ADA Noise Floor

Posted by: bman84

ADA Noise Floor - 03/07/19 09:09 AM

When testing out my ADA1000-3, connected to the pre-outs on my Denon 4500H, I could detect a very quiet hiss when no content was playing (when my ear was within a foot of the speakers).

Just curious if others have noticed this is well with their ADA's, or if my Denon 4500H is the cuplrit (weaker pre-outs and dirtier signal path vs. a proper pre-pro).

If attributable to the ADA, would the ADA1250 and ADA1500 be quieter than the ADA1000 in this regard, or would they exhibit the same quiet hiss?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/07/19 09:26 AM

Neither your Denon nor your ADA-1000 will give you a "black background". The 1250 is better in this regard than the 1000 and the 1500 better still. I've been trying to understand what noise level gives diminishing returns. When I get my 1000 and 1500, I'll be able to assess this better.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/07/19 09:34 AM

Nice, thanks! Would RCA vs XLR impact this as well? Or only for longer cable runs?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/07/19 09:44 AM

I think what you are hearing is self-generated noise from thermal and other effects inside the ADA.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/07/19 05:03 PM

I could be wrong, but I think larger ADAs have a lower noise figure because the noise figure is referenced to full power. If it was referenced to 1 Watt, you could compare one model with another. Referenced to full power, I'd have to do some math to compare. Unfortunately I haven't had coffee yet today. I have a rule that says no math, physics or chemistry before coffee.
Posted by: brendo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/07/19 07:11 PM

The mic. cable or XLR should play louder than an RCA they typically rate XLR signal to about double that of RCA on most equipment. If you have any grounding noises the XLR will also help especially with long run. Although the RCA has the same signal as a balanced. Stay away from balanced to non adapter cables, for me I have a 1\4 TRS to RCA "pro cable"{Digiflex} loves to hum as soon as connected.

The best option is shorter shielded RCA if possible and isolate different cables. Especially power and RCA, try to keep 6 or more inches from power cable proximity Basic power cables emit a lot of E.M.I. Another culprit can also be WIFI to close to say a turntable or even equipment rack. My turntable started giving a decent hum went through tidied cables couldn't figure it out. Turns out I moved the router a couple feet from the TT. Took a couple weeks to realize
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/08/19 03:23 PM

I just got my replacement ADA1000, and I think what I'm hearing is ground loop hum (~120hz, doesn't change when I change the volume on my AVR).

I tried disconnecting my subs, and the noise did not go away. I tried removing the trigger as well, without success. What else can I do?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/08/19 05:17 PM

Dang. That really sucks.

I recall you have a lot of devices like a ps3, Xbox, etc. Try disconnecting all those from the Denon and see if the problem goes away.

Try plugging the ADA into the same receptacle as the Denon.

Also make sure you're not picking up radiated noise on your RCA cables, power cables or power cords. Try wiggling those around to see if it gets louder or quieter.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/08/19 06:25 PM

So I have a Panasonic DP-UB820 4K player connected to my Denon 4500H AVR via HDMI, and then the LCR pre-outs of the 4500H connected to the ADA1000-3 via shielded RCA's. I also have a mono 3.5mm trigger running from the 4500H to the ADA1000. That's it.
Posted by: brendo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/08/19 08:47 PM

Typically cable company is responsible. When you find a ground loop. If you have a monster power with coax around try it put the cable signal in then another from the out to your cable box or T.V. Since cable isolators are somewhat harder to find these days I find that to be the easiest work around.

If you search Ground loop isolators it should give you, I think it's called Jansen transformers. Really well regarded company specializes in lots of different isolators.

