M80ti's small room.

Posted by: liquidchaos

M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 02:05 PM

Hello!

In our new house the only space I can fit my theater stuff is the small spare room. It is 12' wide by 11 feet deep, 9 foot ceilings.

Speakers will be about 8-8.5 feet apart and I will be about 8 feet from the front of them.
Are my m80s too big for this room?
Should I use port plugs if they aren't too big?

Thanks !
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 02:28 PM

I'm 8'8" from mine atm in a 12' wide room.
I have mixed feelings about being this close. On one hand they still sound great, on the other I can't shake the memory of them at 12' and 14' away.

Better to have an ht than not...

I've tried with and without port plugs, I like aspects of both.

At the moment mine are a foot off the floor and well off the front wall. Tweeter center to center 8'4 1/4".
Posted by: Gr8_White_North

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 03:32 PM

Im in a room 15 x 15 roughly and about 6 ft from them and i wouldn't give them up for love or money . If you running subs and are concerned about the footprint that they use then get some M5 HP's on some FMS stands.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 05:08 PM

I don't know how you guys manage with M80s in these smaller rooms. Do you have mattresses covering your walls and ceilings?

I'd totally go M5HPs with a sealed sub. Space the M5HPs along the 11' dimension so they're 8 feet apart and 1.5' away from the sidewalls and the backs are a foot away from the wall. Then place your MLP 9.75 feet away from the face of the M5HPs on the diagonal. Don't toe them in.

Trade in your M80s if you have to.
Posted by: liquidchaos

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 05:39 PM

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Originally Posted By Mojo


I'd totally go M5HPs with a sealed sub.

Trade in your M80s if you have to.


Uh oh, sealed sub... I have two EP500s. Is that a problem too?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 07:36 PM

They must be version 2s? The ones with the large hole in their face? If they work for you, enjoy them.

Two of those in that room will resonate the sinew off your bones.
Posted by: Gr8_White_North

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 08:19 PM

You are far too dramatic Mojo, seriously. This guy came asking for opinions from people that would have a similar setup and then you beak off like a know it all discounting everything we said. You should listen to yourself on tape before you post here.There is nothing wrong with sealed subs .
Posted by: AAAA

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 08:48 PM

Just cross them over to the subs a little higher and turn down the sub channel as needed.

Its possible to reign them in if they load the room too much or are boomy sounding in there.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 08:55 PM

Richard, I didn't discount what you and Blair said. In fact, I pointed out how sub-optimal large speakers are in a room that size.

I have the benefit of knowing, in great detail, what M80s sound like in a 10x10x8, a 12x15x8, a 12x20x8 and a 22x30x7 room in my own house. I also have the benefit of knowing what bookshelves sound like in all of these rooms.

Armed with this information, I gave chaos the benefit of my experience including measurements that if followed, will produce an optimum auditory experience. I also recommended a sealed sub because the distortion components from a ported sub will wreak havoc in a room with those dimensions.

Blair's experience mirrors mine.

Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 09:06 PM

Trevor, it's not only the lower frequency interaction that's a challenge. M80s need room to form a more enjoyable soundstage.

The unfortunate reality is that buyers want top of the line which usually means they purchase floorstanders without due consideration for the space they'll be in.

They then space them close together and sit 6 or 8 feet away. The speakers sound "great" only because the buyers don't have the room to hear them further apart and from further away. They have no idea what they're missing.

I've been there, done that and will never go there again. I want to evangelize the benefit of larger rooms or small speakers for smaller rooms which lead to a better integration.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 09:28 PM

I'm pretty sure he knows its a compromise heading in. smile Its all relative. It sounds great till you can do a little better.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 09:37 PM

If you have a look at his original post, he asked "Are my m80s too big for this room?"

That tells me he doesn't know. smile
Posted by: Gr8_White_North

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 10:07 PM

I have lived in a lot of different houses over a 40 year span and they were all different sizes, from 1000sq ft apartments to 3500 sq/ft houses and one thing remained the same, the size of my speakers. I would rather have large speakers in a small room than buy small speakers and end up with a big room. Big speakers can work a lot better in a small room than small speakers in a big room and speakers are damn expensive and not something i buy willy nilly. So for the OP unless your future has you in a small room forever get the M80's they work well and you have them for when things change which the often do.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 10:36 PM

Chaos already has M80s which is why I recommended he trade them in. He is not buying them.

And if his subs are ported as he indicated, he should trade those in for sealed particularly since he'll be in a smallish room. Chaos, I lived with the 600v2 for a decade and I deeply regret it. You can read about my nightmare and subsequent discovery of Nirvana in my EP800 review. Go with a 500v4 which is sealed. When you hear it, you will be a changed man.

Socketman's reasoning for large speakers is, by his own admission from his last post, purely a choice of economics. My reasoning for M5HPs is purely for an improved sonic experience.

