Hello gentlemen. Been a while since I participated on this forum. I usually buy, enjoy, return to upgrade, enjoy some more….. Anyhow, I’m curious about the Axiom ADA amplifiers – particularly the ADA 1500. Considering this amp for my front stage (M100s and VP180). Actually considered the ADA a while back but other priorities popped up – but now I’m interested again. Maybe also an EP800 sub.

I have read a lot on this forum concerning amplifiers. Some argue they’re not necessary, some prefer tube over solid state – some just like to argue (lol). Axiom member recommendations include Monoprice, Rotel, Anthem, Emotiva, Outlaw, Integra, Crown, Odyssey, etc. But rarely do I see anyone recommending the Axiom ADA amps.

What’s up with that? Am I missing something? Should I look elsewhere for an amp?

Like always, your insight and advice are greatly appreciated.

Muchas gracias.

Note: Would have posted this in Advice from Axiom Owners but for some reason I don't get a New Topic option in that section.

The Axiom ADA amps have received extremely positive professional reviews. I have not heard them myself, but am confident that as with all Axiom products they are terrific and backed by the best customer service around.

I expect they would be superior to the Odyssey offerings. I have an Anthem PVA5 5 channel modest powered amp (125 wpc) and it sounds very good and has lasted for about 10 years no problems.

I'd expect Axiom to be among the highest quality amps available.

I've got the 1500 on my wish list....for my next room.
The two years? or so that I've owned my 1000 it's performed flawlessly. The triggers never failed and after all the moving room,changing cables, etc it still looks and feel like new. I'd pick up another one in a heartbeat if I had the cash.
It's never heated up either, never more than warm to the touch.

For all 3-channels driven, the ADA-1500 is capable of cleanly delivering 500W into each of your fronts for about $US900 per channel delivered to your door. As a bonus, it's a 3U form factor. Do you know of another manufacturer that can deliver that kind of power for the price? And form factor?

I have been pounding an ADA-1000-5 pretty hard for over a year, and have never gotten it to clip, even at some pretty high levels.

I have had amps from Adcom, Aragon, Outlaw, McIntosh, Emotiva, Marantz ... and cannot say any of them was better/more powerful in real world use than the 1000.

In all honesty I really wanted to get the ADA but I just couldn't afford them. I have my spoon in too many pots all the time. I still hope to try one some day.

I've been very happy with my ADAs (1500-4 powering the LFR-1100s, 1000-4 powering my 4 surround channels). They may be overkill for my space, but that's what I was going for. I never wanted to worry about power, and I haven't. After I upgrade to a full-fledged Atmos receiver, I'd like to get another to power the remaining channels, but we'll see what my budget is at that point. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them.

Thanks for the replies. Appreciate the feedback on what looks to be my next purchase.

I'm in the process of upgrading my home theater. Have a Denon X6300H on order (October delivery) and next week my Sony 75X940D arrives. Need to be ready to watch The Walking Dead to see who got their head bashed in (in HD).

I've eye balled them for a long time....

I'd say pull the trigger and the report back with your impressions!

A few years ago I acquired an older model Axiom amp, my girlfriend (who has much better musical ears than I) insisted it stay in the music room (replacing a Bryston 8b). There were some issues with the earlier Axiom models - this one included (seemed to die randomly then work when it cooled off if I recall) and I purchased an ADA 1500-7. We're using it to bi-amp B&W 703's (I don't have a home theater) - the Bryston is still in storage.

The ADA is front and center in the latest Axiom sales promotion email!

Excuse the link issue - http://www.axiomaudio.com/big-boys-promo...ptember_19_2016

Question - for M22 bookshelves, QS8 surrounds, and V150 center, do I need anything more than a 2 channel for L/R? Have a Yamaha RX 659 which is highly rated for power (see below).

At full continuous unclipped power (132wpc x 1; 8 ohms, 120wpc x 2; 8 ohms; full bandwidth with less than 0.1% THD+N), the RX-V659 still maintained excellent bandwidth linearity with a -3dB point of 65kHz despite we were driving the receiver way beyond its rated 100wpc power specification. Into 4 ohms, the RX-V659 was able to deliver continuous power levels at a whopping 200wpc x 1 and 170wpc x 2 with less than 0.1% THD + N

a +5 wpc benefit from upgrading to an ADA1000 2 channel?

Now, if I were to upgrade to a VP180, would I be better off with an ADA 3 channel amp, or spring an extra few hundred for the HP 180? Interested to hear any thoughts/suggestions. Thanks

Yup, awesome deals. Just ordered an EP-800. Also just received a good deal (Amazon.com) on a Denon AVR-X6200W. Arrived today and will try it out. If not enough will go ahead and also order the ADA amp.