Hopefully you can find the source easily
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/08/19 09:01 PM

Thanks, but I don't have cable coax hooked up to any of my gear. Or can it still mess with my household ground circuit?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/08/19 10:51 PM

If the cable ground is conducting noise, the noise can couple into the ground circuit. You'll have to systematically rule out possibilities as I described above. Also make sure the ADA power cable is fully seated in the ADA.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/09/19 05:54 AM

The Denon looks to be the culprit. If I remove the 3 RCA cables running between it and the ADA, the hum disappears. I noticed that the Denon uses a 2-prong wall plug, so no ground there, but it does have a 'SIGNAL GND' connection point at the back, which the manual states is "used to connect a ground wire for the turntable". I tried connecting a wire to that ground connection, and then touching the other end to various points on the ADA, but that didn't eliminate the hum.
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/09/19 11:25 AM

Couple of random thoughts;

- Did you have this issue previously - you mentioned hiss but not hum?

- Is it possible to check the ground at the receptacle?

- You mentioned isolating to the Denon, but have you removed all inputs (dvd player and all cables) from the Denon and checked? I would also remove the trigger and check for the hum. If you find the hum is gone, begin adding the cables back and see when/if it returns.

- is the dvd player connected to the same receptacle as the denon and amp?
- Do you have another set of RCA cables to test with? Highly unlikely, but I have experienced stranger things....
Posted by: brendo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/09/19 02:49 PM

My building has lousy grounding.
The external cable grounding on my building {water mains} had been there so long the clamp and the cable were oxidised to the max. A new clamp cost me about 10/15 bucks. Had to cut the old clamp off for the new one. Another problem with this is they have been changing all copper piping to PVC. So could lead to False ground connections.

I also added new receptacle{PS Audio} with an extra ground line to the receptacles box. For me these made a great difference, especially on my noise floor.

Sadly there's no easy fix for such issues. Only process of elimination. Sometimes multiple fixes are necessary.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/09/19 03:20 PM

"Sadly there's no easy fix for such issues. Only process of elimination. Sometimes multiple fixes are necessary."

Well said!
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 12:33 PM

Originally Posted By brendo
My building has lousy grounding.

Yes, industry learned a hard lesson when business systems installers grounded to the nearest fire sprinkler systems and that industry moved away from having the water supply heads loaded with water at all times...bad things happened man, bad things!

Originally Posted By brendo
I also added new receptacle{PS Audio} with an extra ground line to the receptacles box. For me these made a great difference, especially on my noise floor.

If you can - and certainly for new builds/construction - I generally recommend dedicated circuits with isolated grounds be receptacle. The cost at build is negligible and can be worth cost later

Originally Posted By brendo
Sadly there's no easy fix for such issues. Only process of elimination. Sometimes multiple fixes are necessary.

Agreed...but that is part of the fun isn't it? LOL
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 02:42 PM

Originally Posted By BBIBH
Originally Posted By brendo
My building has lousy grounding.

Yes, industry learned a hard lesson when business systems installers grounded to the nearest fire sprinkler systems and that industry moved away from having the water supply heads loaded with water at all times...bad things happened man, bad things!

Originally Posted By brendo
I also added new receptacle{PS Audio} with an extra ground line to the receptacles box. For me these made a great difference, especially on my noise floor.

If you can - and certainly for new builds/construction - I generally recommend dedicated circuits with isolated grounds be receptacle. The cost at build is negligible and can be worth cost later

Originally Posted By brendo
Sadly there's no easy fix for such issues. Only process of elimination. Sometimes multiple fixes are necessary.

Agreed...but that is part of the fun isn't it? LOL


I do have dual dedicated 20amp circuits for my gear. How does one isolate the grounds?

My house has fibre lines coming in (one from Rogers, and one from Bell) in place of coax. Am I correct in thinking that fibre is immune to the kinds of noise that would be causing my issue?

If I listen to the Denon itself, it seems to make a similar buzz internally. Could it be that the unit has a noisy transformer that the pre-outs are sensitive enough to pick up?
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 02:52 PM

I did also try removing all connections to the Denon. Even with only the pre-outs to the ADA connected, the buzz is still there
Posted by: brendo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 03:03 PM

Ironically enough if you check out new Axiom vids. on You Tube. There's some new releases staring Andrew.

One regarding XLR vs RCA. In the vid. he mentions how a subwoofer connected to a different outlet can lead to issues. Also why not to use a balanced to non splitter. {It just cancels the balanced connection}.