Also remember this: the M5HPs incorporate many learnings since what I surmise are older, maybe M80v2s that you have. The M5HPs were designed from a preponderance of a modern methodology of family of curves, improved cross-over engineering, all new drivers, improved mid-range baffle and improved cabinet design. All in all, the engineering that went into the M5HPs is far more mature than the engineering that went into the M80v2.

Oh...and the M5HPs were recently reviewed against a floorstander at three times the price and they were similarly good. smile And as Craig Chase has said, M5HPs with an Axiom sealed sub, forms a $10,000 speaker-killer system. If you don't know Craig, he is the omniscient grand poobah of audio gear comparisons.
Posted by: Gr8_White_North

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 10:43 PM

and he is in a new house and i highly doubt its the last house. You already have the M80's just put them in the room and see how you like them. Make sure to add some treatments to the room ,you will see more improvement from properly treating the room than changing out the speakers.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 10:50 PM

If you just put the M80s in there, you'll like them because you have no basis for comparison. smile

Your treatments for M5HPs and a sealed sub will be simpler and fewer in number and may consist of nothing more than stuff you already have like art and a bookcase. And do not over-treat. The Axiom gear relies on reflected sound to portray a sense of spaciousness.

Read my 800 review. The sealed sub made my whole system sound better no matter where I sit!
Posted by: Gr8_White_North

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 11:17 PM

If your crossing over at 80 hz or above there will be little differnce since both speakers share the same drivers. Plus you wont have to spend extra cash buying stands to get the speakers up at ear level the M80's are already there.If its too much just disconnect one tweeter and that is free. No need for an HP speaker if the bass is handled by the subs.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/02/18 11:41 PM

The M80ti doesn't have the same type of drivers or the same number of drivers as the M5HP.

BTW, the M5 comes with an HP driver; there's no choice in the matter. The HP drivers are more linear in magnitude and phase throughout their entire SPL range compared to the standard drivers. What I don't know is how audible that linearity is at lower power levels. Even with an 80 Hz cross-over to the sub and at 4W/channel, my M80v2 woofers are quite active.

The tweeters are in shunt. Disconnecting one will alter the response of the other because the cross-over will see a higher output impedance.

Also, the reason for dual tweeters is for reaching higher sound pressure levels. If you disconnect one, at higher power levels you could thermally over-load the other. At best, it would sound distorted. At worst, it could permanently fail.
Posted by: Gr8_White_North

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 12:04 AM

He is not unhappy with his current setup so no need to spend money on new speakers and i know the M5 is hp and if he is using a sub then he has no need for them. Your advocating for more bass in one breath then telling him 2 500's are too much in the next. If he is looking for an excuse to buy new stuff thats fine but he doesnt need to replace perfectly good speakers. Different doesnot translate to better.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 12:20 AM

Chaos hasn't said if (s)he's happy or unhappy with the current set-up. Not that it matters. What matters is the future set-up. Chaos specifically asked if "...m80s too big for this room?"

I am not advocating for more bass. I am advocating for improved speakers and sub whose designs are more commensurate with his room size and include more linear bass.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 12:33 AM

What's going on, Charles? Say somethin', man!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 02:03 AM

Chaos, I think you might have designs that date back 12+ years. You may even have the 500 that pre-dates the v2. That's the one with the brick wall filter on the DSP and an old amp. The v4 is a completely new beast. You will think you've died and gone to heaven when you hear it. Yours sounds like garbage compared to the new. Trade it all in. You know about the trade-in program?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 02:10 AM

It's too bad you live in Virginia or Vegas or wherever the winds have blown you now. If you lived close to me, you could hear what a 23 foot sound-stage is like with M80s and the EP800v4NME. That would give you a completely new frame of reference.

In 2.1, I hear stuff 6 feet to the sides of my speaker boundaries. I just wish I had depth. I've been told I need M100s or LFRs for depth.
Posted by: CV

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 02:43 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
I've been told I need M100s or LFRs for depth.


I look forward to your LFR1100 review.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 02:58 AM

You'll be waiting like...forever, Charles!

I'd really like to hear from someone who had M60s or M80s and moved to M100s or LFRs. What changed?

I've read the M100s are like the M80s but with more bass. If that's the only thing that's different, then that's pretty sad!
Posted by: liquidchaos

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 03:04 AM

Thanks you all for the replies, I enjoyed reading the debate. You all had some good points that were relevant to my situation.

My stuff is pretty old, think I got it a few years before I left Virginia... and that was 11 years ago!

Would love to have been able to hear your stuff Mojo... my axioms are pretty much all I have ever heard. I have one buddy with a decent setup for movies, everyone else I know has a damn sound bar. I figured maybe my m80s wouldn't work in the room, but thought the ports may help. You guys even addressed something I didn't post, which was what if I cut off some of the drivers/tweeters inside. 😁

I am probably an due for an upgrade, but definitely didn't want to. I didn't really think speaker "technology" improved enough to warrant an upgrade if I already had something that was good. I will say I am surprised that a new sub may be in order, as Socketman guessed, I wasn't looking to have to buy all new stuff yet. I had come to terms with most likely needing a new LCR before posting on here, this was more so a last ditch let me see what options I have from the knowledge of those who know more than I. Subs will probably have to stay for awhile. I will probably buy some KEF q100s for now and see how they compare with my m80s in the room and use whatever works best till I can do a full upgrade.

