Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl

Posted by: pheare

Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 04:37 PM

Hi,

I am likely going to be upgrading my front sound stage from M22s and a m2 (center channel).

Thinking about M60s for left/right. Was looking at the vp150 for center, but I don't see a lot of people talking about it.

Discussion seems to be either vp160 or vp180.

the 180 is getting to be more than I want to spend, so likely looking at the 160.

Thoughts on this?
Posted by: brendo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 04:59 PM

Being you are looking at M22 the 150 should be adequate.

Although with the amount of details the center does nowadays, the 160 is more recommendable. Plus it plays awesome with the M22.

I went with 160 myself. Highly recommended if you have the space it is rather tall
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By brendo
Being you are looking at M22 the 150 should be adequate.

Although with the amount of details the center does nowadays, the 160 is more recommendable. Plus it plays awesome with the M22.

I went with 160 myself. Highly recommended if you have the space it is rather tall


I have the m22s now. But will likely be replacing them with the M60s.

I suspect the vp160 will be the way to go.
Posted by: bman84

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 08:00 PM

VP160, 100%! Centre channel handles most of your movie content. You'll want it to be as close to full-range as possible.

I'm thrilled with the sound of the 180 in my setup (chose it over the 160 due to the shorter height). Watching Smallfoot as we speak (resident 2yr old is obsessed) and the yeti-speak is reproduced flawlessly.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 08:27 PM

I had the 150v2. Stay away!

I upgraded to the 160v4. It's sitting 14 feet away in my 4200 cu ft room. Absolutely thrilled with it. I saw your room. It will work like magic.

Which version of the M22s do you have and what are you using for amplification and subbage?
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 08:50 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
I had the 150v2. Stay away!

I upgraded to the 160v4. It's sitting 14 feet away in my 4200 cu ft room. Absolutely thrilled with it. I saw your room. It will work like magic.

Which version of the M22s do you have and what are you using for amplification and subbage?


M22 v3. Currently using a Denon avr-s900h. Have a Denon avr-x3500h on the way.

Running two SVS PB-2000s.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 09:06 PM

If you are satisfied with how your M22 integrates with your SVSs, I suggest saving a few bucks and upgrading to the M22v4. The M22v4 has the new OhSoSweet tweeter and a re-worked cross-over to take advantage of advancements in Axiom's family of curves. Now I've never heard the M22v4 (only the M22Ti which I despised) but as you can see in my signature, I have the M3, M5 and M100 all v4. I heard the M3Ti and despised that as well. The M3v4 though sounds better than my old M80v2! And the M5 is twice the price but easily 4 times better than the M3v4. The M3v4 has an entirely new cross-over and the woofer doesn't rely on a mechanical filter.

Anyway, what I am trying to tell you is that Axiom made major changes to get to the amazing v4 sound. The sound is 3D...holographic. Read my reviews on the M3 and M5 product pages or my post "Out with the old and in with the new". I expect the M22 is the same. I wish I had it.

I saw you are running QS4s and QS8s. Man, am I ever glad I went to QS10HPs. Read my review on the product page. I don't have to upgrade to an Atmos receiver because they do what I call "virtual ATMOS". I was missing so much with the QS8s. I sit 11 feet away from them BTW and am doing 5.1 only because I've seen no benefit from 7.1 no matter what speakers I stick in the back.

P.S. You can trade in your M22v3 for v4.
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 09:30 PM

Thanks for all the info. Something to think about for sure re. m22 v4. Though I kind of have my heart set on going with the M60s. smile

I actually just cancelled my Denon avr-x3500h order and am thinking about going for the x4500h instead and doing a 5.2.4 config.

Thinking about it more and reading Dolby Atmos home theater installation guide, I am not so sure my space will be conducive to the overhead speakers and will likely go with atmos enabled add-on speakers.

Though not sure how well those will timbre match with the axiom speakers or how big a deal it will actually be if the timbre match isn't exact.

I would be trading in quite a few speakers - the m22, qs4 and 8s and a single m2.
Posted by: brendo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 11:03 PM

The addons are not recommended for the type of ceiling you have. They are for flat ceilings. It would be more advisable to angle something like an on wall of the side of the beams or Axioms ceiling mounts pointed towards your MLP.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 11:16 PM

On Brendo's point, I'll just throw in that you will hear a lot more detail with M5s compared to M3s. Better mid-range, lower and more linear bass, and more airy highs as well. The M5s need more power though due to the HP driver but that shouldn't be a problem for the 4500H.
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/27/19 11:45 PM

Originally Posted By brendo
The addons are not recommended for the type of ceiling you have. They are for flat ceilings. It would be more advisable to angle something like an on wall of the side of the beams or Axioms ceiling mounts pointed towards your MLP.


