I am currently upgraded/changing up my home theatre in the great room. The entire space is 26’ wide and 42’ long. The 60” TV is centered at the long end. The room is divided into three sections (although continuous) with the family room in front of the tv, dining area in the center and the kitchen at the other end. Much of the time we sit in the dining area to watch a movie during dinner.

Currently we have a 2300 Denon, VP150, M22 on-wall’s, QS8’s on the sides and a SVS PB12 Plus/2. I have a Denon 4500 coming in next week and am planning on replacing the M22 on-wall’s with M5HP’s. Although I have M60’s, I have no place for floor standing speakers. Because of windows to the left and right of the TV cabinet, the fronts will be at a distance of almost 9’ away on both sides. My plan was to position M5HP’s on top of the counter height cabinet on each side of the room angled in. My thought is that I need to the extra loudness to carry into the dining area. Right now I am maxing out the volume in my current setup which is barely right when sitting in the family room. Do the M5HP’s sound like the right solution to get louder? Quiet dialogue can be difficult to hear in the dining area unless everyone stays really quiet.

The other upgrade I want to do is for the center. Sounds like the VP160 is very popular, but I wonder if the VP180 would make much of a difference in carrying sound into the greater room? And then should I get the HP version in either one? Will I need a separate amp to drive a HP? The center is in a cabinet which I will have to modify to fit the bigger speakers regardless.

thanks!

Are you using this set-up for movies only or also for music? What sources are you using for movies and music?

Some music, but mostly for movie experience streamed from Apple TV or local hard drive. I have no interest in messing with physical media anymore. Music is from iTunes Music Match.

The M5 is the best bookshelf choice you have. It's not as sensitive as the M3v4 and M22v4 but is higher fidelity than the M3 and has better bass response than the M22 (even when crossed to a sub). I've never heard the M22v4 but I'd expect the M5 to have better highs too because the mid is crossed lower on the M5.

The relatively low sensitivity of the M5 demands high power particularly for music. The extra 30W of power from the 4500 is a drop in the bucket for your application. To get 102dB peaks when you're in the dining room, you will need to pair the M5s with an ADA-1500.

I love my 160v4 but I'm also only 13 feet away compared to your 20+ feet. At the peak levels you need, a 180 is more appropriate. If you cross it at 80Hz, I expect you won't need the HP drivers. I do expect you to need a third ADA-1500 channel to drive whatever center you decide on.

I strongly urge you to trade in your QS8 for QS10. You can drive them off the Denon.

Wow, this all started with my trying to clean up the master bedroom by replacing the M2's and on-wall center with in-ceilings & in-walls to make my wife happy. Well, actually the thought process started with my M-Audio computer speakers going bad and thinking the M2's would ge a good replacement. I could just put my under powered Denon from the family room in my office and replace it with the x4500h. Done deal, right?

I get where you're going but it seems it may be overkill for my needs -- especially coming from what I have now. I get that the M5HP's need a separate amp, but not the 1000, but the 1500? And not one amp sharing the 3 fronts, but two separate 1500 amps??

I'm not an audiophile and any knowledge I learned about 12 - 15 years ago when I setup my home theatre is lost to me now. So, I'm pushing back here a bit more on instinct.

Why not a VP160 (non HP as you suggest) and a single 3 channel ADA-1000? Wouldn't that alone be a significant upgrade to what I have now?

I was suggesting a single 1500 with three channels.

The advice I've given you is based on my in-house "testing" of M100s, M3s, M5s, M50s, 160, EP800 and QS10s - all v4. Also ADA-1000 and ADA-1500. I upgraded from M80, VP150, EP600 and QS8 - all v2. I've written extensively about the v4 and love them all!

I am in a 4,200 cu. ft. space with the fronts spaced 12 feet apart and I sit 13 feet away. In 2.1 using Spotify Premium or Tidal HD over my Chromecast Video (HDMI), my Onk is not good enough. With Netflix via my no-so-smart TV, my Onk is barely good enough. My Onk is more than adequate with Blu-Rays via my PS3.