Thank you all again very much.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 08:28 AM

Great speakers are more affordable now. As in your choice. Enjoy!
Posted by: bridgman

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 08:41 AM

A couple of people pointed out that the crossover from sub to mains gives you a degree of LF control that people running without a sub (eg typical 2-channel system) do not have.

IMO that is a really important point, since the biggest challenge I have seen with large speakers in small rooms is not being able to get them far enough away from the walls and getting stuck with too much bass reinforcement as a consequence.

As long as you set the M80s as "small" rather than "large" (so the M80s are not handling deeper bass anyways) I expect you will be fine, and may not even need the port plugs. You might have to adjust the crossover point up to 100 Hz or so.

Speakers have certainly improved over time (and I am another fan of the M5HP) but I am also very happy with M60ti's and a ported EP500 in my home theater and haven't really given any though to changing them.

I did upgrade the center channel though, and will probably add rear surrounds and maybe Atmos channels at some point (that's what the M2s and M3s are for).

Sub placement is going to be interesting in a square-ish room - probably worth looking into that as well. My first thought would be "one right by the listening position (like an end table) and one near the mains" although having them both near the listening position might be fun.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 10:08 AM

I think it was J.B. that had the speaker cockpit. M80's flanked by SVS tube subs in a small room driven by pro amps. It can be done. If not a little crowded. smile
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 11:16 AM

Originally Posted By bridgman
...the biggest challenge I have seen with large speakers in small rooms is not being able to get them far enough away from the walls and getting stuck with too much bass reinforcement as a consequence.


That and forming an enjoyable soundstage.

Originally Posted By bridgman
As long as you set the M80s as "small" rather than "large" (so the M80s are not handling deeper bass anyways) I expect you will be fine, and may not even need the port plugs. You might have to adjust the crossover point up to 100 Hz or so.


This has not been my experience with my M80v2.


Originally Posted By bridgman
Sub placement is going to be interesting in a square-ish room - probably worth looking into that as well. My first thought would be "one right by the listening position (like an end table) and one near the mains" although having them both near the listening position might be fun.


I thought my room was "bad" or I didn't know how to place my EP600v2. But I realized over the years just how bad that sub was because when I brought other subs into the room, they sounded right; not nearly as deep or as powerful but tighter and faster.

When I first powered up my first EP800, I did absolutely no tuning and it sounded right. In fact, no matter where I moved it, it sounded right. In its final position and with tuning, it has cleaned up the sound of my entire system. No matter where I sit in my space, it sounds good. As I said in my review, the difference now between Audyssey engaged or not isn't as obvious as when the 600 was in the picture.

For Chaos, I advocate trading in the 500s and M80s if he has to for one 500v4.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By liquidchaos
I will say I am surprised that a new sub may be in order, as Socketman guessed, I wasn't looking to have to buy all new stuff yet. I had come to terms with most likely needing a new LCR before posting on here, this was more so a last ditch let me see what options I have from the knowledge of those who know more than I.


I'm a bit alarmed reading this - I don't think we were trying to give you the message that you *need* to replace anything. The only reason IMO that you would *have* to replace the M80s is if you put them in the room and your family said "they're too damn big and they can't stay here".

You will need at least some room treatments (esp. first reflection points) but those are easy to do and as Mojo said you may be able to do that with things you would want to hang on the wall anyways (as long as your taste in art leans towards fluffy things :)). I believe one of the members here is making some awesome "art + acoustic panel" products which might be an option. My (poor) understanding is that in general smaller rooms need relatively more of the surface area treated than larger rooms but I'm not 100% sure about that.

I don't have much experience with sealed vs ported subs but my impression is that the sealed ones are sometimes easier to find "good enough" placement for... but IMO with a room that size and two subs to play with it shouldn't be too hard anyways.

EDIT - LOL, Mojo posted at the same time as me but we ended up with fairly contradictory messages. I don't disagree with what he is saying, except to the extent that you already have a system and IMO it would be worth setting it up and playing with it a bit before you start replacing things.

I guess I'm trying to say "yes there are good options for changing your components and improving the sound, but just moving to a smaller room should not be the reason you do it"...

... says the guy using M40's as very nice PC speakers smile
Posted by: bridgman

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
I thought my room was "bad" or I didn't know how to place my EP600v2. But I realized over the years just how bad that sub was because when I brought other subs into the room, they sounded right; not nearly as deep or as powerful but tighter and faster.


