I don't want to touch on too many topics that are already here. My purchase decision for Axiom was based on fact finding research rather than hearsay and nay-sayers. I wanted something better than what I had but wasn't willing to pay an arm and a leg or a hope and a prayer to get it.

I have given up asking on that other forum for advice as they don't seem to listen to what I am asking and don't have the same mindset to what I am trying to accomplish.

I am building a new room in my basement for a media/listening room. It's something that isn't going to be finished for another 5-7 months, but when the room is done I would like to have the equipment or at lest some idea of what needs to go inside.

I liked the reviews of the M80 and hope that the v.4 unit will be even better than the v.3's that I have read up about.

Q- When you ask around about Axiom speakers, the common response is they tend to be bright. I still have not got mine, but I am wondering from those who have actually heard them. Would you say that true or just one of those hearsay rumours that won't go away?

Knowing about sound, what you get out of a speaker is very much influenced by what goes in. Like, if you put in a garbage recording, you will likely hear garbage sound. But I also hear that amplifiers also have a characteristic. So I hear that a bright speaker with a bright amp x is torcher, but match the same speaker with a tube amp and it can sound wonderful.

I have a Pioneer VSX-1126K amp that I was thinking of using. It should handle the 4Ω M80 speakers, but I am told that these sound much better with a larger amp. Based on the printed manual is says the amp is only good to 6Ω but online is says 4.

I was thinking of hooking up a power amp through the pre-outs for the front 3 speakers, so if the amp is not powerful enough, then that could take care of it.

I have looked at a better Pioneer Elite SC-1527K that has a D3 210w @ 4Ω but it costs more than getting an Emotiva XPA-3 that probably is a better unit.

Q- Knowing what sounds best with these speakers, what would you suggest? I'd like time to budget to get the money, research and buy before the room is done so I can start to use it right away. I am not really interested in the "try what you have and see if it's good enough" routine. I know it isn't and I would rather have something good and make it even better with accoustic tinkering.

Matt

Matt, welcome.
You have a lot of good choices with Axiom, if you were to ask them they'd likely ask what size of room you'll be finishing, your preference between music and movie viewing, TV or Projector, etc. and then they'd suggest an appropriately sized unit. Listening to them may save you a pile of cash. Me it was go big or do't buy and I've no regrets.
The room dimensions help alot here, for me, so this would be interesting to see what you have in mind.
Many of us live off this stuff, exited to see someone else jump on board and "hear what they've been missing".

Matt

If you want to stay under a grand for an amp you don't have much choice really other than Emotiva. Axiom has some great amps as others will attest to, but are out of my financial reach . I have an XPA 3 and 5 and am very happy with them. I wish I had started with the XPA5 as I now have one lonely channel LOL . I have M80 v3's and my kids (20&22)have never commented that they sound bright( they have excellent hearing ) and since I have compromised upper frequency hearing (old age)and so I can not comment on the M80 being bright but they still sound great to me. I know what you mean about that other website , very frustrating hearing the same BS spewed over and over. The jury is still out on the whole " all amps sound the same IMHO "

Right now I have carved out a 23x25' space in the basement. The room is not perfect and has a 1' jog on one of the walls. The ceiling height is not uniform, with 8'2 on the low portion of the ceiling, and 8'10 on the heigh. There is the HVAC return air ducting that when boxed in will be 7'6 but that will be along the back wall of the room.
There is a single small window on the side where the speakers and amp will be located. Also this room as the 200amp electrical panel and 3 other connecting room doors. (furnace, workout and cold storage room)
The floors are going to be planton(dimplex)with 3/4" plywood and 5/8 solid walnut plank flooring. I will have some form of area rug on the floor. The walls will be double offset for interior with Roxhul safe'n'sound. I am planning to do some sound isolation on the ceiling too.

But again, the room has not even been started, and exactly how it is built will be designed after I know what is going inside.

I was thinking about a projector, but I will probably be far happier with a 60" LED TV as I cannot get total darkness for the room. (WAF)

I am planning to build movable sound damping panels for the walls myself, and thinking of the same idea for the ceiling. I am told I may need a bass trap (no idea what that is).

I would like to eventually get an EP500 with 2 or 4 QS8 for surround. Right now I do have a Mirage PB8 and a set of Energy Take5.2 (2003).

