Hello everyone...I'm in the planning stages for a home theatre. Getting mixed responses at AVS Forum regarding centre channel speakers. I want to keep my business in Canada and pull the pin for Axiom speakers soon. I would like to use M60's for L and R. Have been told to use a 3rd M60 behind an A/T screen instead of a VP160. ( off axis response?) My problem is that I will have two rows of seating....tweeters are best at ear level... How can a position a M60 upright and project to the second row? Should I just keep the " sweet spot" for the first row and have tweeter height positioned as so?
Thanks in advance for all of your help!
Conrad
I've read a bunch of conflicting stuff as well on horizontal CC speakers & it seems that everyone has an opinion. While I suppose that a third identical speaker is ideal as long as it is not blocked by a TV, stand or whatever, it is often not feasible to do in many HT systems.
Based on my unscientific experiments with 3 horizontal CCs of different brands, I found that in my room there were no audible deficits until one was way off axis (outside of 30 degrees), & then there are more nasty problems seeing & enjoying the display. IMO, the artifacts caused by comb filtering & dispersion of horizontals are way over hyped & in the real world are just not a significant factor. I found them to be really negligible & I suspect most people would find similar results in their own room.
I have a VP160 & it is simply an outstanding performer in all respects as a CC. If you can fit one into your system, it is really worth a try, but remember, it is a big sucker...
TAM
Yes, three of the same speaker is preferred, if you can get away with it -with an AT screen you have that opportunity. I'd keep all 3 m60's at the same level and angle. You can probably split the difference between the height of the first and second row for tweeter position, but I'd focus on the front row. One gets used to the sound, regardless of seating position, pretty quickly; even IMAX theaters don't have their tweeters aimed at every seat.
Conrad, welcome to Axiom. The VP160 has a T/M configuration that creates no off-axis problem, so it can be considered to be essentially identical in response to the M60.
As far as the question of tweeter level goes, this would be somewhat of an issue regardless of what center speaker(or mains)that you use, but generally this would have a minor effect on the second row if the height was optimal for the first row.
Perhaps I am off base and just not knowing..
But if you have an issue with the tweeter for the center speaker and the second row, would you not have the exact same issue for the Left and Right speaker also? The Center is not like a Sub where you can set all the high frequency to be crossed over to it.
Yes dialog for the most part is in the tweeter range, and most movies dialog comes from the center channel as people talking generally are mid screen, but you can and will get just as much higher frequency from the Left and Right too.
I would say that if you have an AT screen and can get away with aligning the M60's to all be at the same height across the front, then you would get perfect timber matched sound and by far a better sound experience for everyone.
I will have the option to use an existing horizontal CC or lose my rear surrounds in favour of having three matching towers behind the screen. This will give me a bed of 5 vs 7 channels. I'm tinkering with the idea of doing this and moving the CC to a front middle height channel and laying the extra tower on top of a shelf as a rear middle height channel. These will be in addition to 4 in ceiling speakers. Thoughts? Still just a crazy idea at this point. Really want to try three matching fronts.
I should have included a bit more info maybe. I will be listening to lots of two channel music where I will have my L/ R speakers flanking outside my screen on a front stage. Most likely the listener will be myself in the sweet spot in the front row seat. For movies, it will be 2 rows of people. My concern was , years ago people would mount a centre channel below a non AT screen, now everyone is saying for movie watching you should mount it above the screen to project above the first row heads to the second row. Having said that....My real deal question is why wouldnt HT builders at least raise/ toe down a centre channel behind an AT screen to catch BOTH listening rows of seats?
I also own a Pioneer SC57.... Hoping to keep my speaker setting in memory. 2 channel listening M60's not obstructed behind a screen at all, and then a speaker setting for movies only. Am I getting to involved with this centre channel idea lol?
Lastly... Is there a space requirement from the face of a VP160 to the back of an AT screen so you are not seeing the speakers rumbling the screen....
They dont do it because pans across the front soundstage arent as smooth when the tweeters are not at the same height. Placing the CC above the other tweeter heights may reduce the seamless presentation and increase the likelihood of timbre matching/off axis response issues. I'd agree with the first row being priority and the guest row response being easily acclimatized to by guests. The only reason we tweak and obsess over such details in our setups is because we live with them and notice even miniscule optimizations. Your guests may not even notice once they are in front of a huge screen.
