup about as close as I could get every speaker so its equidistant from the listening spot.
To calibrate the speakers to 75dB, I used the Video Essentials DVD. I had to turn the volume to -25dB to get a good baseline, and did the fine tuning from there.
Once again, due to space, I am unable to move the rack from its current spot. The price I have to pay for being an apt. dweller I guess. I was already planning on switching out the center and one of the fronts to see what kind of results I would get. I will probably wait until wed. when I can have my SPL meter in front of me again though.
if you want the dialog louder without making the rest of the movie too loud i think the best option is using dynamic compression (what cam suggested). your receiver might call it "midnight mode" or compression or something. it will make the quiet parts louder and the louder parts quieter. that way you dont have to turn it up as loud to hear the dialog. of course it wont be as dynamic, so the loud parts won't knock your socks off like they otherwise might
if your receiver doesnt have the option, your dvd player might have it in the setup menu.
Yup, I was about to clarify but foof beat me to it. I used to turn down the dynamic range when I lived in an apartment and it could be a good solution for you if you're not crazy about the huge volume changes that dvd's are capable of.
Just a quick note. My brother was noticing the same phenomena as you. He ended up having his hearing checked and discovered that he had developed a loss in the frequency range exactly corresponding to the vocal range. As it was slight, no need for an aid, he simply adjusted the volume to make up for his loss.
One thing that is almost never mentioned in guides to set up home audio, is our personal sensitivity to frequency ranges. The whole point of home A/V is to create a pleasurable experience. If you are happier with the level of the center speaker higher, then go for it. There are so many variables involved in setting to reference levels that I wonder if we shouldn't look at the process almost as a good cook looks at a recipe. Start with the basics, but feel free to make adjustments based on personal taste.
you wrote
And you guessed, tonight, in The Theatre Del Twopecker, Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers!
Maybe it was jsut that movie, we'll see.
I have to agree with this. I watched LOTR (Two Towers) last night and I too found the center channel horrible (inaudible dialogues). At 60% volume on the receiver knob I could barely hear anything. Usually I dont go past 30-35% on the volume level for movies.
There is so much irregularity in the audio seperation of the channels on this DVD. After quiet dialogues, all of sudden it would blast off when there was a musical score in the background or some action scene (and I had to scramble for the remote).
I got so tired of going back and forth that I stopped the movie (I have seen it at the cinema when it was released) and put on 'The Perfect Storm' which has greater center channel usage and I didn't have to hold the remote control of the receiver throughout the movie.
I dont think it is your ears or your setup. Has anybody else had a good experience when it comes to clarity in dialogs (centre channel) when watching LOTR (Two Towers) ?
Cheers / Mahesh
Mahesh, you just made me feel so much better!
I noticed this on The Fellowship of the Ring though too, which someone else posted they thought the dialogue on this movie was amazing.
Was it me?
I also thought the dialogue was good on LOTR TTT!
gthomas
Are you guys using the DTS or DD soundtrack? I often find the dialog is mixed at noticeably different levels between the two.
Hi,
I started with DTS (which was worse than DD when it came to dialogues) and then switched to DD Ex in the setup menu. My Yamaha 2095 receiver doesn't support EX format but I have played other DD EX discs and no such issues in the past.
The details in the loud scenes are fantastic (DTS & DD). Its just the center channel (dialogues) that is very low on both tracks. I even tried boosting center channel only by a couple of db but it just wasn't enough.
I know its not my hearing for sure. I read a review of this DVD at
The Digital Bits site and they too found the audio excellent although they haven't written about the dialog clarity.
Can't figure this one out !
I switched my front left and center speakers, all still played at 75db. I switched them back, but changed the connection going to them (front left on the amp is now going to center speaker, center on amp is going to front left speaker) still at 75dB. Watched House of 1000 corpses last night (yeah, i know, its not lord of the rings!), but the dialogue seemed too quiet still. I cranked up the center all the way possible on my receiver and it to a satisfactory level.
Hopefully i'll have some time to put LOTR back in and see what I think it sounds like now. Also need to get the pink noise out again, see what my center registers at now.
twopecker,
It sounds like calibrating the center channel a few dB "hot" may be just the right thing for you. When you say "cranked up the center all the way possible," by how many dB was the center channel over-calibrated or "hot"? Also, how does music sound with the center channel left over-calibrated like that (both in the DPL II Music mode and in discrete 5.1 music programs)?
the front L&R are at about +4, center is at +10.
I only listen to music in 2 channel (and the sub sometimes)
What DVD player do you have? The reason I asked is that I had the same problem on my Pioneer Elite 45a. Did a little investigating and found out that the center speaker was set to off in the DVD setup menu. Funny, because even though it was set to off I could still sound coming from it. It might not be the receiver set up, it might be the DVD player. Worth a check.
I just have a cheap pioneer model. I will look into that further.
Is the center quiet from other sources? Or in other encodings?
My center works fine on other DVD's and sounds wonderful in Dolby Prologic too. So far I have only had a problem with LOTR (TTT) dialogue audibility when using my setup.
Checked my dvd player, I did not see any settings that would control the center channel. Its a cheaper dvd player, so Im pretty sure its just not there.
I have only used the receiver for DD encoded dvd's, so I can not say if its quiet on DTS or just prologic. And as I already said, for music, I do not use the center channel.
I just meaures the center channel again. While the other speakers are right at 75dB, the center is at 79dB.
Hi,
I installed my M60's today (I'll save the details for another day) and once again fired up the LOTR (TTT) DVD. I stuck with the Dolby Digital signal and played with the center speaker level and finally was able to come with settings where dialogues became audible (loud and clear) from the center speaker.
+4 db was a minimum for clarity but my final choice ended up as +8 db on the center speaker. I dont have access to a SPL meter at this moment so I couldn't get the actual db of the front speakers.
I watched for a while and I was happy to not have to hold the remote in my hand all the time thereafter.
BTW, the DVD I have has 'FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION' subtitle in some scenes in the middle so I dont think it is the final release version. I think it is the pre-release version. Could it be that this version has poor center level ? I am going to borrow my friend's copy to see how that sounds. How about your version ?
Does any one have T2:Ultimate Edition? I found the dialog to be very soft on that in places; granted, I don't have 5.1 (just 2.1), but I was curious whether anyone else experienced this.