Would this be a good starting point for crossover settings in this 5.1 setup?
Front l and r - M100 - 40
Center - VP180 v3 - 60
Rear - M22 v3 - 80
EP800 sub

Or would you take center up to 80 and M100s up to 60?

Amp rated at 500w at 4 ohms

Seems sensible to me.

Shoot, I'd let those front speakers play full range.

I agree.
Balance the subwoofer with the mains by ear and then let 'em rip!

Blu, it's curious that some owners of nearly full-range speakers and an excellent sub(such as the EP800)are hesitant to set the speakers at say, 80Hz rather than 40Hz. They're concerned about "wasting" a very small part of the speaker frequency range, while not expressing a similar concern about not using as much as half of the sub's range to its best effect.

As long as the sub isn't localized, setting the crossover to a higher number is the way to go, making maximum use of the frequencies it does best both because of inherent design together with the ability to locate it specifically for best reproduction of those frequencies.

A uniform 80Hz crossover is still suggested.

Thank you. I am going to split the difference between all of y'all's advice!
M100s at 60 Hz
VP180 and M22s at 80 Hz

Audyssey sees both my M22s & VP160 at 40 Hz.

Just to be different from the herd, I run them both at 60 Hz. Works just fine in my modest system...

TAM

actually it is not Audyssey that sets that. Audyssey just reports back to the receiver mfg the +3dB point measurement of the speaker in your room during the sweep. Each mfg has a different point at which they set a speaker to small or full range. Some are 40Hz, others are higher.

I actually wrote that Audyssey 'sees' (or more correctly hears) my M22s & VP160 as 40 Hz...

TAM

SirQ:

You are probably correct; however, I'm confused after reading your post again.

Am I wrong in thinking that when Audyssey tells my Denon AVR that the -3 Db point is ~40 Hz, it sets the Xover there but also sets them to 'small'? Why is Denon's suggested setting of 40 Hz for supposedly 'small' speakers?

The prevailing wisdom is to then manually set them higher (but never lower). I can see the reasoning for this - to let the subs take on more of the load in the <80 Hz region where they often work better than most mains.

Despite a lot of reading on this subject, I guess that I still don't really have a grasp of this tool...

TAM

"Small" just means use the cross-over point, where "Large" means don't, and send the full frequency range to the speaker.

Thanks Club.

Makes sense...

TAM

More Audyssey musings:

What parameters does Audyssey/AVR use to determine whether to set a speaker as 'Large' or 'Small'? If it senses that the LFE channel is covered by a sub, does it automatically set the Mains as 'Small' or is this selection based solely on the test tone that it hears?

Has anyone had their Mains automatically set to large?

Mine are always set to 'Small' & '40 Hz' with my subs handling the LFE....

TAM

Tom, as has been said, Audyssey measures the frequency where the speaker is 3dB down in its particular location in the room. The receiver then uses that measurement according to its own standards to either set a speaker "large"(full frequency range with no crossover)or "small"(a specific crossover frequency between it and the sub or main speaker handling the low bass). If there's a sub, it isn't "sensed", rather the owner manually sets the receiver to indicate that a sub is connected. In that case all the speakers will have crossovers(if a special "plus" type of setting is selected though, the mains will play their deep bass along with the sub, rather than being crossed over to it)and any LFE in movies will be played by the sub rather than the mains.

In my room my M22s measure as justifying a 60hz crossover, but I set that to 80Hz instead, to give the EP500 more work.

I get what your saying, John. You tell the system if there is a sub attached or not. However, if you proceed with the Audyssey tests after having indicated, 'Yes there is a sub,' there is still a portion (at least in my in my older Denon 3608's version of Audyssey) where it does attempt to "sense" the sub before continuing.

Due to a problem I had that was resolved with a firmware upgrade, Audyssey would send the initial test tones to all five speakers and then to the sub and the result would be that it could not continue and an error message akin to "speaker not detected" would appear. If I told it there was no sub, it would complete the test on just the five speakers successfully and continue on.

After the firmware upgrade, it still sent test tones to all 5.1 speakers but the missing speaker message went away and it would continue on to the next phase of tests.

I believe you are correct in your intent. I just wanted to share this with the OP for further information.

Rant oncoming.


John, this makes the assumption that the sub is 'better' about playing the same range as the floor standing when the full range speakers also play, perfectly fine, down to say 40Hz or 50Hz (or lower depending on the speaker).
The blanket statement you put forth (sub better in this range compared to a full range speaker) is purely subjective.
Both those speakers (a full range or a sub) can play equally well within their frequency limits. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

Again if the goal is to have a completely linear frequency reproduction, then the only way one can qualify which is better would be by reviewing a frequency response graph.
Not all people own subwoofers with DSP controls to flatten the response so we cannot assume all own an Axiom sub with this ability.



Again there are no definitive numbers on this.
Review a frequency response curve for a M60 between 50Hz and 150Hz and try to explain how that is 'worse' than the same range played by a EP350.

Also missing from this comparison is the apples to oranges technical differences between a full range speaker and subwoofer for which the sound of the full range speaker might produce bass (even low bass) better than a sub.
Does someone have a monster full range speaker with 12" bass drivers but only a single EP350 sub?
Because they do exist out there (i have one close; the Tannoy Definition D700 uses a 10" driver and ranges well down to 35-40Hz).