Have you tried unplugging your Sub. yet Bman?
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By BBIBH
Couple of random thoughts;

- Did you have this issue previously - you mentioned hiss but not hum?

- Is it possible to check the ground at the receptacle?

- You mentioned isolating to the Denon, but have you removed all inputs (dvd player and all cables) from the Denon and checked? I would also remove the trigger and check for the hum. If you find the hum is gone, begin adding the cables back and see when/if it returns.

- is the dvd player connected to the same receptacle as the denon and amp?
- Do you have another set of RCA cables to test with? Highly unlikely, but I have experienced stranger things....


The noise sounded different before, but I think there are a few explanations:
-I first heard it when testing the ADA with M3's (lacking a midwoofer, and less sensative vs the M5's and VP180 that I have hooked up now)
-I tested the ADA/M3s in my office, which sounds different than my basement (9x11x9 office, vs 20x13x7.5 basement)
-I only had LCR channels enabled on my Denon at the time, so I'm guessing the internal power supply didn't have to work as hard as it's working now (with full 7.2.4 enabled)

I don't have another set of cables handy, but am working to acquire some, along with a basic receptacle tester
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 03:09 PM

Originally Posted By brendo
Ironically enough if you check out new Axiom vids. on You Tube. There's some new releases staring Andrew.

One regarding XLR vs RCA. In the vid. he mentions how a subwoofer connected to a different outlet can lead to issues. Also why not to use a balanced to non splitter. {It just cancels the balanced connection}.

Have you tried unplugging your Sub. yet Bman?



Yep subs were unplugged, along with all other connections to the Denon. All that I left were the 8 sets of speaker wire connected to the Denon, three RCA's between Denon and ADA, and the remaining 3 sets of speaker wire connected to the ADA. The buzz is only coming from those 3 speakers that are connected to the ADA.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 03:47 PM

What do you hear in the three speakers connected to the ADA when you remove each RCA cable from the ADA?
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
What do you hear in the three speakers connected to the ADA when you remove each RCA cable from the ADA?


Silence
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 03:55 PM

As each cable is removed, you hear silence in its respective speaker? What about the remaining speakers?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 04:49 PM

I really wish you could just sit back and soak in your M5s. I'm taking them in right now and I got the eerie feeling that Axiom had help from alien intelligence.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 07:56 PM

I'll have to test them all out independently and see. I'm wondering if a pair of these would do the trick.

ART DTI Dual Transformer/Isolator Audio Interface https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0009GUOQA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_h9yHCbAZTGR2G
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/10/19 08:25 PM

As I remove the input on the ADA for each of the LCR channels, the buzz in each speaker disappears, and remains in the other two speakers that are still connected.

The buzz doesn't completely kill the experience, but it is noticable during quiet parts in movies.
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/12/19 01:50 PM

Do you still have the original ADA?

I would be curious to swap both in an out noting the differences
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/12/19 09:31 PM

The original ADA is bricked, sadly. The ART DTI's will be here in a day or two. Hoping they'll do the trick
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/13/19 12:19 AM

That's a nifty device. Have you tried plugging the ADA into the same (duplex?) outlet as the Denon?
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/13/19 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
That's a nifty device. Have you tried plugging the ADA into the same (duplex?) outlet as the Denon?


Yeah, no luck there. I spoke with Andrew yesterday, and he suggested I could try unplugging the signal ground wire inside the ADA (chassis would still be grounded, so no safety issue). Not sure what screwdriver will work on the ADA chassis screws though, and I remember you saying that they were self threading, so may not go back in perfectly after initial removal
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/13/19 10:31 AM

I really do feel bad for you. I wonder what's going on back at the panel to be causing this. Then again, it could be a bad connection right at the receptacle.

