Other than a slightly lower frequency response what is the major difference between the two subs?

It's not slightly lower frequency response. The 600 goes as low as the 800 - 12Hz in room. The Axiom website is not updated to reflect this. I am looking at upgrading my dual 500s flanking my actives. The 500 is indeed very good though.

i have the 500 on order and I'm going to test in my room but I may upgrade to the 600 if it is a big enough difference. And Mojo what is the LFR 1500 you have coming on your signature? Is Axiom working on a new active?

I'm sure they are working on a new active. Maybe though they won't release it for another 5 years until they've deployed enough of the LFR1100.

I'd like to see more drivers on the outboard side for more dispersion. So I've dubbed it the LFR1500 for two more tweeters and two more mid-woofers. Of course I'm solutioning and my solution may be wrong. They'd have to make significant cabinet changes to make that happen - it's not "just" trying to integrate the new drivers into the target response. So they'd have to do new CFD modelling and likely iterate their acoustical modeling to an ideal solution. A new DSP box would also be needed. We could lose Ian in the process because integrating 4 more drivers into an 11-driver, 4-spincter system could prove to be too much for his brain processing capacity and end up blowing brain synapses.

How will you know if the 600 offers a significant difference in your room compared to the 500?

You may be better off with 2 500's, verse one 600. It depends on your room.

I have two 500's in my HT, and prefer this over a single 600. But - my 600 is an older version that is a ported model, where the 500s are sealed. Sealed subs have a very different sound than ported. I kinda prefer the ported 600 over the sealed 500's for music.

What Michael says about two vs. one is true if you care to have good bass at more than just your MLP or if you just can't position a single sub to get good response.

Recognize however that any number of 500s cannot go as low as a single 600.

I had the 600v2 with the gaping maw of a port. I just could not stand it. It's possible that it's OK in other rooms than mine.

I will see how it sounds and fills the room mainly at my MLP. If it's lacking in lower frequencies I will step up to the 600 or possibly 2x600s if I also need more sound volume. I have been thinking over the actives but my wife may commit homicide if I start spending what I would like to to build the HT so I may have to compromise a little with what I get.

I've been considering upgrading my twin 350s to 500s

I'll tell you right now a single 500 won't do it for you. Neither will duals. You have a monster space to pressurize.

You will love the bass from the sealed Axiom subs though. I do like how you are approaching the problem. It will give you an opportunity to learn and appreciate what you will grow into.

Stick with the Paradigm towers, get a 160v4, QS10v4 and a 500. Forget the 180 - save some money.

That's how I started upgrading my M80v2 system. Once I got the sealed sub and ditched the 600v2, I witnessed how good Axiom had become so I had to try the 160v4 and ditch my 150v2. Andrew did such an awesome job on the 160v4, I knew I had to get rid of my QS8v2 and upgrade to QS10HP. Those were so awesome and the whole thing was so addictive I got M3, M2, M2OW, M50, M100, active LFR1100 and two 500s. LOL!

The difference between the 500 and 600 is more felt then heard. I have a 500 in the upstairs HT and it’s plenty for that 18x18 space. Most content just does not drop low enough to hit below the 500’s 18Hz ... There is another advantage to the 500, it’s low enough to 1) be hidden next to or behind a couch and 2) low enough not to block the screen if in front.

For the felt part I’ve experimented with a Clark synthesis platinum transducer attached to the underside of the couch. Talk about amping up the experience ... it puts explosions, rockets, and even the whoop,whoop of a chopper Into the jump out of you seat realm. You’ll feel that 16hz organ fundamental..

Like everyone else I’d go with 2 500s over a 600 any day for room smoothing. When designing the main HT Ian convinced me to go with 4 600s over 2 800 for that very reason. Same frequency response, better room acoustics, with only a 3db SPL hit. Balancing the levels with the LFRs puts the sub gain knob below the half way mark. No problem filling the rooms 16x21x10 space. Now, like Mojo said, your rooom may require more SPLs

Note on the couch transducer ... my wife didn’t like it for the very reason I did ... it literally made her jump when I was getting deeper into the movies intensity.

The problem was if she was snuggling with me, her jump made me jump.

Just an FYI if you’re thinking about it.

Rich, Canes has 3 times plus the volume you do.

The 800 in my 4200 cu.ft. space adds a depth and fill the twin 500s can't satisfy even for music. But the twin 500s add even more dimensionality and texture to the bass than the 800 alone can.