There is of course no problem with you trying out just the new Denon to see if you will be satisfied. I am telling you though that 30 additional Watts is absolutely nothing given your sitting distances. You'll also be moving from M22s to M5s; the M5s are slightly less sensitive.

With regard to ADA-1000 vs. ADA-1500, the ADA-1000 in 2.1-channel is no better than my Onk when using the M5s. Multi-channel is of course a different story because the ADA can provide gobs (375W) of peak power to all channels whereas my Onk completely chokes. My Onk's power output is similar (and may be better) than the 4500.

So try just the 4500 and go from there.

P.S. When everyone was saying gobs of amp power are needed, I thought they didn't know what they were talking about. After all, my Onk never shut down so why would I need an external amp? It wasn't until I got the ADAs and started listening more critically, and took measurements to confirm, that I realized my Onk was compressing with high quality music. Most receivers employ dynamic compression to prevent shut-downs and distortion. Unfortunately the compression also reduces the peaks and that is just not as satisfying as listening to the full signal. The ADAs do not compress; they just gracefully temporarily turn off that channel's output letting you know their limit is being exceeded.

I find the ADA-1000 is a great choice with M5s if you are sitting 8 to 10 feet away in a small to medium-sized room. The 1000 is also a great choice with higher sensitivity speakers like the M100 for greater listening distances.

Ok gotcha. I read your original post wrong in regards to 3 channels vs a second amp . . . Glad we cleared that up :-)

I spoke with Debbie this morning. After reading your posts and speaking with her, I'm coming away with M5HP x2, VP160 (HP to match), existing QS8's, and two more QS8's for rears in the dining area. I'm leaning towards splitting the difference in powering the front speakers with a 3 channel ADA 1250. Although now that i am looking at the pricing again, I might just as well get the ADA 1500 since the big price jump really happens between the lower models.

My wife is not too keen on getting too loud, so Debbie suggested staying with the QS8's. The wife and price factor makes the amp choice difficult here too. The pricing says to me its either the 1000 or 1500. The 1500 is just not that much more than the 1250. But the wife may not let me take advantage of the 1500 often enough.

Perhaps a 2nd set of speakers for the dinning room when you want to fill the space. When listening up close for music or movie (turn off the extra speakers).
Just a thought.

I had considered that, but that would entail bringing fronts and centers forward. And that's probably getting a little more complex than I would like. Plus we are not planning on staying in this house so I don't want to customize too much.

The QS10 can certainly go louder than the QS8 but that's not why I suggested it. The QS10 has higher fidelity and greater dispersion. It's a more expansive, fulfilling listening experience. It could be your wife is objecting to the not-so-good sound of the QS8.

One other thought. It's quite possible your wife is objecting to distortion from your Denon that may not be obvious until you wire in the 1500. You'd be surprised how happy your ears-brain are with high sound pressure when it's clean.

The 1500 is more costly mostly because the toroidal transformer doubles as a luxury cruise liner anchor and the capacitor bank is large enough to power Doc Emmett's Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor.

Remember you can trade in your current gear to offset your cost.

Lol, ok, I will try that reasoning out on my wife. I'm not sure if she will buy the not-so-good sound or possible distortion, but the talk about the toroidal transformer may just do the trick! She is an engineer after all.

Maybe I will do QS10's in the rear dining area and leave the QS8's on the sides in the living room area.

And you don't have to remind me about trading in equipment. I'm really good at justifying expenses to myself :-D But, I will hit you up when I need help convincing myself that I need omnidirectionals!

Well then...if your wife is an engineer, she'll understand if you tell her the 1500 can source 106 peak Volts and 42 peak Amps. That's 6 Horsepower. That's like...six times more than a moped at the same cost as a moped! LOL!