My experience is guests are most impressed by LFE and clarity.
Thanks Serenity. I am leaning towards the VP160 now. Makes a tiny bit more sense to have a horizontal speaker firing towards the listeners at that elevation during a movie. If you placed a middle M60 for a centre channel, the lower drivers will be aiming at the first HT seat/ listeners crotches lol. The VP160 will deliver dialogue from tweeters/ drivers all at the same plain. I appreciate everyones responses in the matter. Back to more stage planning. Thanks guys.
Glad to help. Your fee is sharing pics when youre done!
Welcome to the Axiom boards!
I will definately post pics. I'm planning a " never before seen" HT/ Bar build to turn some heads lol. I've been stuck at AVS for a long time. I promise to contribute to the Axiom forum a lot more. Thanks again for the advise!
I think that you will find more maturity here along with generally a friendlier & less confrontational attitude.
As a bonus, there is often a smattering of humour as well...
TAM
Funny you say that. I've been in heated discussions at that site as of late. I'm a licensed industrial electrician by trade, close to 28 years in the racket. I try to promote a little safety for the DIY ers' and I get attacked sometimes like I am a scare monger lol. I will be hanging out here and giving the other site a break for a while. Looking forward to the light hearted approach .
Thanks Exlab
Fellow sparky here.
Perhaps I am off base and just not knowing..
But if you have an issue with the tweeter for the center speaker and the second row, would you not have the exact same issue for the Left and Right speaker also? The Center is not like a Sub where you can set all the high frequency to be crossed over to it.
Yes dialog for the most part is in the tweeter range, and most movies dialog comes from the center channel as people talking generally are mid screen, but you can and will get just as much higher frequency from the Left and Right too.
I would say that if you have an AT screen and can get away with aligning the M60's to all be at the same height across the front, then you would get perfect timber matched sound and by far a better sound experience for everyone.
I have to agree with Oakville....you can't beat 3 identical speakers as your front soundstage,anytime you turn a speaker horizontal it is a compromise ( one which most of us have to do..) but I think you will be happy either way.........or will you?
My 1.5 cents
Yes dialog for the most part is in the tweeter range,
Actually, no.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/audio-odd...%80%99s-voices/
+1 Sparky! Good to know, we can compare notes lol.
Hmmm.... I certainly see the positives for a third M60 in the centre for a single row set up. But with a second row, the drivers will be shooting sound to the first row torso/ seat, blocking sound to the second row. If you had a VP160, it would at least be at a higher elevation to throw towards second row listeners. I feel like I'm chasing my tail again lmao. Has anyone on here physically tried both? Curious. Would Axiom cut a deal for a (3) M60 package. I see they sell in pairs. Thanks guys for the comments and help so far.
Suggestion - there are 2 sets of M60HPv4 in the B-Stock Store begging for a nice home at tremendous savings. Then order a single standard M60v4 for CC duties as the HP wouldn't really be required there.
I have several B-Stocks & they are just fine.
You wouldn't go wrong with a VP160 either...
TAM
Thanks Exlab! Will check it out. I'm actually hunting for refurb or bruised . They will be hidden. Thanks again
You should be ok. All 3 fronts will exhibit the same off axis response vertically. Seamless and superb for your second row.
So long as there is line of sight to the tweeters (the narrowest dispersion frequencies) you should be just fine.
Its cool you are really thinking into it at this level of detail. Acoustic shadows and stuff. What I am concerned with is my wife will want to pick seating with high backs, obscuring the rear surrounds (towers on the floor) in my planned setup.... this is a bigger issue for most setups I would guess.
What I am concerned with is my wife will want to pick seating with high backs, obscuring the rear surrounds (towers on the floor) in my planned setup.... this is a bigger issue for most setups I would guess.
More home theater seating should have removable top portions on their backs. I saw one at a local dealer, and that's it. Granted, I haven't done the most exhaustive research, but I have scrolled through some of those theater seating sites specifically to find that feature in the past. I'd prefer a low back, personally, but I'd like to give guests the option.
Go with 3 identical speakers. You won't regret it.