Hmmm. I thought for the add-ons, because my ceiling directly above them is flat, I would be okay? This would be the case for all .4 speakers. Dolby says ceiling should not be angled or vaulted, which mine isn't.

The bulkhead may 'interfere' with some of the sound reflected back down to the listening position, but not sure how much of an issue it would be.

My concern with the overhead set up is that if I mount under the bulkhead I don't have enough height (7ft). And if I mount just in front of (or behind) the bulkhead, well the bulkhead is in the way and I am still only at the 8ft minimum height.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 04:23 AM

M22 v4 virtual center?
Posted by: bman84

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 07:51 AM

Add-on modules fire sound at a point on the ceiling that would be somewhere between directly above itself and MLP. If that point isn't flat, or is too close to a wall/bulkhead, the reflected sound will be compromised.
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 10:07 AM

Originally Posted By brwsaw
M22 v4 virtual center?


I am actually now thinking of moving my m22 v3 to surround position.

I had never really considered a virtual center. It is an interesting concept as I won't be able to get my center to the same height as L/R. I might just give this a try. Have you tried a virtual center? If so, thoughts?

Can always add a center later if needed.

Is there typically a setting on the receiver to do this? Or does it just 'happen' as part of audyssey setup when it sees there is no center?

You and Mojo have now suggested the m22 v4. Is it really that much better than the v3 (they look identical, lol)?

I can't imagine this is a superior speaker to the m60? Are you thinking from a dollar perspective? Or is there some other reason one would go m22v4 over m60? Is the m60 a v4 speaker now?

Originally Posted By bman84
Add-on modules fire sound at a point on the ceiling that would be somewhere between directly above itself and MLP. If that point isn't flat, or is too close to a wall/bulkhead, the reflected sound will be compromised.



My bulkhead starts 5.5 feet from my front wall and 5 feet from my back wall. My head will be about 7.5 feet from front wall and 7 feet from back wall, pretty much under the middle of the bulkhead.

I suspect the majority of where the sound hits the ceiling would be flat (and, I guess, I could play with the angle of the 'atmos' speaker and fine tune), the reflection down would likely be partially impeded by the bulkhead.

Even so, I am thinking this would be preferable to a 7ft height overhead. And with the overheads, I cannot get the two speakers to be the same distance from the main listening position - though I suspect Audyssey would take care of that?

Bottom line is that my space has some challenges when it comes to Atmos setup, so just have to get things as good as I can, understanding it is not going to be a 'reference' setup.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 10:18 AM

v4 looks the same as previous versions but they do not sound the same. They present a deep and wide soundstage with layers of images and black (quiet) space between those images. Fidelity is also much better across all frequency bands.

If your room is for movies only, v4 isn't a necessity. In fact, I'd say stick with your v3. At my place, there is no difference between M3, M5 and M100 when watching movies. Music is a completely different story.
Posted by: bman84

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 10:45 AM

I've heard that virtual center causes speach to sound hollow. Having a 160 directly below your tv is fine. My 180 is right below my display, angled upwards a bit to point directly at MLP, and sounds great.

As for Atmos, I'd say you'll get a better result with in-ceiling, even at 7' ceiling height. Mine are just a few inches higher. They suffer from off-axis response issues below 110hz, so I set the crossover higher to compensate.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 10:56 AM

I can hear that my virtual centre sounds hollow as bman said.
Posted by: bman84

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
At my place, there is no difference between M3, M5 and M100 when watching movies. Music is a completely different story.


Is this simply because there is so much going on in a movie that your brain just doesn't listen as critically during movies vs. dedicated stereo music listening session?
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 11:26 AM

Use would be for movies/tv only. Will the 160 work well with m22s?

So much to consider. Paralysis by analysis. Maybe I will just stick with my 7.2 setup for now. But maybe replace my m2 center with a 160.


Am taking delivery of my first ever 4k tv on Tuesday (LG 65C8P).

Need to decide if I should re-order the Denon x3500h or move up to the 4500h.

Then maybe call it a day at that. For now.
Posted by: bman84

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 01:17 PM

C8 will be nice! What will you be using to play 4K discs?

What pricing are you looking at for the 3500 and 4500?

I find it good to space out upgrades so that you can fully appreciate each new part.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 01:21 PM

Bman, I think there are 2 things going on in movies that lead to no difference amongst left and right fronts: 1. No need for a stereo soundstage given the surround formats, and 2. Little content in the front left and right.

Pheare, knowing what I know now, I advise you stick with your M22s but do get the 160v4. Trust me, you will kick yourself for not upgrading earlier. Stop analyzing and trade up to the damned thing already.
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 02:01 PM

Originally Posted By bman84
C8 will be nice! What will you be using to play 4K discs?

What pricing are you looking at for the 3500 and 4500?

I find it good to space out upgrades so that you can fully appreciate each new part.