Anybody else getting in on the "Big Bargains" deals?

Axiom should have these more often. Well, maybe not or I'd go broke.

Just decided to grab a 3 channel ADA1250 can't wait.
Expect to enjoy for a long time.

Axiom's awesome products at such a steal.

Though the wife's probably gonna kill me when the next Axiom box shows.

Hi all, I was also tempted by the big sale. Not sure if ADA would be overkill for me as I use the older in/on wall M22's and my HT is small. Was also thinking of that EP800 to replace my EP500. Apparently I dream of overkill! But then the reality of house and wife I mean house :-) renovations rained on my parade!
Also just read this article this morning about switching in class D amps - does anyone know what switching the ADA's use? I'm interested in learning more about this.

Cheers all.

Well since today is the last day of the "Big Bargains" sale I went ahead and ordered an ADA1250-3 amp. Was surprised to find out the amp only has a two-year warranty. Also ordered an EP800 sub nearly two weeks ago (hopefully arrives this coming week). Turns out the sub only has a two-year warranty also yet speakers have a five-year warranty. Oh well, been an Axiom customer since 2010 and have yet to use any warranty.

As always, thanks to all for your comments and advice. Can't wait for my new toys.

I think the orders you just made would come with the 5 years, as the refurb. is the only section with a 2 year. Being a new product it should have the usual 5 years I think. {hopefully}

I also got in on one of the ADA1250 3 channels, anticipation is building.

Though I didn't get any details about warranty and such yet.

All the products sold in Big Boy Toy promo are new and have a five year warranty. It is only products in the Refurb Store that are two years.

Hi Dan,

The article that you linked is pretty good, but note that Skip uses the word "historically" in the section talking about Class D distortion and feedback. We now have output devices available with extremely low gate resistance and low energy storage, so the days of super-high-feedback being required for Class D have passed. For your reference, all of the ADA amplifiers use a self-oscillating topology and are pure PWM...there is no PCM conversion going on.

Thanks,

Andrew

Andrew - thanks for the response and info on the ADA.

Tico - enjoy your new toys, I am a bit jealous! Please post your thoughts once you've had the chance to let them stretch their legs.

Great to hear. Thanks for the clarification.

Is this the cable I would use to connect my Denon AVR to the Axiom ADA amp? Any other recommendations?

FosPower Cable

Dear Tico that cable should be fine. I've been browsing the same ones though I settled on Monsters ultra rca's my self.

Hey brendo, have you had an external amp before? Wondering if I'll hear a difference or if it's simply more volume. I fantasize it's going to be like one of those commercials where the guy's sitting in an armchair and everything's flying by him due to the power coming from his speakers. I want that - my hair (all 17 of them) flying back from the M100s and VP180.

As far as the RCA cables, I hadn't even considered Monster as I've always associated them with EXPENSIVE.

The wife and i did some googleing and are pretty sure we know who it is... I wont tell you though....

I say buy as much power as you can afford..... That's all i got.

Yes, I'm currently running my M80s through a vintage A\B pro power amp.{Crest Audio VS900}circa 1997 450 watt dual 900 bridged. When I first added it the difference was noticeable more bass and a lot more to the volume. My receiver set them to full range and I didn't even check for a couple months, until I noticed my little SVS PB1000 sub was inaudible the M80s were doing all the work with out any strain.

I suspect with an ADA your larger speakers could run full range easily. Though to reenact the commercial you'll probably have to sit in front of your Ep800 at some pretty high volumes.

The Monster cables can be found on sale quite often as most shops like to turn their supplies, especially in larger cities. But I bet that FosPower cable will do just fine, it was just easier for me to get the monster cables my self as I've got a shop a couple blocks away.

I am still rather puzzled where it comes to volume and amp wattage.

I had an old Nakamichi AV1s that was rated at 100watts. It got way louder with any of my speakers than I have gotten with my current Anthem AVM60 and ADA1000 at 250watts.

I know it will have something to do with voltage gain, but does more wattage on an amp really translate into louder output? or is that a function of the total gain through the pre-amp -> amp ?

Hi Matt,

This depends on whether you are referring to the volume level at a particular point on the volume dial or the maximum overall attainable volume. The gain in your system from the various sources, through the pre-amp, and the front end of your main amp (and the speaker efficiency) will establish how loud your system will play at various points on the volume knob; but the overall maximum output capability will be established by the main amplifier continuous output, the man amplifier dynamic headroom, the speaker efficiency, and the speaker maximum output capability.