I went from a Crest Audio power Amp. 450 Watt x 2 to a ADA 1250 x 3. I have the M80s and VP160. When I first hooked my M80s to an external power Amp. the difference was noticeable immediately. Much larger and cleaner. I noticed parts of songs that more or less was muffled at moderate volumes.

At the time I was using a Teac Pro A.V.R. made by Onkyo Integra that had a Toroidal transformer."{100 watts x 7}" The difference was so great as soon as I added external power. I decided it was a must for me personally.

Mojo,
I know you're sold on the 1500 but I have a feeling most listen at a more reasonable level ... I mean most people don't don ear plugs before doing their critical listening

My suggestion of 2nd pair of speakers was not for movies but just to fill the cavernous space at a reasonable level ... for background music and such. I get the feeling that is not the application being discussed here ...

Heh heh...good one, Rich. Agreed the 1500 sounds excessive but not at 21 feet away with M5s. If he went with M100s, his 4500 would be adequate.

The M5s need four times as much power as the M100s to develop the same sound pressure level. Also, the M100s can be used without a sub at those high pressures whereas the M5s need a sub or they start to sound like a Basset Hound in a dryer.

BTW, what the vast majority of us needs is a 4 Watt per channel amp. That's it! But it needs to have 1024 Watts per channel dynamic capability.

Yeah ... well one needs to consider the room and the application. I get the feeling this area is more of a typical living space. So less emphasis on dynamics & imagining and more about just hearing the movie dialog and getting a sense of space. Just a guess.

I agree with 4 Watts/channel ... but you'll probably be ok with 128W of dynamics in that case (per channel, all channels driven)

The best reference I have is Renee Alstead's Hit the Road Jack on Tidal HD. I measured the quietest bits of that tune at 82dBC. The peaks are 103dBC and it could be that my meter is not capturing the true peaks. That's a whopping 21dB of macro-dynamics.

At my listening distance with the M5s, I need 4W to reproduce that 82dBC and 1024W to reproduce the 103dBC peaks.

The ADA-1000 can do it with the M3, M50 and M100. It can't do it with the M5. My Onk can do it with all speakers but it's not as clean as the ADAs (up to the 1000's limit). The ADA-1500 can do it cleanly with all and then a bunch more!

The M3 BTW struggles with that level above but the M5, M50 and M100 sound great.

This was definitely a consideration, but time is of value too. Taking the time to figure out how to extend the fronts & center to the other room seems too much. Plus there's still the expense of buying more speakers. Easier to just crank out more power from the existing.

On point.

but Mojo does get me excited ;-)

Check out the 2nd zone for your Denon 4500

I like it when I do that.

Ok, play that recording a bit lower ... the 15db of dynamic headroom Ian quotes seems like a pretty good trade-off ... no need to go totally insane (unless one wants to and can afford it).

Mojo,
Just thought of something ... we are talking about 4W at average listening level ... not quietest passage ... your not playing fair with your headroom numbers!!! Haven't ever run for office have you??

LOL! I'm not intentionally trying to snow anyone. I am incapable of doing that because I have an iron ring and took an oath.

I need 4W to hear the quietest passage at 82dBC at my MLP and feel excited about it. Now you may be happy with listening to that quiet passage at 76dBC in which case you'll be happy with 128W peaks.

Don't you love how transparent I am with my numbers so we can discuss them intelligently?

hmmm ... your quite is not very quite is it ...

It's a great question, eh? How loud is your quiet? LOL!

The 1500 can develop 2.3 times the RMS voltage of my Onk. That's 5.5 times the power. More importantly, it can source more than 10 times the peak power of my Onk. That's enough current to arc weld!

Like

Blair, I was thinking of setting up my living room with floor seating, Japanese style, but I'd have to lay the M100s horizontally. Do you think the family of curves allows for that?