I like most everything except RAP. I really like classical, 80s synth bands, Blue/Jazz like Holly Cole, or Cowboy Junkies. Quite ekletic. Movies, I am a syfi action buff, hence the EP500 on my list.

Matt, welcome to Axiom. What you've apparently heard elsewhere about Axiom speakers being "bright" is no more accurate than what you've also heard about amplification. The treble response is smooth and accurate and will reflect the characteristics which are inherent in the particular source material which is being played at the moment.

As to amplification, competent design results in the sound simply being made louder without adding some inherent sonic coloration. Blind listening tests confirm that this is achieved at quite moderate cost in receivers and at somewhat higher cost in separate amplifiers when they're operated within their designed power limits. An engineer who designed a unit which had a "sound" would be subject to being fired for incompetence.

A "larger amp" has no capability to make speakers sound better at given loudness levels. If the speakers are being played at a very high loudness level(possibly damaging to hearing)which exceeds the maximum clean voltage output level of the existing amplification, an amplifier with higher maximum limits will have lower distortion, of course. In the vast majority of home listening applications typical modern receivers with rated outputs on the order of 100-150 watts are completely sufficient.

Matt
I know you didn't ask whether or not you actually needed an amplifier . I think its best if you draw your own conclusions and the best way to do that is with some reading. I would like to share an article with you that I found interesting. I have no opinion one way or the other, I tend to buy what I want when I want within my budget. Audioholics and this video.

Every speaker needs to be hooked up to an amplifier if you want to it be something other than a piece of art. In my post, I indicated that I have a Pioneer VSX-1126K receiver (amplifier) but in the specs published by Pioneer is lists that the unit works at 8Ω but can be configured to 6Ω but does not say 4Ω that the M80 and VP180 speakers work at. Now running 3 speakers from this receiver might work. But will it in the long run damage the unit as it is running hot, over spec and end up causing my $800 investment to fail? Then would it not make sense to buy a new receiver or power amp that will properly support 4Ω?

And so the question. What would you get?

Matt, there is a pretty big different between a receiver and amp. When referring to an "amplifier" most of us will assume you're talking about a separate amp. Yes, receivers have amps built into them. But, they are usually referred to as a receiver. These words are not usually interchangeable as this will cause confusion.

for my two cents. I currently have 3 separate amps for my room, which is 18x17ft. Preciously I was using a 5 channel marantz amp which is rated for 135w per channel, an mm9000. But, that amp was being driven into the clipping region; so, I bought larger amps.

more power buys you just that, more power; like John said, which I agree with. More power does not = better sound, it just means you can listen at a higher volume without driving the amp into the clipping region which causes distortion and destroys drivers.

hope this helps.

Some quick points that overlap others:

1_ The amp is part of a receiver or sometimes also called an AVR (audio visual receiver). AVR usually have video processors, inputs for multiple video and audio sources, AM/FM tuners, plus the amplifier section. They are the all-in-one required to play sound. If you buy separate components, you would need a source player (e.g. dvd), a pre-amp, an amp, then speakers.

2_ More power (as in wattage) is only required if you are further away from the speakers, like to play them loud, or the receiver that one owns is simply under-designed or under-powered for the application you want but could be used as the pre-amp section for a sound system.

3_ The ohms limit to which you refer could be an issue with some speakers for some receivers. For example the M80s are listed as 4 ohm speakers while the Pioneer receiver you have is listed for use with 8 or 6 ohm speakers (and possibly 4 ohm as you do have some conflicting information). A 4 ohm speaker may provide too much load on such a receiver which does not have a beefy enough power supply and if that occurs, the receiver usually has protection circuitry that shuts it down before anything blows. Knowing that, you might want to choose a receiver that is known to work fine with 4 ohm rated speakers if you are unsure about the Pioneer. Some names that have been tested over the years includes Denon, Onkyo, Sherwood Newcastle, Rotel and certainly some Pioneer receivers (there are likely many more brands, i only listed a few). Personally i've always found Pioneers to run hotter compared to others, but that is just one man's opinion and i haven't seen a Pioneer receiver in use in years so maybe their designs have changed.

4_ A "perfect" room for sound is NOT a square or rectangle. If anything, having some bumps, dips, sloped ceiling, is actually useful. Think of how proper concert halls are designed. Many have a sloped or curved ceiling and walls above you and around the main seating area.