This is a long shot (really long) but try swapping ADA power cables.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/14/19 01:24 PM

It was the stupid RCA cables after all! Swapped out the 6ft 'high quality' RCA interconnects from PrimeCables.ca for 4ft AmazonBasics cables and bam, no more buzz.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/14/19 02:39 PM

Wow! Just wow. Is that because of better shielding, or what?
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/14/19 02:54 PM

Not sure. The PrimeCables ones were supposedly double-shielded

https://s3.amazonaws.com/shopperplus/uploads/kind/927605089bd89fa7f382fbe1f92fcec5.jpg
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/14/19 05:01 PM

They may have been badly built.
Posted by: brendo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/14/19 06:41 PM

Possibly to long.

I have some of the Prime cables as well, quite nice. If you contact them about it there is a lifetime warranty. Though 6 foot is a little long for most basic applications that don't require such length.
Last year I decided to try Blue jeans LC1 much thicker with very large connectors. Seem really good but much higher price compared to P.C. brand.

Glad it was a minor fix as opposed to major overhaul.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/14/19 07:37 PM

Way to stick with it and work out the root cause. With that out of the way, how does the whole thing sound?
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 06:10 AM

Originally Posted By brendo
Possibly to long.

I have some of the Prime cables as well, quite nice. If you contact them about it there is a lifetime warranty. Though 6 foot is a little long for most basic applications that don't require such length.
Last year I decided to try Blue jeans LC1 much thicker with very large connectors. Seem really good but much higher price compared to P.C. brand.

Glad it was a minor fix as opposed to major overhaul.


Do you notice any sounds quality improvement with the Blue Jeans LC1 cables? For 3 channels worth, LC1 are $99, vs $23 for AmazonBasics.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 06:14 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Way to stick with it and work out the root cause. With that out of the way, how does the whole thing sound?


My basement still isn't 100% done (waiting on doors) but the setup sounds awesome! I was able to watch some of Blade Runner 2049 (in Atmos) turned way up yesterday and was blown away by the level of detail and immersion.

I'm also finding that my in-wall M5's sound much better now that the tv has been wall mounted (it was previously sitting on feet, about 6" forward of the wall). At no point was it blocking line of sight between the M5s and MLP, but it was clearly interfering with the sound field in some way.
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 08:38 AM

Originally Posted By bman84
It was the stupid RCA cables after all!

Good stuff! I once had an RCA cable that the shielding detached only when the cable was bent slightly...it tested fine in all aspects, but at a certain angle the shielding detached - which is why I suggested you try replacing them.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 11:00 AM

All three cables were bad? That could mean a bad production run.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 12:05 PM

I didn't bother testing individually, but based on my previous testing, I think at least 2 of them were bad.

I ordered some Blue Jeans LC-1 from Amazon to test out.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 12:06 PM

These could be the same cables I bought from Prime Cables about a year ago. One was bad, didn't work at all. PC promply replaced it no questions, otherwise the rest of them(6) were fine.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By Adrian
These could be the same cables I bought from Prime Cables about a year ago. One was bad, didn't work at all. PC promply replaced it no questions, otherwise the rest of them(6) were fine.


They've already refunded me. Didn't even need to send them back.
Posted by: brendo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 09:34 PM

As for sound quality you probably wont be able to notice a big difference. Just a little peace of mind with big burly connectors and better length. {Axiom fam. are big advocates for letting you know cables are snake oil} They've done multiple testing's with the N.R.C. and their findings have shown no one can truly tell the difference.
Luckily majority of these companies produce so many that if anything they'll replace or refund promptly no question.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 10:16 PM

Brendo, I can't hear a difference between my 12 ga Home Depot cable and my Monster Cable with M80v2. But I can hear a difference with M5 and M100v4. Monster sounds better. You'd have to hear it to believe it.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Brendo, I can't hear a difference between my 12 ga Home Depot cable and my Monster Cable with M80v2. But I can hear a difference with M5 and M100v4. Monster sounds better. You'd have to hear it to believe it.


The bulk Home Depot speaker wire that I've seen is copper-clad aluminum, so that might explain it.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 10:33 PM

bman, I think when your TV wasn't wall-mounted, it interfered with the "early reflections" curve that Axiom designed to. This curve is responsible for image width, stability and timber. The curve is taken from 40 degrees to 80 degrees across (also 50 degrees up and down but that's not relevant here).