Ok, currently the setup is going like this:

Denon x4500h
ADA 1000 3 channel
V160 HP
M5HP x2
Big SVS sub
QS8's x4 for sides & rears

I'm considering adding 2 pairs of ceiling M3's for Atmos. The ADA will power the fronts and center leaving the surrounds to the Denon. Can the Denon also handle the ceiling speakers too? What about another set of sides as well? Since we frequently watch movies in the dining areas (behind the normal living room seating) I though an extra set of sides would make the experience better.

Was also considering replacing the QS8's with on wall M3's to match. I currently only have one pair of the QS8's (2nd pair on order).

Yep, Denon could handle that. I'm running 8 M3s off mine currently (4 surrounds + 4 Atmos). 4500 has processing for 11 channels, and amplification for 9.

Great! good to know.

Ok, here's what I'm considering now.

Denon x4500h
ADA 1000 3 channel
V160 HP
M5HP x2
Big SVS sub
M22 on wall's for sides (because of refurbished deal)
M2 on wall's for rears (because M3's are too tall to fit on 12" ceiling beam)
M3 in ceilings x4

Since price would not be an issue, why not go with M22's for the sides?

M3 on-wall's for the rear would not be visually appealing dropping below the beam so I'm thinking M2 on-wall's. Is this a big deal in sound? Would in-ceiling M3's for rears be better than on-wall M2's? I hear that rears are the most insignificant speakers in the setup so maybe its not so bad a place to compromise . . .

I know Debbie told you to go 160HP but I strenuously object and recommend you go with a 180 non HP. You're in a big room, 20 ft MLP and the 160's single mid will strenuously object along with me.

Thinking more about it, M22s for the sides make more sense than M3s. Surround effects are all about middle to high mids and low highs where the M22s excel. They are also more sensitive.

On-wall is always better than in-ceiling for the rears.

Agree! The ability to pull twice the power from the ADA helps too.

Well, the main MLP is 11 - 12'. The secondary MLP is 20' when watching from the dining room. I just wanted something loud enough to project to the secondary position, not necessarily prioritize it. Plus, I just ordered new cabinet doors to accommodate the larger VP160 size center -- $600.

Well OK then. It sure will be better than your 150!

Here's the room(s) with the pending setup.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UoG2XGu8mikU2yLf6

Given the room(s) constraints, how do the speaker locations look?

Looks good! My only suggestion would be to use the same speakers for side surrounds as you do for the rears. If the M2 is the only thing that fits in both locations, then so be it. You don't want an audio object to sound different as it moves from side to back.

I didn’t label them, but there are four in-ceiling M3’s n the ceiling. Wouldn’t it then make more sense to make the sides on-wall M3’s to match.? The rears would just be restricted to M2 on-walls because of space restraints.

You could do that too. My thinking is that you'd be more likely to have situations in movies where sound pans from rear to side than side to top. I could be splitting hairs at this point though.

You have to use the scientific method here, mmmmk? Make a hypothesis, test it and if your hypothesis is correct, you're good to go. If not, buy more speakers, drill more holes and test some more. Keep doing that until satisfied. You'll sleep better at night knowing you followed the scientific method.

Says the man who's nearly run out of room in his signature.. lol...

I did, I did run out of room.

For me, it wasn't a case of not being satisfied with the M5s but an insane case of curiosity. I am still very curious about M22v4.

Mojo ... Seams like you need to take off a week and head up to Dwight. Once there, barricade your self in their listening room and refuse to leave till you have evaluated every speaker they make ...

I almost went with the M22 originally and still wonder about them myself.

Hah... I bet Ian and Andrew think about going to Mojo's for listening sessions since he has a wider range of Axiom speakers readily available.

I would be tempted to put the mains closer to the TV, ie inside the windows rather than outside. That would also make it easier to position them far enough out that the front edge of the speaker is not behind the front edge of the cabinet/bench below.