My impression was that the EP500 fared better than the EP600 in that regard. Not sure if that is from cabinet differences or just more time for refinement, but I don't believe I have ever heard about the kind of issues with EP500 that some people saw with the EP600. Not saying that the EP800 is not an awesome sub, just that the 600 might have been starting a bit further back than the 500. All this is anecdotal though.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 12:01 PM

Originally Posted By bridgman
My impression was that the EP500 fared better than the EP600 in that regard. Not sure if that is from cabinet differences or just more time for refinement, but I don't believe I have ever heard about the kind of issues with EP500 that some people saw with the EP600. Not saying that the EP800 is not an awesome sub, just that the 600 might have been starting a bit further back than the 500. All this is anecdotal though.


Hmmmm...that could be, John. Note however that Axiom's top of the line subs are no longer offered in a ported version. smile
Posted by: bridgman

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 12:29 PM

Yep, agreed... and at some point I am going to have to give one of them a try. I definitely used to prefer the bass from sealed speakers than from ported speakers when I was getting started in audio, although I ended up concluding that transmission line cabinets were a pretty good compromise.

Not sure how to reconcile that with a house full of "Vortex ports" smile
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 12:32 PM

It was tough for me to program my brain to ignore the $2,000 I spent on the EP600v2 11 years ago. But you know what they say about sunk costs. Thankfully, Ian made it a lot easier for me to pull the trigger.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 02:29 PM

Need port plugs for old subs....
Then you're rocking.
Ian might have already considered it and might have a pair kicking around.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/03/18 02:49 PM

Blair, I tried everything man. I don't know if you're aware but the port on the old EP600 was actually a long, wide duct that snaked up to the top of the 600 and back down. I stuffed the mouth of that duct as best as I could. I tried many things over the years. It's all over now with the new 800 but it will take some time for the nightmares to dissipate. My pain will be somewhat alleviated when I FedEx it back to Axiom on Monday.

As you say though, it might be worth for chaos to try wiping the grin off the face of his 500s. He might lose a few Hz of low end but it might make it much better for music.

Interestingly enough, one of my buddies has an SVS PB-1000. I've been trying to get him to let me tune it better but he said it was "good enough". When he heard my 800, he wanted to toss his SVS and finally let me play with it. I re-positioned it and tuned it and it definitely sounded much better but when I stuffed the port and re-tuned it, it was like night and day for music. Movies are good too because his room is small. He's now crafted a gorgeous plug out of styrofoam. It's still no 800 but he's happy enough with the improved sound he'll forego the 800...for now. smile
Posted by: michael_d

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By liquidchaos
Hello!

In our new house the only space I can fit my theater stuff is the small spare room. It is 12' wide by 11 feet deep, 9 foot ceilings.

Speakers will be about 8-8.5 feet apart and I will be about 8 feet from the front of them.
Are my m80s too big for this room?
Should I use port plugs if they aren't too big?

Thanks !


No.

But I've never driven a car and thought.....damn, this thing has too much power. I have a throttle, and my amp has a knob.....
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 02:03 PM

Now imagine Michael, you've purchased a race horse of a car but can never enjoy it because you can't find any roads long enough to get it up to speed. That is a better analogy.

M80s need room to form a more enjoyable soundstage.

The unfortunate reality is buyers want top of the line which usually means they purchase floorstanders without due consideration for the space they'll be installed in.

They then space the floorstanders close together and sit 6 or 8 feet away. The speakers sound "great" only because the buyers don't have the room to hear them further apart and from further away. They have no idea what they're missing.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 03:00 PM

My avatar pick is my car, 605 whp/3120 lbs, 216 mph top speed, 9.8 quarter, 2.8 0-60, and can hit 2 g turns. My roads suck and I can only drive it four months each year. I enjoy the shit out of it every time I drive it.

I have M80's in a 12'x16' room with 200 wpc amps. Love them.

The question was "are M80s too big".

My answer - nope.

If the OP was starting with a blank sheet and designing/ specifying a totally new system, I'd probably go a different route.

Life is short, live it while you can.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 04:48 PM

I was responding to the quality of your analogy, Michael. It's obvious from your response, the satisfaction you derive from your muscle car is unrelated to how fast you drive it since by your admission, the roads suck, implying you can't open it up to exercise its full potential. I can only surmise therefore it satisfies you in a different way.

Similarly, I've met people who have extremely capable speakers in rooms that don't permit that capability to be exploited. In fact, in those rooms, the auditory presentation would tremendously benefit from smaller and less expensive speakers. The larger speakers look majestic however and the price reflects their exclusivity. When I broach the subject of better quality sound, it becomes very apparent sound is of secondary importance to these people. Status comes first smile.

Chaos asked if the M80s are too big for his room. This implies he wants to know about the quality of the sound. I circle back therefore to the quality of your analogy and my subsequent rebuttal.

Also note Michael, he's in a 12 foot by 11 foot room and not 12x16 like yours. Out of curiosity, are your M80s placed along your 16 foot wall or 12 foot wall?