My experience has been that sometimes the preamp does not have enough output voltage to drive the amplifier to full power, and sometimes there is too much output voltage and the amp is driven past full power and into clipping depending on the gain of the amplifier. Preamps that don't have enough voltage output can clip the signal in an attempt to drive the amplifier to max power. Normally consumer products play well together though there are exceptions .For example my Emo amp has input sensitivity of 1.5 volts for max power whereas the ADA has a 1.2 so a little easier to drive to full power. Pro amps tend to require more input to be driven to full power. I notice that many car stereos use 4 to 5 volt output in the name of noise rejection but car amps have input sensitivity adjustments to compensate. Without specs for your amps its hard to tell why your 100 watt amp seeming played louder but I suspect its because it had more gain and may well have been clipping .Just a thought. I am sure Ian can correct me where I may be wrong.:)

It looks like a common belief that those two points are one in the same.. but I had a sneaking suspicion that they were not. This is where I get to the point of confusion that is compounded by marketing babble. There must be a finite number of watts that a speaker can handle. You post on your speakers that number seems to range from 250~400 for your floor standing speakers.

So from what you are saying. If you are just driving 2 channels of sound, then you would see no advantage getting the ADA1500 over the ADA1250 as the speaker could not use more or be pushed louder, all other components remaining constant.

it was Tico's comment that brought this question forward.



So I gather that the fringe audiophiles that go out and purchase 1000+ watt amps are in reality throwing good money after bad against a wall hoping it will stick. If your speakers are designed for a maximum wattage, then going much beyond that number is little more than a fools errand.

I the audio video tech talk, of the guides section. There's a couple of very informative articles on this matter.

Matman, your question about 1000W amps depends on a number of things. First, it depends on how loud you like it. Second is whether you listen to dynamically compressed or uncompressed music.Third it depends on how much power you can pump into your speakers before they dynamically compress.

If you listen at 1 Watt per channel nominal, which may be quite likely, at grunge music which is typically dynamically compressed, then amplifier power and speaker compression is a non-issue. But if you listen to music that preserves dynamics, like well-recorded classical or movies, then that 1 Watt is fine for a flute but you might need as much as a few hundred Watts for a loud brass and drum passage.This few hundred Watts can easily become 1000W or more if you listen at a higher nominal level.

If you had M3s, they would dynamically compress at about 150W. Each of your LFR1100s won't compress until they hit 400W or maybe even more. I would venture to say, for short dynamic bursts, the LFR1100s are good to over 750W.

Most don't need a 1000W amp but I think we all need amps with dynamic reserves. When I need a couple of hundred Watts out of my Onk, it comes out of stored reserves and not the wall. If I listened to more than a Watt nominal, I would likely need a beefier amp.

Mojo has pretty much nailed it. Really all that happens when you exceed the numbers that so often make up power specifications, either output or handling, is that time stops being “continuous”. But audio playback does not exist in a world of continuous time, it is dynamic. So what is most important when chasing a great audio experience is what happens above the continuous power rating or handling. An amplifier with good dynamic headroom can play many times its continuous power rating for short periods of time without clipping; this is critical to a great listening experience as clipping is best translated as harshness when listening. Harshness, though not pleasant at any volume level, is downright nasty at loud levels. The numbers are interesting in a large room. For example it would take around 64 watts of continuous power to achieve an average listening level of around 96 dB. If you wanted to be safe and maintain 15 dB of available dynamic headroom you would need over 2,000 watts of power available for short periods of time.

The same is true for speakers. It matters little what they can handle for continuous power, generally measured as 5 hours of modified pink noise, because we do not listen to pink noise (ok, maybe Mojo does). What matters is what happens above the continuous rating for short periods of time. We take this very seriously in the design of every Axiom speaker. It is in fact the main reason we use aluminium cones as their heatsinking capabilities for the voice coil allow for much greater power handling; both continuous and dynamic. We also make sure that Axiom speakers do not make any extraneous noises when pushed way beyond their continuous power rating. Extraneous noises from your speakers will kill a great listening experience instantly.

"It matters little what they can handle for continuous power, generally measured as 5 hours of modified pink noise, because we do not listen to pink noise (ok, maybe Mojo does). "

Unlike music, the pink noise spec is complete, correct and unambiguous. I know exactly what I am listening to and it never disappoints.

Thank you very much for the short hand, Mojo and Ian.

In regards to being able to drive a power amp to it's potential [Eg. 1volt power 2volt} From the pre output. Can you over power the power amp? Say 2volts into a 1volt or 1.5 nominal input into distortion?
Or would that be decided by the power amps inputs?
{Eg. 1volt or 2 volts maximum power draw}

You can overdrive and overload an amplifier.