Noting from my another example of technical differences, the M80s use two 6.5" drivers which has a greater surface area compared to the EP350 which uses a single 12" driver.
From that spec, the M80 technically has the ability to move more air for low range sound (and hence its quite low frequency response measuring -3dB at 31Hz). Obviously the limitations come in for amp power and box size which is where the sub now becomes 'better' but only for the very low range.

I've been running my M60s at full range for years, using a crossover point of about 45-50Hz with an EP350 sub.
The bass sound integrates well and i've tested moving that xover point up and down to where the bass sounds thin (a hole in the frequency response b/w the M60 low end and the subwoofer tail off), or where the bass sounds fat (a doubling up of bass with the M60 low end and overlapping the EP350 as the xover is clearly set too high).

Why do i not use the EP350 for higher bass frequencies?
Because i find the sound to be too heavy and bloated especially for music. If i turn down the sub gain, then explosions in movies sound too weak.
Room effect?
Sure, there likely is. But i can't move the sub into the middle of the room either just to get rid of a standing wave or any other numerous issues that may arise by leaving it in the only location i can; next to the M60 on the left.

Having been around the forums for years and soap boxing against many different opinions of audio, though primarily the snake oil nonsense, i'm surprised this one (subs are better at 40Hz to 150Hz; set your large speakers to small for a xover) continues to be perpetuated as the "preferred" and "technically superior" option (discussions of official Dolby theatre technical suggestions aside).

It isn't very scientific of your normally balanced perspectives John.

I have a 7.2 Denon AVR 891. I don't remember setting any speaker parameters manually before running the very first calibration, but that was a long time ago & my memory might be faulty. I have run numerous calibrations since I bought this AVR a couple of years ago.

When I plug in the mic & start the calibration process, the first pass polls all of the 7 channels & reports what channels it hears. I have only 2 surround speakers so in subsequent passes, it disregards the 2 that are empty & bypasses them. So in a way, it does 'sense' that speakers are active on each specific channel & those that are empty, including the sub on LFE.

After the 6th pass it shows all speakers are Small; L&R M22s 40Hz, VP160 40 Hz & QS8s 100 Hz. I then set the both 40 Hz to 60 Hz & make sure that the subs are set to LFE & 120 Hz.

So I guess what I'm asking - at what -3 Db point does is set mains to Large or is that setting only done manually by the operator?

As an aside, since I recently changed from QS4s to QS8s, Audyssey's settings were a bit puzzling. It consistently heard the previous QS4s at 90 Hz. During the first 2 calibration runs on the QS8 V4s, it heard them as 110 Hz. That didn't make me happy so I ran the first half hour of 'War of the Worlds' to give them a good workout. Now it hears them at 100 Hz. Maybe there is something to this 'break in' thing & it might get lower still with more time on them, ha!

TAM

Chesseroo said: "Noting from my another example of technical differences, the M80s use two 6.5" drivers which has a greater surface area compared to the EP350 which uses a single 12" driver."

false; twice the diameter does not make twice the surface.

Chess, I'm pretty much with you.

Based on my experience, I absolutely DO NOT believe that ALL frequencies below 80Hz are nondirectional. So, I don't want them all coming from the same place in the room.

Likewise, for nondirectional frequencies, given adequate amplification, why WOULDN'T I want a balanced approach using more transducers (to eliminate room nodes)?

IF you've got the necessary power, I just don't understand why you wouldn't play full-range speakers full-range.

"false; twice the diameter does not make twice the surface"

True, there are 2 speakers ie 4 drivers.

132 sq inches vs 113.1 for sub.

I agree with johnk that GENERALLY 80hz is the defacto "do no harm" setting to set and forget. However, chess is absoluely right that a lower setting can be better depending on many variables.

One thing also of benefit to crossing over at lower frequencies is taking advantage of lower mass in those drivers at capable frequencies. Lower group delay. Lower distortion etc.

Both scenarios are viable. Depending on too many variables to decide without hearing in the room.

Tell us more about the tannoys chess.

It's not just surface area, it's the volume of air displaced by the cone. So surface area multiplied by excursion distance.

Cool. Here is a calc. to factor this into account for those inclined. Makes sense even just reading the page.

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/DriverDisplacement/Help.aspx

Chess, of course my comments were based on a situation where the sub was of superior quality(such as the EP800)and was placed for best reproducing the low bass frequencies. If these conditions don't prevail because the sub and/or its placement aren't adequate, and the speakers do a better job, then the sub shouldn't be given more of the bass range and maybe shouldn't be used at all. In my view, based on principles of bass reproduction and to some extent my personal experience, in the great majority of cases using good subs properly positioned they should be handling most of the low bass frequencies and the mains should be rolled off electronically. So, this will continue to be my general suggestion.

In your case, where you're not using a crossover on the M60s, it's entirely likely that setting the low-pass filter(not "crossover")on the EP350 to 45-50Hz may give the best blend with the "natural" roll-off of the mains. It wouldn't be surprising that setting the sub higher in that situation would result in the sound being "too heavy and bloated" with both the sub and speakers playing full-strength. Minimizing that is why both sub and speakers should be rolled off electronically and not be simultaneously playing full-range.