BTW, Chaos is a smart man. He read the various arguments and decided to test out his M80s against KEF100s. I am very interested in his opinion.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 06:01 PM

That doesnt read very nice at all.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 06:09 PM

Oh I get what you are saying Mojo, and am not trying to argue. When I read his initial question, I made the assumption that he already owned the M80's, and was asking if they were too big. I just don't see a compelling reason to not use them for a rationale that they won't work, or would not sound great. I know from my own experience they will work wonderfully. They may not be the "best" choice, but they'll do fine.

In my HT, I have the front sound stage on the 12' wall. I sit roughly 12' from the front wall. I've had several iterations of Axiom's in this room. Started with M22's, then M60's, and now M80's. I prefer the M80's over the rest by far. I also have a VP160 center, QS8's for heights / surrounds and backs. I have two EP500's as well. They are all V4's and I have two, 5x200 wpc amps driving everything. I enjoy the sound system so much, I have no desire to do anything with it. I did try adding width speakers, but the room simply is not wide enough. They were very distracting.

I did have a set of M80ti's in my great room that's 28x32. They rocked that room, so again.... I totally get your point. They like big areas.

I just wouldn't discount them from smaller areas without giving them a whirl. Especially when watching movies with intense swings and peaks.

With respect to my vette, no, I cannot hit top speed with any degree of safety. I can however beat the hell out of it and have a heck of a good time just getting after it or pushing it around some pretty scarry corners and over a mountain pass not too far away from home. It's not just about top speed, but having fun getting there, feeling the torque through all the spots in between a dead stop and what the road conditions and traffic will allow.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 06:46 PM

Originally Posted By Serenity_now
That doesnt read very nice at all.


Which part?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 06:51 PM

Michael if you remember, I'd be curious to know what you didn't like about the M22s in that room.

Have you ever tried placing the M80s along the long wall?
Posted by: michael_d

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 08:53 PM

I do not poses an audiphile's vocabulary skills to articulate in a meaningfully way that would describe what I found lacking in the M22's..... In my woefully inadaquate words.....they lacked mid range punch. Even with moderate dynamic scenes, they always left me feeling as if I were missing something. Hope that makes sense. The M60's were better, but I still found them lacking as well. When I dropped the M80's in the room, I found my happy place. And that was even before running through the calibration process.

No, I have not ever tried placing the M22's on the adjacent wall. My screen is mounted on the 12' wall (it's a 8' wide 2.35 screen with an anamorphic CIH set up). However, I do have the M22's in my loft study/reading area that is 10' x 14'. I sit about 8' from them, and use them with a two channel Rotel amp/pre amp set up. No sub, just mellow relaxing music, usually classical to help me concentrate on my post grad studies that can be painfully boring. I have no complaints and find them quite pleasurable in that capacity. I like them more than my M3's in the same application.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/04/18 09:15 PM

I can understand the lack of mid-range and slam in the M22s compared to the M80s. This is where large, well-designed speakers excel. It is this quality about large speakers that charms listeners and convinces them they must be right for any room.

What about the soundstage? Did the M22s image better than the M80s in that set-up? Was the stage wider? Could you hear stuff away from the speaker boundaries? Did it have more depth? Did the M22s "disappear"? Could you place instruments along the stage rather than just localized to the centre and right and left speakers? Where was the centre image relative to the plane of the front of the speakers? Was that image in front of the plane, at the same plane or behind the plane?

Likely you never listened for any of these qualities or if you did, you have forgotten. Next time you listen to your M80s and M22s Michael, listen for these details. It will be a great distraction from your post-graduate studies.

And BTW, if you place the backs of those M22s 2 feet away from the front wall, space them 8 feet apart and sit 10 feet away, you may hear the music in a completely different way.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 08:02 AM

No idea. I was too charmed to care.

What makes you think I have not tried multiple placement positions with my M22s??? Or the M80's?

You clearly believe this guy needs to blow some cash, even without giving what he has a try. I do not share your opinion.

He has the M80's. Try them. Buy something else if they are not scratching the itch.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 09:14 AM

You say he can buy something else if the M80s don't scratch the itch. He may never have an itch because if he just puts the M80s in there, he'll like them because he won't have a basis for comparison. He's decided to contrast his M80s against a pair of KEFq100 which makes good sense.

I didn't think you tried multiple placement positions because if you had, you'd have noticed the qualities I described and would have made a different recommendation for Chaos.

By the way, I have 11-year old M80v2. I love them in my 4,200 cubic foot space where they are placed 9 feet apart, 6 feet away from side walls and 14 feet away from my MLP. I've tried other speakers in that room and none can do what the M80v2 does. I also have a 10x10x8 room with 2.1. In that room, a much lesser pair of bookshelves do what my M80s can't.
Posted by: exlabdriver

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 01:54 PM

I'm so glad that I am able to just listen to & enjoy the music/movie without unnecessarily analyzing every nuance of what is being produce by my equipment.