I currently rip blu ray and hd audio, re-encode video in handbrake and add to Plex. Not interested in doing the same with 4k, so may not see the absolute best in picture/sound, but I will live with that.


So, 4K content is going to be coming by way of apple tv/itunes 4k w/dolby vision and atmos enabled movies. Netflix as well.

3500h is $999.99, 4500H is $1500 or can get B-stock for $1188. I generally am fine with B-stock, but not sure the 4500H is discounted enough to make it worth the 'risk'.

I agree on spacing out, but aside from the speakers kinda need to do both tv and receiver at same time to get 4k and dobly vision. I currently have a 1080p projector, so moving down to 65 inches (from 92") is going to take some getting used to, but I am looking forward to what should be a much improved picture.

Originally Posted By Mojo

Pheare, knowing what I know now, I advise you stick with your M22s but do get the 160v4. Trust me, you will kick yourself for not upgrading earlier. Stop analyzing and trade up to the damned thing already.


Speaking of analyzing, I am now thinking about 3 m22 v4 for l/c/r and moving my v3s to surround.

I seem to recall reading some lengthily posts about how it is best to have a center identical to your l/r?

Probably add wall mounted m3s as well and give the atmos enabled speaker set-up a go. If I am not happy with that, I will try them as overhead speakers, though not sure how I would angle them down.

Though I wonder if the on-wall m2s might be better as they have the same size driver as the m22s.

If axiom will let me, would trade up my single m2, qs4s and qs8s against this.

Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 02:12 PM

I think a same centre as the left and right is over-hyped now that Axiom has an exceptionally engineered 160v4. I am currently watching Battlestar Galactica at 22 degrees off-centre and it sounds excellent.

I don't recommend an M22 over a 160 as a centre because the 160 can go lower and I've found this to be very important for voice clarity.
Posted by: bman84

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 03:11 PM

I'd grab the b-stock, and put the savings towards a good 4K disc player. If you're truly going for audio/videophile nirvana, then disc is the only way to go. No comparison in terms of bitrate, especially on the audio side (think MP3 vs FLAC). 4K UHD discs can be had for fairly cheap on Ebay (I spend $20 per movie on average).
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 03:41 PM

It is a bit of a balancing act.

I know that discs are better, but honestly I haven't used physical media in about a decade now and I am not going back.

I don't want to give up the convenience of browsing my library and then just playing something or having the metadata or not dealing with fbi warnings and forced trailers, etc, etc.

Besides, without a side by side comparison, I won't know what I am missing. And probably couldn't tell the difference, in many cases, even with a direct comparison.
Posted by: bman84

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 04:55 PM

Can't argue with the convenience factor, and I'll admit I've never seen a side-by-side in person. I'm sure 4k discs will be the last hurrah for physical media. I only hope that streaming tech improves in quality before discs completely die.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 10:51 PM

pheare, I just switched in an M5HP for my 160v4. I have 3 others over and we all like the 160 better. The M5 sounds boxy and not as natural. I hope that helps you with your centre decision.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 11:18 PM

To everyone's relief, we're back to the 160 now.
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/28/19 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
pheare, I just switched in an M5HP for my 160v4. I have 3 others over and we all like the 160 better. The M5 sounds boxy and not as natural. I hope that helps you with your centre decision.


Originally Posted By Mojo
To everyone's relief, we're back to the 160 now.


Thanks. That does help. Going to sleep on things for a couple of nights and re-evaluate mid-week.
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 10:02 AM

Originally Posted By pheare
Going to sleep on things for a couple of nights and re-evaluate mid-week.

I have owned the 150 and 160 and the 160 is much better. The amount of extra frequency range, off axis sound and sheer detail makes this a much better choice.

The size might be a limiting factor for you, depending upon your furniture and layout.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 12:59 PM

Axiom also introduced a narrower version of the 160. The "problem" with that is the sphincters are in the back so if you have it positioned closer to the front wall, then you may get boundary reinforcement. If you get the 4500H, the XT32 will compensate for that no problem!
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 02:40 PM

The ‘regular’ 160 will not be a problem to fit. Likely going with that.

Regarding atmos setup, had an epiphany yesterday when I realized I will probably be able to actually install in-ceiling speakers for the overheads. At least I hope. 2 (left side) will not be problem to get wired in.

Right side will pose more of a problem. Have a guy coming by Thursday to see if it is possible without ripping my basement ceiling apart.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 03:34 PM

Have you considered on-ceilings? You may also be able to run the wires under your carpet and up a support pillar.
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 04:04 PM

You mean a like a bookshelf mounted on the ceiling or is there such a beast as an in-ceiling like speaker that mounts on the ceiling? I tried looking for such a thing a few days ago without any luck.

Either way, the problem side has no support posts.