5_ Adding acoustic treatments to walls (and this includes what people call a bass trap), can change the sound, but whether it "helps" to make the sound response more linear, more accurate, could only be measured with a microphone and special software. Some people on these forums have measured the sound response in their listening chairs after playing around with acoustic treatments. Start by simply buying speakers and tinkering with their placement and the placement of your seating positions. Just keep in mind that with plain walls, hardwood floors and not much else in the room but typical couches, the room will reflect alot of sound and potentially sound very echo-ey (some listeners describe this as 'bright' or 'harsh').

5_ My own opinions of Axiom speakers is that they are a fantastic value. It is a great company with superior customer service, research philosophy and custom options. That being said, Axiom speakers are not my holy grail. I have heard other speakers that i like better for some reasons, but if i had my way, i would combine certain things about Axiom with those other characteristics of other speakers and perhaps then i would have my perfect speaker. I can only suggest you get a local demo of Axiom speakers near where you live if you are uncertain about buying them upfront. Even if you do, you can return them to Axiom within 30d if you don't like them.

Don't forget about the used market though. Buying used audio gear opens up a whole world of low priced purchases. I got an Anthem MCA30 amp years ago, it was about 2 years old, for about $500 while new they are over that $1k mark.

I would have hoped that those who will buy axiom product would not be snooty highfalutin who want to spend time judging others against what they feel is correct.

I guess I was wrong, and this forum is full of the same people that drove me from the other forum.

Dakkon, consider yourself called out for being a SNOOT! With your first paragraph I am to take it that you would prefer a title like:

HT Receiver or pre amp and a Power Amp recommendations to make my newly bought Axiom M80v4 and VP180v3 speakers sound good.

if you feel the need to criticize people.. DON'T. just turn off the computer and go listen to your music and keep your opinion to yourself. If you would like to help, then how about answering the specific question.. (if you took the time to actually read the original post!)


I have a receiver (hope this is acceptable for you) that does not support 4ohm.

I can purchase a new higher end receiver that can handle the 4ohm speakers that has a better D3 210w@4ohm amplifier inside of it. It is easy as I simply phone up the store and they deliver it to me two days later.

I could also purchase an External Power Amplifier such as an Emotiva XPA-3 but I would have to order it shipped to a US postal address, then take a day off to drive out there and pick it up. Pay the taxes and duty if any to bring it back into Canada. It will give me 330w@4ohm. But it is a much larger hassle to get but still within my realm of doing if it would be noticeably better or gives other advantages that I do not realize.

For an average person, will having an external amplifier sound better than a receiver with a D3 amp inside of it?

I don't plan on listening to movies or audio at really high volumes. I live in a residential neighbourhood with other houses besides mine. I have young kids, and I want to save what is left of my own hearing. So no 100db+ from these speakers.

To give perspective, I find most movie theatres play way too loud.


is the question now really clear or is there additional information needed to answer.

Matt

I really don't think there is anyone here among us that can say unequivocally that an amp will or wont work in your situation. Honestly your the only one who can make the final decision. Given what you said about your listening habits I would say you probably don't need an external amp. I don't "need" an external amp in my setup but as time went along I found I really wanted one so I got one.

I don't think anyone here is being snooty. External amplification is a hotbed topic on the internet and we all have our opinions. I try to help as best I can without sticking my neck out too far since the "no amp " crowd can be very defensive.It is best to do lots of reading and make your own decision based on your personal requirements. As for the M80 being 4 ohm , if you look at the impedance graph it spends very little time at 4 ohms and many here drive them without problem with modest receivers .

Welcome to Axiom and welcome to the forum!

I really don't think Dakkon was trying to be snooty. It is indeed a somewhat hotly debated topic as to whether the amps included in receivers are sufficient for stereo or home theater applications. I do think in general there is some agreement that there isn't really very much difference between the amps in one receiver versus another, as long as the receiver is a decent one.

I myself had a higher end Denon receiver and thought the sound was great! Then I got my Axiom speakers (M80s at first) and started investing in separate amps -- I now have an Axiom ADA1500 (4 channels) and a vintage Parasound (3 channels). I currently have a 5.1 system in a relatively small room but do like to listen to movies and music fairly loud, often at reference levels. In my case, I definitely believe that the investment is worthwhile.