I've always wondered though what level of engineering goes into the on-walls and in-walls. How is the family of curves adjusted for these models? Are new curves taken? If so, how do they account for the wall?

Likely Axiom will remain guarded around these questions. Although the science and characterization methodology around the parametric curves are well-established, there are nuances to testing and interpretation, as well as extension to non-traditional speaker designs, that are company secrets.

Anyway, you have a great system there and it will bring you all a lot of enjoyment. We are extremely fortunate to be part of a minority on this planet who can enjoy high fidelity so we should be very grateful.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By bman84
Originally Posted By Mojo
Brendo, I can't hear a difference between my 12 ga Home Depot cable and my Monster Cable with M80v2. But I can hear a difference with M5 and M100v4. Monster sounds better. You'd have to hear it to believe it.


The bulk Home Depot speaker wire that I've seen is copper-clad aluminum, so that might explain it.


That may be the case now. Mine is just over 12 years old and I can attest there is no aluminum. Even if it was, why the difference between the v2 and v4? I'll tell you why. v4 is vastly superior. Let me say that again. v4 is VASTLY superior. It can't, just can't get any better except with a digital cross-over.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Originally Posted By bman84
Originally Posted By Mojo
Brendo, I can't hear a difference between my 12 ga Home Depot cable and my Monster Cable with M80v2. But I can hear a difference with M5 and M100v4. Monster sounds better. You'd have to hear it to believe it.


The bulk Home Depot speaker wire that I've seen is copper-clad aluminum, so that might explain it.


That may be the case now. Mine is just over 12 years old and I can attest there is no aluminum. Even if it was, why the difference between the v2 and v4? I'll tell you why. v4 is vastly superior. Let me say that again. v4 is VASTLY superior. It can't, just can't get any better except with a digital cross-over.


Ah ok. I bought some in 2013 and returned it as soon as I realized it was CCA. Currently using Monoprice Access 12 guage, which seems to be quality stuff.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/15/19 11:02 PM

This CCA shit just has to go!
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/16/19 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By brendo
As for sound quality you probably wont be able to notice a big difference. Just a little peace of mind with big burly connectors and better length. {Axiom fam. are big advocates for letting you know cables are snake oil} They've done multiple testing's with the N.R.C. and their findings have shown no one can truly tell the difference.
Luckily majority of these companies produce so many that if anything they'll replace or refund promptly no question.


Interesting! I was looking around for some solid, double-blind studies proving/disproving the impact of pricy interconnects.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/16/19 10:05 AM

bman, you sure are taking a keen interest in all things audio, eh? Have you always been like this or has something changed?
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/16/19 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
bman, I think when your TV wasn't wall-mounted, it interfered with the "early reflections" curve that Axiom designed to. This curve is responsible for image width, stability and timber. The curve is taken from 40 degrees to 80 degrees across (also 50 degrees up and down but that's not relevant here).

I've always wondered though what level of engineering goes into the on-walls and in-walls. How is the family of curves adjusted for these models? Are new curves taken? If so, how do they account for the wall?

Likely Axiom will remain guarded around these questions. Although the science and characterization methodology around the parametric curves are well-established, there are nuances to testing and interpretation, as well as extension to non-traditional speaker designs, that are company secrets.

Anyway, you have a great system there and it will bring you all a lot of enjoyment. We are extremely fortunate to be part of a minority on this planet who can enjoy high fidelity so we should be very grateful.


Wow, a lot of science behind this. All I know about the in-walls is that bringing the drivers just that tiny bit forward of the wall plane dramatically improves their sound. Many lesser in-walls fail to consider this in their design.
Posted by: bman84

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/16/19 10:39 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
bman, you sure are taking a keen interest in all things audio, eh? Have you always been like this or has something changed?


I've been interested in this stuff for ages, but only recently had the opportunity (and means) to spec out a serious setup.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: ADA Noise Floor - 03/16/19 11:16 AM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9dRiJUYxnHk