Two main reasons for suggesting this:

- putting the M5's in the corners means they are going to be >20 feet apart at a 10-12 foot listening distance... definitely too wide for a stereo rig but maybe the center channel would fill the "hole", not sure

- M5HP's have a small bass bump - adding more reinforcement from corner location might make the room hard to tune... I would keep those corners free for your hypothetical future bass traps

EDIT - now I get it... the black circles are the ceiling mounted M3's, right ? Nice...

Yes, black circles are the celing M3's.

I don't like the fronts being so far apart either, but there is no room to the immediate sides of the tv unless I mounted them to the cabinet or set them on top of the window seats. Unfortunately that does not pass the WFA. I used to have M60's in front of the window seats but that was pretty inconvenient.

You do bring up an interested point, however. I wonder if a VP180 would be a better choice considering the distance between the fronts? Bah, then I'd have to redo the cabinet doors again . . .

Well, if I wait a few months it might seem a trivial expense after distancing myself from this home theatre remodel . . .

All I originally set out to do is remove the M2's from the master bedroom (they were mounted as fronts) and move them to my computer. Install M3 ceilings in there place. Then move the family room AVR to my office and buy a new AVR for the family room.

oh, well . . .

Yeah, that slippery slope is a real problem. All I planned to do was add a subwoofer to my M2ti's to get better sound when playing DVDs on my 27" CRT TV...

I gather you have the room and most of the equipment already, so you might be able to put up a [TEMPORARY] sign and do some testing, moving the mains to different positions on the window benches to see if you get a hole. I wouldn't put the mains that far apart in a stereo system but I don't remember ever trying that with a center channel so there may not be a problem.

There won't be a problem with the mains that far apart for movies. 2.1 music is a different story. It's not the width that will kill the holography but rather the lack of distance from the front wall. Expect bass issues also but EQ will fix that.

You need to sell that home and start over. Punt the wifey too. Just kidding...don't sell the home.

Ian and Andrew both think I need treatment. They won't come within 100 miles of me. I bet Ian goes home and tells Amie "You won't believe what that freak Mojo did today!"

Well, maybe I'm ready to move then and design a whole new theatre from scratch.

We rarely just listen to music from this system, so I suppose we'll be ok movies being the main purpose.

Wahahahahaha...all this started with wanting to move a pair of M2s! You really are an audiophile.

Ok, as long as we’re spending money here, how does my current sub, the AVS PB12 Plus/2 compare to Axioms? I’ll admit I’ve probably never set it up right since It can get very over the top.

I love my 800v4 (see my review on the product page) but seriously, that is one great sub you've got there!

My review here:

https://www.axiomaudio.com/reviews/index/list/product/64/

I doubt that ... Ian seems to be very passionate about what they do and what better boost then to get a costumer who is as enthusiastic about the subject and the resulting products that they worked so hard to create.

Rich, I hate them both. I spend way too much time listening to their speakers. I can't wait to move into a tiny house where I won't have any room for their Family of Curves and other fancy gimmicks.

I look forward to reading about your trip down the slippery slope of high quality headphones.

I wouldn't have headphones either. I'd just listen to the wildlife and prance merrily in a swaying field of poppies.

Ok, the speakers came in last week and as I'm setting things up I'm wondering how effective the rear surround speakers are going to be. There is no wall to place them on, rather just a ceiling beam. So they will not be at the suggested 2' above ear height, but basically at ceiling height (although front facing). The on-wall M2's will be mounted on the beam.

From what I've read, the rear surrounds will loose their effectiveness at this height because they will just blend with the Atmos ceiling speakers without that height separation. It's really not a cost issue because the only difference is the cost of M2's, but it will be a lot of work to drill and run wire through a large beam and ascetically its going to hurt things -- WAF too.

So, considering the possible diminished returns of having rear surrounds close to ceiling height, should I just stick with 5.1.4?

Rear surrounds have never done anything for me (and I've tried a few different speakers) but at least one person on here (bman) finds them useful.

Agree, you're best to stick with 5.1.4 here.