Your proposed HT room is actually quite large. If you want to achieve reference level for movies in that size room I personally doubt that the amps in your receiver will be up to the task.

By the way, if you're in Oakville, Ontario, I'm not far away and would be happy to have you come over and listen to my system sometime. (I'm in Maple and probably no more than an hour's drive from you.) That way you can make a more informed decision. Please feel free to PM me.

Good luck with your HT plans!

I really don’t have time for BS’ing on forums anymore, and generally just do a quick scan of posts that I might be interested in. But, this forum has been a haunt of mine for many years. I’ve seen a lot of members come and go. I’ve seen a lot of BS. Dakkon has been around for quite a while. I have not EVER seen him say anything condescending. If anything, he has always been helpful and informative. In fact, I am most likely considered one the snobs around here, but it isn’t because of my tastes in AV gear. Pretty much every forum regular is what I call, “Frugal”, and “Questioning”. They don’t buy into $1000 speaker cables, or that $10,000 Macintosh amps “sound” better.

So….You sir, are way off the mark. If anything, you appear to me as someone who might just be a bit sensitive.

And Axioms are not “bright”. That’s bullshiit. Even the older Ti models where not bright, and they are definitely more “detailed” than the V2’s and V3’s.

If I were in your shoes, I’d be looking at a two channel amp. 200wpc unit to drive the M80’s, then let the AVR drive the remainder of speakers. I have found the M80’s to really like power for the extra head room during those intense action scenes in movie watching. You can find some good, used amps like Rotel for a song.

Concerning amplification, I'm biased towards Pioneer Elite receivers. I've had 2 Pioneer Elites and 1 Denon. I believe the sound quality provided by the upper quality Pioneer beats the Denons dramatically. My current one was purchases around 2 years ago and is one of the SC models with 140 wpc.

For some reason, probably the difference between Denon's Audyssey and Pioneer's MCACC, I found the Denon's to be much brighter sounding and not to my liking at all. More bass also with the Pioneer and a much fuller sounding system.

This is only my opinion, of course, but where I've found sonic pleasure.

My remark about snooty is in reference to "there is a pretty big different between a receiver and amp." I get that is can be a contested topic where some people believe one thing and others believe something different. But I would say that there is more in common between the two than different.

And had the question been about if a Receiver was an Amp or should be referred to as an amp, then great to bring up the point.

If the wording on my original post was that confusing that the use of the word amp rather than receiver would leave many people confused as to what I was asking. Great, bring it up.

Perhaps I am being a bit over-sensitive, but if you took the whole first paragraph out of his post, would it have lost any meaning? Had I known that there would be a problem using the "A" word when I should have used the "R" word I probably would not have posted here.

All I was asking for is some personal experience from people who have used the product. If it's a common thing that the speakers don't sound good on a lower end Receiver designed for 8ohm and that is simple common knowledge then it's something that I'd like to know before I plug them in.

You are correct that I am the only person who can decide if it is worth it to buy a new Receiver or an External Amp. But I do value others experience as to what they found. Like it would be nice to know if a number of owners found it remarkably better when plugged into a high powered external amp, then it would be worth looking into. Likewise it would be good to know if other found that getting a modest priced external amp worked the same as the receiver it replaced then it gives you a point of reference when looking for what to buy.

It seems the only common thing that I have seen here is that most users believe that High End audio stores give biased advice to sell the product that they have. So going to them for advice is a fast way to spend more money.

Would you agree that using a common set of terms is advantageous when discussing topics that can be complex? This is all dakkon was getting at. This forum is a community that has been around for a while and people are generally friendly. You can choose to read someone's post as antagonistic, or you can choose to give someone the benefit of the doubt and assume it was written without ill intent.

Matt

Anytime someone asks about amps, the no amp crowd flock to the thread like fly's to s**t. I can highly recommend the Emotiva amps , they are very good for the price and you wont hate yourself for buying them. For me whether they sound different or better was not a factor I considered when buying an amp. A separate amp allows me a different upgrade path and it also removes unnescessary heat from the Processor portion of the receiver. I hope to add a dedicated prepro at some point. This hobby is super addictive and upgraditis gets most of us. I suspect in light of the fact you are considering an amp that at some point you will end up buying one, since once its on your mind you wont stop until you have one

That article I linked to can help with some good common sense explanations about why the no amp camp may not be as right as they think they are. I gave up arguing with those people long ago. Funny thing is some of them that argue against actually own external amplification, go figure

Richard

Well said, now maybe we can move on to the topic at hand.