Much more enjoyable that way...

TAM
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 03:06 PM

Yes, you are wiser than I am for sure. smile

It does indeed become a problem as I've pointed out on these boards before. As my buddies have listened to my environment and have had these qualities pointed out to them, they find it difficult to enjoy what they have.

BTW, my environment is nowhere ideal but it's a far cry from Generation 1. Generation 2 was brought on by the Onk with XT32, generation 3 by moving from 8 feet away to 14 feet away from the mains, generation 4 by "treating" 70% of the wall surfaces with art and generation 5 through the replacement of the VP160v2 and EP600v2 with the VP160v4 and EP800v4.

The one quality I lack that is eating at me right now is soundstage depth. I have none to speak of. Do any of you?
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 03:23 PM

Are your L&R toed in at all?
Straight ahead works well in my room.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 03:38 PM

I tried toeing in...and out smile. The response is more "natural" pointed straight ahead.

I hear drums a few inches behind singers when they should be many feet behind. Instruments and voices are present across the entire soundstage and I can clearly point to them but they are all in 2-d...on the same plane. Not good!

I tried bringing them into the room more but that negatively affects the soundstage width and does nothing to the depth.

Here's something interesting. When I had my Bose 601s set up in the same room, I had a ton of depth and width. There were so many other problems though and I prefer the M80s by a long shot. The 601s have made terrific surround speakers though at a my good buddy's place.

Ian says I need LFRs and maybe so although I am not sold on them even though as an engineer I appreciate what he and Andrew did and I'm envious smile. I was really hoping M100s would do the trick. That's why in a previous post I said I'd love to hear from those who moved from 60s or 80s to 100s and I was hoping their feedback would be less about bass and more SPL and more about improved soundstage especially depth.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
You say he can buy something else if the M80s don't scratch the itch. He may never have an itch because if he just puts the M80s in there, he'll like them because he won't have a basis for comparison.


I suspect he would be perfectly fine with that smile

Seriously, I read the original post as "I am happy with my current system; will I be happy in this new smaller room ?", so his basis for comparison is the same system in a larger room.

I don't remember if we asked how big his current room is.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 04:22 PM

Are you saying he would be perfectly happy not having an experience that will give him an itch? smile

I was perfectly happy with my Bose 601s for 12 years. Then I made the mistake of listening to a pair of Polk bookshelves that were set up just right. That guy knew what he was doing. I got the itch that led me to my current system. smile

So if chaos was to say "Bugger off, Mojo. I don't want to get an itch.", that I can understand! smile

I looked at a post of his previous room before giving advice. He was in a 10'x19' room based on posts from 8 years ago.

BTW, I am not saying he's going to like the KEF bookshelves over the M80s in that room. It all depends what is most important for him. However, he will certainly have a different perspective regarding his two options.

Posted by: liquidchaos

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 06:59 PM

Ha, strong thread! 😁 I was in a room that was about 18ft wide by about 14ft deep before my current house. Speakers worked well there. Before that I lived in a loft, massive space....I was actually scared it was too open but the speakers worked great there. This room is substantially smaller than I've had in awhile. I'm not in the mood to spend money but many things I've read on other forums lead towards the use of smaller speakers being beneficial. I can on here to see if maybe the plugs plus some settings would make my speakers work well. I definitely am trying to put the audio experience first, but can't really afford to buy expensive replacement speakers. I can relate to the vanity of loving to look at how massive my m80s are. I prefer them without the grill so I can see all the drivers, now these small ass q100's are en route.... 😁
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 07:11 PM

Chaos, I'm glad to see you're still here man (lady?). In my mind, this post stopped being about you a long time ago.

18' x 14'? That sounds like M80 heaven. smile

I am really interested to hear what you think of the KEFs vs. the 80s. Let us know please if you can swing it.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
So if chaos was to say "Bugger off, Mojo. I don't want to get an itch.", that I can understand! smile


Originally Posted By liquidchaos
Ha, strong thread! 😁 I was in a room that was about 18ft wide by about 14ft deep before my current house. Speakers worked well there. Before that I lived in a loft, massive space....I was actually scared it was too open but the speakers wI looked at a post of his previous room before giving advice. He was in a 10'x19' room based on posts from 8 years ago.

BTW, I am not saying he's going to like the KEF bookshelves over the M80s in that room. It all depends what is most important for him. However, he will certainly have a different perspective regarding his two options.orked great there. This room is substantially smaller than I've had in awhile. I'm not in the mood to spend money but many things I've read on other forums lead towards the use of smaller speakers being beneficial. I can on here to see if maybe the plugs plus some settings would make my speakers work well. I definitely am trying to put the audio experience first, but can't really afford to buy expensive replacement speakers. I can relate to the vanity of loving to look at how massive my m80s are. I prefer them without the grill so I can see all the drivers, now these small ass q100's are en route.... 😁


No match.