And carpet. Oh boy. We are redoing the flooring in the entire house to a vinyl plank. Wasn’t thinking clearly and I did not veto the planking in the theater room.

I have a feeling that telling my wife that we need carpet in there is not going to be the best conversation we’ve ever had.

Wonder if I could get away with some throw rugs.
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 04:10 PM

Originally Posted By pheare
You mean a like a bookshelf mounted on the ceiling or is there such a beast as an in-ceiling like speaker that mounts on the ceiling? I tried looking for such a thing a few days ago without any luck.

Axiom makes "On wall" speakers, if that is what you mean - https://www.axiomaudio.com/in-wall-on-wall-speakers

Fancy On wall M80, or mounted to your ceiling? LOL
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 04:37 PM

Phuk no, dude. You do NOT want wood or vinyl in there. You will hate yourself and want to beat your face in with your future 160. You may also end up punting your missus. If you put anything but carpet in there, you'll want to torch your house!

Carpet is the best acoustically and thermally. I just went through this with a lady friend of mine who just can't thank me enough for steering her away from wood to carpet. You can bring your missus over to my place and let her scrunch the luxury of the finest Berber and under-lay betwixt her toes and marvel at the audio bliss I enjoy all thanks to my carpet, v4 and XT32.

As for on-ceilings, like BBIBH said, just use on-walls.
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 05:09 PM

Originally Posted By BBIBH

Axiom makes "On wall" speakers, if that is what you mean - https://www.axiomaudio.com/in-wall-on-wall-speakers

Fancy On wall M80, or mounted to your ceiling? LOL


Originally Posted By Mojo
Phuk no, dude. You do NOT want wood or vinyl in there.

As for on-ceilings, like BBIBH said, just use on-walls.


Point taken. Though I will counter you and say phukt carpet in the rest of the house. All the crap that accumulates in carpet is disgusting.

I don’t see how I’d mount the on-walls on the ceiling. They only have the ‘hanging’ mount, which would not work on a ceiling. Nor do they work with the full metal ceiling or wall mounts. I guess you could try rig something, but they would look strange up there.

I’m confident my guy will be able to wire the ‘difficult’ row. Time will tell.
Posted by: brendo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 05:13 PM

Axiom also has a full metal roof bracket.
Might be a good option for aiming the overheads directly at your MLP.
I use a set of the regular FMB for my front heights. Great quality brackets actually made for Axioms.
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 05:14 PM

And, how the heck does one scrunch Berber between one’s toes?
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By brendo
Axiom also has a full metal roof bracket.
Might be a good option for aiming the overheads directly at your MLP.
I use a set of the regular FMB for my front heights. Great quality brackets actually made for Axioms.


I have the ceiling ones for my qs8s and the regular ones for my outdoor m3s. Neither will work with the on walls. The on walls do not have the screw/bolt hole in the back of speaker. The ceiling ones also do not work with a bookshelf other than a m2 or m22 (mounted in a horizontal position).
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 05:58 PM

I know I've seen wall-mounts on the ceiling in the Wall of Fame. I don't know how that was done.

I do admit it takes agility and skill to scrunch carpet between one's toes. If your missus has sausage toes, she won't be able to enjoy the scrunching pleasure of my beautiful Balencia Berber.

As for crap in my berber, the centipedes gobble it all up and get so full they burst. The spiders then come along and clean up the centipedes. Finally, the ants come in and haul the spiders out to their nests. 10 years and 2 months later, the berber in my Axiom Area of Acoustic Amusement looks as good as new!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 06:09 PM

Yeah...the on-walls only have the power bracket. I bet though that power bracket could support the speaker for ceiling mounting. The fit onto that bracket is pretty tight.
Posted by: pheare

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 06:57 PM

Given the bracket attaches high up on the speaker, I wouldn’t trust it on the ceiling. If it attached in the middle, then perhaps.

It is going to be moot. I am putting my faith in being able to wire in all 4 in-ceiling speakers.

I am happy that you and so many insects enjoy your berber. smile
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 07:36 PM

There's one other center speaker configuration you might want to consider.

I laid two M5HPs horizontally so their HP woofers were adjacent to each other. Then I laid the VP160 on top. In total I had four woofers, three midranges and 3 tweeters. They were all wired in parallel and powered by a channel off the ADA-1500. Then I re-calibrated my system. Booyah! I love the 160 and 180 but this...this is so freakin' amazing!
Posted by: bman84

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/29/19 09:08 PM

Pics or it didn't happen!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/30/19 01:11 AM

Are you envious, bman? Booyah!

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1--Wv1h6Yf2KEJPQV8lNXn5hvY31K02tK
Posted by: bman84

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 04/30/19 08:21 AM

Diabolical! Now you need to watch Transformers.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Seems no one is suggesting the vp150 center chanl - 05/02/19 09:48 AM

Well, pheare? What are you gonna do, dude?