Welcome, Matt. Are you in Oakville, Ontario, or another Oakville?

I have the M80s, v2, and I run them with the Onkyo HT-RC370, a receiver rated at 100 watts. My room is 14' by 16' with a 7.5' ceiling, so about a third the cubic footage of yours, but I feel I am only using a small fraction of what the receiver's power for my movies and music. I suspect that, as JohnK has said, a receiver in the 100-110 watt range would be more than sufficient for your needs.

Yes, that is Oakville Ontario. So it's only a short haul over to the USA if I need.

I looked up the specs for your Onkyo, and it lists it as being like my Poineer VSX-1126K in supporting 8 and 6ohm. How long have you been using this setup, and do you find your receiver running hot?

The reason for my questions is that I've had a Harman Kardon fail with the unit overheating. Now that might have been that the fan inside the unit failed, rather than the fan failed due to the internals overheated... I don't really know.

My current VSX-1126K is in for repail (luckily under warranty) for the HDMI board going poof, but I have read that this part goes and service can be brutal to get it replaced. I know that Paradigm uses the words 8ohm compatible with their speakers. So I am not sure if that means the same thing as Axiom's 4ohm rating even though it's only that for a range of frequencies where it will pull more power. Personally looking at Axioms graph it looks like more than 50% of the time it's below the 6ohm bottom end of my unit. Of course Paradigm provides no impedance graph to work with.

I am thinking for piece of mind that I might look to upgrade to a better Receiver or look into finding an external amp. Sadly, around me seems to be rather devoid of amps that I am interested in. There are some really old stuff that might work fine, but I don't know if I want to go there. Many that cost too much for me to consider, and the good deals seem to get snatched up in hours.

I have done some more looking and have found an Anthem MCA5 power amp for sale. Now looking at these units, they are from the early part of 2000 so the unit is at least 10 years old but could be 15. The cost is about $200 less than an Emotiva XPA5 but it is also local and Anthem is a local company too, so getting it fixed if it does break would be far easier. I have heard good things about them.

The unit is rated down to 2ohm so I know it's more than enough. 250W@ 4ohm should be enough.

That amp will be more than sufficient I would think. Your nose is you best friend when buying used electronics, we all know what they smell like when they have gotten too hot. A used amp is not like a used car where it is driven everyday. You can always make a low ball offer it never hurts.

BTW did you check canuck audio mart.

I'd do that Anthem in a heartbeat. They make wonderful equipment and high quality vintage amps tend to be quite reliable.

Welcome Matt. I'll echo others here that dakkon is a good guy. Things get 'lost in translation' on the internets.


You are so close to Axiom, why not drive up to Dwight and listen to Axiom's offerings at the factory? The plant tour is pretty cool too!


Bzzzzzzzzzz. You called?

I'm in the no separates camp myself. Most of the time, I'm not drawing more than one or two amps in my small room to get up to reference. Find an online calculator and play with it a bit to get a sense of how power requirements work. For the Crown calculator you need to add 5 db to the speaker sensitivity to account for being in an enclosed space (room gain). You will be surprised how little power you need most of the time.

In the end, you need to go for what makes you comfortable.

Let us know what you end up with.

I'm in the no separates camp myself. Most of the time, I'm not drawing more than one or two amps in my small room to get up to reference. Find an online calculator and play with it a bit to get a sense of how power requirements work. For the Crown calculator you need to add 5 db to the speaker sensitivity to account for being in an enclosed space (room gain). You will be surprised how little power you need most of the time.

In the end, you need to go for what makes you comfortable.

Let us know what you end up with. [/quote]



Fred, I have always had better than average stereo's growing up , my house was often the place to party. I have always had amp envy , so even though I don't play loud any more I now have the means to afford an amp , even though I really don't need it. I enjoy my system a lot more than I would ever enjoy a new car.

Rather a moot point for me now as I went out and purchased an external power amp.