If you apply 2V to an amp that is designed for 1V, you will overdrive the amp. The amp might be designed to accept up to 1V and amplify that signal linearly by say, 50 times. With 1V applied, the output at your speaker could therefore be as high as 50V. Beyond 1V, the output is amplified linearly by a factor of 50 and there are non-linear components as well that result in harmonic distortion. These non-linear components are added to the linear component and you get distortion that sounds like crap. This is called clipping because when you compare the output signal to the input signal, it looks like someone has cut the top of the output signal off.

An overload is different. If you apply a voltage that is above the insulation level of the circuit, you could get fireworks.

Thank you again for the info.

Shoot I hope I don't run into problems, as my pre/pro has an output of 2volts. And the 1250 I ordered is specked at 1.5.

The last thing I want is the fireworks from an overload.

This is my go to article for an explanation of gain for the laymen , meaning me. I don't have occasion to use the info too much and this is a great refresher.

Richard

You will have no issues what so ever. That 2 volts is at full output. My pre/pro puts out 11vrms on the balanced outputs and my amp is 1.5v input sensitivity 29db voltage gain. Volume controls are logarithmic and don't ramp up like older linear volume controls.

Really hate that about the new volume controls. I wish they went back to linear as you had far more control over volume level with them.

With the current logarithmic control, you have many rotations from silent to virtually silent. You slowly ramp up to a listening level and then it requires decimal degree rotation to get from where you want to listen to too loud.

If they did an inverse logrithmic so you go quickly from silent to a listening volume, but it takes more and more of a rotation to get much louder from that. That would be fine. But I still think the linear volume was the best

I have a Pioneer Integrated amp that I bought 35 yrs ago and it has linear control, volume increase's proportionately to how much I turn the volume knob. I have an Emotiva pre/pro and it has to be turned up to near 3/4 before it starts putting out substantial volume which feels disproportionate. I often see complaints in other forums from people saying they have to turn up the volume quite high and are concerned something is wrong with their receiver. I am with matt on this one, give me linear any day.

I'm wondering if we might have the terms reversed here. My recollection was that we always used logarithmic ("audio taper") pots for audio, and I *think* (unless I had too much turkey) the undesirable behaviour you guys are describing is what one gets with a linear taper pot.

EDIT - or maybe I have that backwards. Apparently too late to delete the post, maybe too late to edit as well. Nope, I can edit even if I can't delete. Interesting.

I have a Honda S2000. If you replace the stock head unit, the dash volume control becomes linear. Our hearing is logarithmic. Linear volume control results in an unpleasant and apparently non-linear increase in volume corresponding to change in the volume control. In order to fix the problem, you have to put a resistor in the volume control.

I may have been hasty in stating that my old integrated amp was linear. It may well be a linear with a resistor but it functions much different than my new gear. It feels and sounds more linear in its function. Strangely my car stereo seems the same way as my old integrated. Some of the difference may be my old stuff is mechanical whereas this new stuff is all done electronically I presume in software. To me my Denon and Yamaha and Emotiva all seem to need to be turned way up before they really put out whereas my integrated with mechanical seems to reach full power sooner . For me it is all about perception and the end result is the same.

I see what 2.6 is saying. since we hear logarithmic and the control is logarithmic we perceive it to be linear.

yup

Still the perception of power is not linear to me.

I think the difference is now we use a DB scale.
which is quite confusing to our older habits a library is say 40 Db and a normal voice talking say 60 db.
Now our receivers and such are using these same measurements. So turning it up to say 50 is now normal. While on the older gear 1 to 10 scale 4 and 5 was already half the dial.

Though does that mean our equipment has a 100 Db max in return.?

Every modern receiver / pre-amp that I have owned uses the -db scale. So with the dial starting at mute, that is -89db. But plaing any source, it seems that I don't start to hear anything until i get to the -40db before the sound becomes noticeable. On an old analog classic receiver, you would hear sound at 1.

This is where the idea of logarithmic comes in as it's not referring to the actual amount of sound coming out the speakers, but the ratio of the amount of turns on the volume knob to the amount of sound. At lower volumes, you seem to need to turn an awful lot to get any sound and that amount of turns seems to decrease in a non linear (logarithmic) fashion as you turn the volume up.

Just wanted to give an update on my EP800 subwoofer delivery. You can see in the pic that it arrived without a box. Turns out the box got wet and from their handling was destroyed. Some minor damage to the exterior of the subwoofer but was working fine. It was delivered on Friday and on Monday Axiom already had a replacement EP800 on its way.

Just a reminder - this was all a FedEx problem. Axiom, as always, has been great and taken care of me. Yesterday I received my ADA1250-3 and it arrived without incident.