Four 600s certainly is better than two 800s. I don't think there's an SPL hit from a system perspective.

Canes, you should know that with my actives, all I hear is music and movies at any volume. I dont hear speakers. No other Axiom can do that. Not even the M100.

Well, at some point money becomes an issue ... 4 800, 6 600, 8 500, more? .A mix ... What would you suggest ...

Think it’s an experiment over a long period of time unless $8 to $12k with some heavy discounts fits your budget.

Money's no object. Its Cane's miney; not mine.

I originally suggested two EP800 subs flanking each active LFR1100, and four EP800 for the .1 channel - two up front and two behind. But 600s would work just fine now that I have confirmation they go to 12 Hz.

The .1 600s can also be put into "double bass" mode when listening in 2 channel. That's what I do with my 800. During movies though, it just handles the .1.

If you set up actives sans subs they may add enough to the low end to stand in for a pair of subs. It’s one of the setups I’m going to try as that way I get all 4 subs working with all the channels instead of 4 with the front and only 2 for the rest.

I think our rooms are too big for those puny HP drivers. I tried. The flanking 500s fill a big gap.

BTW Rich, I simulated the height and depth of a 600 flanking the inside of an active. I used twin M2s on top of a 500. I placed them flush with the front of the 500 and also flush with the back to simulate the depth. Then I played this tune. At a minute in, two drumsticks come in. With the simulated 600, the sticks lose air. No question about it. They become duller. To make sure I wasn't hearing things, I had my bud move them while I was listening.

What do I do now? I want 600s.

https://open.spotify.com/track/2AHaMdixIVlMfcme6Ww4Yt?si=sB-8-v4EQBy8kMLP87zejQ







Just look at those M2 bookshelves though. Damn! Walnut espresso. And they sound absolutely sublime even in my 4200 cu ft space from 12 feet away.

I’m fairly certain that the LFRs don’t need the 600s off the DSPs. So, I’m going to lay one one it’s side mid front and the others standing upright in the middle of each wall. Sub1 will drive front and rear. Sub2 will drive the sides. So you can do the same ...

P.S. you can also keep the 500s and trade in the 800 for 2 600 ...

Good thought on the 800 but both drivers are signed by the Axiom Kingpins and I have the gut punch/nad tickler artwork on my linear/boost switch. Plus Ian himself used that same 800 in the chamber to invent the gut punch/nad tickler mode. That is a very unique sub. The only one of it's kind. Every time I go by it, I run my trembling fingers over its plump dust caps.

What do you mean by sub1 will drive front and rear and sub2 the sides?

Mojo - I am beginning to think you are nuts.

I have my single, ported EP600 in my great room. Casual TV watching and mostly music during the day when I'm fussing aroung the house. This room is 26X32, has 10' walls, a loft above with a vaulted ceiling over that. 22' to the ridge peak. The 600 fills the room extremely well, and the volume knob is roughly 50%. I have it crossed at 60, because I have great R/L mains with 8" drivers. The ported 600 just sounds softer, more musical than the non-ported 500's do. The 500's are tighter, more presice, and also less musical to my ears. They sound friggin awesome in my HT though, but I only watch movies in this room.

Sub 1 & 2 off the prepro

I’m sure if you ask nicely they will sign your 600s

LOL! You just figured that out?

When I first got my 800v4, it was a game-changer. It totally filled my 4200 cu ft room and still does. In fact, I was telling folks its good to 15,000 cubic feet. It shakes the whole house and attached garage. And its smooth and transparent for music.

But I had to go further and try 500s off my active DSPs. As I reported after I dialed everything in, I got additional 3D texturing to my bass. It's not subtle. It's so damned good!

I am glad to hear you're satisfied with your ported 600. As for mine, Axiom tried everything including Tom Cumberland calling me on a Saturday when he should have been fishing and poor Ian flying across the country with a new amp and so did I including stuffing pillows in its maw. I won't say more because you like it and that is all that counts.

No complaints with v4 though. Audio Nirvana!

Beginning to think?

I see. I was confused because I've been thinking of hanging subs off my QS10s. No, really!

I am not a fanatic. Consider I've been telling folks like Rebulx to get M2s instead of M100s because he simply doesn't have the right space.

Too late. I just ordered a 180HP today.

Might pick up the qs10s during the sale this month too.

Why not pick up a few 600s too?

I’m debating picking up 100s or waiting until next year to do the actives. I’m assuming the actives work best having their own 5 channel amp.