The thread continues smile
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/05/18 09:46 PM

I'm waiting for Socketman to jump back in here and give me some more hell. I absolutely love it when he does that! With his kids gone, he needs another teen to scold.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/06/18 04:49 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo

The one quality I lack that is eating at me right now is soundstage depth. I have none to speak of. Do any of you?


This is why you cant have it all in the Dojo. You like farfield envelopment, but you are giving other possibilities away doing this. smile It's a preference thing like always.

To get passive front back separation needs a symmetrical room setup. Then you need diffusion on the front wall and first reflections.

You can get the soundstage to form a U shape away from you by moving your towers out away from the wall. The drawback of this is usually a thin and off mic sound in the phantom image and louder sounds in the hard panned right\left positions. It comes down to preference. It is neat to have the singer drop back onto a virtual stage.

To really do it right and have separation front to back instead of a U shaped field is with diffusion. Is this real or accurate? No. It is signal processing just like anything else -just in the acoustic domain instead of a DSP. Does it sound natural and pleasing? Yes, extremely so.

Another way of doing it is to have an active setup like LFRs that intentionally send broadband energy in different directions (and time.) When they sum back in your meat computer the effect is three dimensional shapes instead of a flat soundfield.

Putting diffusion on the front wall between the speakers and at first reflection points will give you what you are after without going to LFRs. Going to LFRs is really the ultimate way of doing this because you can have much lower frequencies forming distinct placement in the soundfield. Diffusion can only do so much that way.

Hope this helps!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/06/18 09:11 AM

"This is why you cant have it all in the Dojo."

smile

As you might remember, I used to sit in the nearfield (8 feet away from the M80s). That didn't help with depth either. Admittedly though I didn't and still don't have diffusion in between the mains or at first reflection points. Near-field listening did nothing for surround by the way because the side QS8s were a foot behind me and 11 feet away and the rears were 13 feet away. It also did nothing for soundstage width.

In my 10x10x8 room that uses your panels and with the corner speaker positioning you suggested, I hear depth but it's still not "in your face" depth. That room is special. When I want a very intimate presentation of a lady jazz singer, I go to that room and she's...you know...right there...in front of me. I can reach out and touch her without getting slapped. wink

I'll have to try what you suggested but I have to tell you, I am not holding out much hope. I've been told speakers of my generation (not just my M80v2) just couldn't do depth.

I've also been told it's far easier to get depth with smaller speakers like the M5HPs which is why I've been so interested in them. I just don't know if the M5HPs would be able to form a wide and deep soundstage if they were placed 9 feet apart and I sat 14 feet away. Ian feels they won't be enough but I don't know what that means.

I don't know how to evaluate a speaker to determine if it can give me width and depth and how it needs to be positioned in the room to achieve that. I don't know what measurements I need to look at and if I had the measurements, I likely wouldn't be able to interpret them because I don't have Andrew's meat computer smile. I'd like to learn but I don't even know where to look for educational material.

Anyway, if you are over here again, let me know. You're always welcome to stay here. And I still dream of escaping to out there but I have peeps who rely on me here and I can't just leave them.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/06/18 03:24 PM

I've found the sound floor of the room is critical to the being there/depth/realism along with overall volume matter as much as speaker placement.
Ear height vs tweeter height used to matter more too. The v4 tweeter blends extremely well.
I also read turning off any processing can help (didnt for me, games yes oddly) and or setting your AVR to a front sound stage setting.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/06/18 06:48 PM

Those are good points.

The noise floor in my room is less than 20dB C-weighted. I don't know how much less because that was the limit of the meter. I typically listen at 85dB nominal. This means my signal to noise ratio is greater than 65dB. I don't know if this is "good enough" but even if I crank it, I have no depth.

My ears are right in line with the tweets.

Whether I engage processing or not makes no difference. I don't have a front sound stage setting. I've never heard of that setting.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/06/18 08:36 PM

Did you check your polarity between the L&R? The M80 can sound pretty good even with reversed polarity.
Did you check the individual drivers for free movement, no noise/drag?
Bi-amped with a dead channel?
Loose wire?

The quality of the recording is paramount too...did you check the output settings in your playback device?
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/06/18 08:37 PM

Depth and volume aren't related/ volume isn't necessarily required to get depth.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/06/18 08:44 PM

Oh...when you said volume, I thought you meant gain. You really meant volume. smile I think I got that at 4,200 cu. ft.

No bi-amp or bi-wire. I'll check all that other stuff for the nth time but I am pretty sure that's all ok because it sounds amazing other than depth. Admittedly I've never checked for driver drag. There's no funny noise though.

As for the recordings, yeah...some of them sound like absolute junk but the good ones are majestic and give me 22 feet of soundstage in 2.1 even though I have the M80s only 9 feet apart. They are about 6 feet away from side-walls.

Do you have depth?
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/06/18 08:56 PM

I did mean gain...