Did I need one.. I cannot say.

My thought is that using those online calculators either proves that Axiom is totally falsifying the requirements on their specifications web page, or the calculations are all wrong. An average conversation with someone is around the 60db level. Over 80db caused perminant damage to your hearing. using the link provided, if I wanted 70db of sound 4m away from my M80 speakers, i would need 1db of amplification. But Axiom publishes the speaker minumum is 10db. So to meet Axioms requirement, I will be forced to endure 83db of sound that is like listening to a bulldozer.

I had been meaning to answer your question earlier - my Onkyo never seems to get hot. I like concert films and movies a bit louder than my wife and son, but I've never measured the dB produced.

My Harman Kardon in the living room, powering (ahem) a set of 5 BOSE Lifestyle cubes and "subwoofer" actually gets much warmer from less spirited use.

If any thing Axioms spec's are under rated.

You may have misunderstood the spec's, you do not need to turn them up any louder than you prefer.

You will want to set up your entire system around your preferred volume.

75-85 seems to be average for theaters, myself I've experienced amazing sound from "just barley audible" all the way up to "I should know better but it sounds so good".

The amp will come in handy when your friends and or kids get the remote. Think of it as an insurance policy. I've found friends who like to hear music "too loud" have no sense when it comes to how loud it might actually be in the room. The only distortion you'll hear will be from the content, until you run out of amp.

Any one else consider we're basically listening to someone else' distortion most of the time? I've had some crazy stuff played in my system, old and new, and on multiple occasions thought I'd damaged something only to change the song and have crystal clear sound again.

I love these things.

Or you don't understand the specs which seems most obvious.
Just because a speaker generally uses only a few watts on average doesn't mean there are no peaks beyond a couple of watts. Turning up the volume to get even a moderate SPL of 70 db sitting 10 feet from the speakers will have power requirements beyond just a couple of watts. That is the primary reason for having a larger amp, with higher capacitance.
Axiom likely advertises a min. of 10 watts for example because if Joe Blow uses a an underpowered receiver/amp (non-tube), it will go into clipping and that is what can damage your speakers. Then guess who gets the call with a complaint that no one told them what minimum power they needed to be using?
As for any audio company, there is an expectation they are trying to provide some type of minimum as a guideline for any customer who has little knowledge to know what might work sufficiently. Everyone knows you can power a speaker driver with a 9V battery, but that doesn't mean this is suitable for most common applications as it generally isn't practical (even though there are some battery powered amps out there which do work; but you have to be cautious about its use).
http://www.parts-express.com/sonic-impact-5065-gen-2-t-amp-with-power-supply--300-958


I highly suggest you read more about electronics specs to better understand why things are posted on any audio site and know the positives and negatives of them before tossing out implied statements that companies and sites with power calculations must all be wrong or malevolent. You can find a ton of old threads discussing everything from the -3db/-6db to impedance and wattage numbers right here on the Axiom forums.

Yes, I stand corrected in I didn't understand what the spec's were saying.

It is not that the speakers require a minimum of 10watts to work, it's the amplifier should be a minimum of 10watts to work with these speakers.

I see by plugging in some larger numbers into the web site that the wattage can climb very high very fast when you get into the extreme deafening levels.

OK, got it.

and, don't forget the button on top of this page, named "GUIDES".
lots to learn in there.

I would recommend buying something you know you wont be looking to upgrade in the near future. This may mean saving up to get at least 150wpc/8ohms all ch driven or better.

I have done the upgrade route several times, and would have saved a bundle if I stopped worrying about bargain shopping and just bought what I wanted originally. Such is life.....

Did you end up with an emotiva unit?

[pedant]

70 db at 10 feet puts the M80s at exactly one watt, and that's with a healthy 10db of headroom.

[/pedant]


Enjoy!!

Fred, just to comment and hopefully not be too pedantic on that point, use 88dB for the 1 watt/1 meter M80 sensitivity. Then at 10 feet(using a typical 3dB loss per doubling of distance in a reverberant listening room), 1 watt would give about a 83dB sound level(per speaker). 1/10th of a watt would give 73dB and 70dB would require about 1/20th of a watt. Headroom isn't relevant to the power actually in use at the specified level and distance.

I've been out pedanted.

::runs away crying like Mark::