I've had it lol.
"One more tweek" gets me every time. Then I start over, it is extremely satisfying to discover/hear the differences.

I currently have a sort of sudo depth. My M80's fill the room very nicely, akin to surround sound. No speakers, no localization, nice width, some depth but not "I can place the drummer 10' behind" depth atm.

I have had some amazing moments but it seems the stars have to align and I need to be in the right mood. Listening for the sake of listening doesn't work for me.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/06/18 09:11 PM

I just checked everything. Good call on the binding post torque. My room down there swings from 15C when I'm not there to 22C when I turn on the fireplace. That likely wreaks havoc with expansion and contraction of the metals.

The 11-year old M80v2 drivers move freely and there's no drag or noise. I'll tell you though my new VP160v4 drivers move marginally more freely.

No difference in depth. That EP800v4NME kicks ass and is just bloody fantastic though. I struggled to pull away from the music again. That Onk puts out too!

Ok, so good! I am not the only one who doesn't have depth according to you.

I know I sound like one of Socketman's pedantic kids on these boards but I do enjoy my music and movies. Then I snap back to reality and want depth. smile

I'm off to find me steak and Guinness.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 01:02 AM

Is it possible your crossover is to high and your subs are doing damage to your front sound stage/ depth?
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 01:05 AM

Are you nine feet from them? I missed it.

Edit. If you're 14' away and you have 6' to your side walls why are the M80's only 9' apart?
Posted by: AAAA

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 03:34 AM

I visit my brothers in Calgary. Next time Im out I can bring my audio go bag and set you up if you want.

If you cant wait you can reach out to Kurt at the Audio Room. He is very good and a whole picture kind of guy. Very acoustics aware. He will do a home setup for a fee.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By brwsaw
If you're 14' away and you have 6' to your side walls why are the M80's only 9' apart?


I have a corner fireplace on the left. If I move them farther apart, the left M80 will ignite.

I've tried them farther apart though. I find the soundstage collapses and I am left with a centre image and sounds localized to the left and right speakers.

I've tried various widths and various distances away from them. My current setup gives me the best presentation in my room. The speakers disappear and instruments appear all over the width and height of the soundstage with well-recorded material.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 09:01 AM

Originally Posted By Serenity_now
I visit my brothers in Calgary. Next time Im out I can bring my audio go bag and set you up if you want.

If you cant wait you can reach out to Kurt at the Audio Room. He is very good and a whole picture kind of guy. Very acoustics aware. He will do a home setup for a fee.


Ok. I'd rather give my business to you. You can also see what I did with your sound panels.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 09:05 AM

Originally Posted By brwsaw
Is it possible your crossover is to high and your subs are doing damage to your front sound stage/ depth?


Good thought. I've tried different crossover settings including no sub. Nothing gives me depth.

BTW, with the EP800v4, I can crossover at 150Hz and it still sounds great! I have it at 80Hz though.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 01:11 PM

Me, I'd go back to the start.
I'd temporarily remove any diffusion, bass traps, panels, etc., and listen. Especially any behind the speaker, behind your head and first reflection points.
I'd also try removing the rear feet and or double stacking the front feet (assuming factory rubber).
It's all at great risk to your current sound quality but it can be bitter sweet when it's right.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 01:12 PM

I want an 800. I know it would be chaos but I want it.
Posted by: exlabdriver

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 01:28 PM

Go for a pair, ha!

TAM
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By brwsaw
I want an 800. I know it would be chaos but I want it.


You might want an 800 but I don't know if you need it. I think a 600 is adequate for music and movies. For music alone, a 500 is adequate. Look at Slim. He has a 500 in a 10,000 cu. ft. room for music only and he is very satisfied with it.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 09:32 PM

I'm currently satisfied with my 3 missmatched Paradigm subs. They've already given me what I call tactical bass. I know the 800 will go ~ twice as deep.
When I think about what they can't do, I want better.
Its my next room I'm thinking of...thats it. Yessss...
I need to start watching for spare coin as I walk down the street lol.

I would happily settle for 2 or more ep400's. Just sayin.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 10:07 PM

Blair, you better read the other thread, man. Serenity_Now is telling me I am living a life of lies! EP800s don't help!!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 10:11 PM

Richard, you've been awfully silent the last few days, man. Come on. Let it out!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 10:12 PM

Do you see where this post has gone, Chaos? Do you see what you have done? smile
Posted by: exlabdriver

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 10:15 PM

I have a nice pair of EP 400s (fabulous for music) - but you can't have them, ha!

TAM
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 10:19 PM

When I move into my condo, I want four EP400s to make my $100 soundbar better.
Posted by: exlabdriver

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 10:31 PM

That would work...

TAM
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/07/18 10:37 PM

I am sure if I get a $25,000 power cable for my sound bar, it will sound similarly good to the digital LFRs coming out later this year.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: M80ti's small room. - 02/08/18 12:47 AM

You had to go and ruin it, lol.