Each active is supposed to have its own 5-channel amp.

Why not pick up the 100s now, enjoy them and trade them in next year for the actives? You get very good trade-in. They'll hardly lose anything in a year.

I've got twelve 600s and two 125s in my cart. I'm gonna do it!

I have to admit two things, First. Mojo is Crazy, no doubt about it! Second he has proven to me at least, that he is usually correct. If I would of followed Mojo's advice from the VERY beginning I would of saved myself a lot of time. I am now enjoying my new M100s and EP600. Lesson learned. I'm not kidding either, from the very start Mojo said M2ow or M3ow's and my dumb ass orders an M80ow plus M5HP ows. I am very much enjoying these M100s and LOVE the EP600! I just have to figure out the surround and amp now as my Yammie can't handle this many drivers!

That might be the way I go, Mojo. I'm not sure how the new 180 will sound with the Studio 80s. I may end up going that route before the end of the month.

Unlike Rebulx's room, the M100s will shine in yours.

Looking for some input on going with M2'S or M3's for on wall reference speakers.
RJ

Hey RJ. Go for M3s if you're not using subs. The M3s sound like your N3. The M2s sound like the N2...which I think you didn't like, right?

I can attest to the M100 shining in any room you place them in!!!

With EQ in my basement, the M100s were the highest fidelity I ever heard. The actives are total suspension of disbelief with no EQ required.

Mojo, with the actives having their own dedicated 5 channel amp is a high powered receiver/power amp necessary for the rest of the channels?

It depends on a few variables.

My mid-level, circa-2012 Onk is capable of producing about 240W clean peaks into any two channels simultaneously. When I'm watching a movie from 14 feet away, my two side QS10s could be pushed to 300W peaks each. That's because I have them wide open (not crossed to the sub). If I had them crossed at 40Hz, they'd maybe see 50W peaks. If I had them crossed at 80Hz, then even less power would be needed.

You can see all the factors that go into answering your question. I'd say if you are powering as many as 7 surrounds, and are crossing them over at 80Hz, you should have no problem powering them with a mid-level receiver.

I was looking at the denon avr-x6500h which would be much more budget friendly vs a power amp.

It is a very nice receiver. Yet it is not designed to give reference level SPL in a 5625 sq. ft. room at listening distances of 15 to 20 feet away. However, that doesn't mean it won't work for you. I very seldom play at reference level.

It's a good way to start with your Paradigms or M100s.

Try the Denon I'm sure most of their AVRs at that level have pre-out. {Above their 3000 series} You may find it gets really hot. To which you could easily add more power later.

Is there any benefit going with a pre-amp and an axiom amp vs going with the traditional receiver with pre-amp outs and an Axiom amp?

In general having separate boxes isolates the preamp from the power amp. This keep the noise down and the supply rails cleaner . Having the power amp in a separate box reduces heat In the preamp which can effect component values and component life. It also provides room for more circuitry ...i.e. more inputs, outputs, channels and other fancy stuff.

A separate power amp give the designer space to provIde bigger power supplies, room to dissipate heat and of course more channels. Typically separate amp provide enough power to drive all channels at once.

Most receivers are built for a price and are limited by space which usually results in limited power. Because every thing is in the same box it’s harder to make the specs you can get in a prepro.

Receivers with a full complement of preouts are usually higher end products and running an amp to handle the all the channels would sound no different then the using a prepro IMO. If you use some of the receivers channels for say the surrounds you will probable be fine as long the rated power per channel Is not exceeded.

The main thing I dislike about pre-pros is they usually cost two or three times more than high-end receivers, even without the built-in amp. I still want one, but it's not really a value proposition. My plan is to get the new Anthem, whenever that ends up coming out. I want to know it can handle all of the HDMI 2.1 features to give it the longest life possible. It's a hard path for me to recommend to anyone except for extreme enthusiasts who need targets to shoot wads of money at.

Does it make any difference if running the 180 with actives that the 180 would be on a amp with the surrounds? Most of what I’ve read suggests running the center and towers on the same amp.

Each active speaker needs its own 5-channel amp. Do not mix amps between the two sides. The ADA-1250 and 1500 are quieter than the 1000 (see specs) so use one of those.

Do not put any other speakers on the amps that feed the actives.

It's about THD+N, S/N and your environment. It does no good to pay top dollar for a pre/pro that is dead quiet only to have it drowned out by ambient noise.

It's also about the best EQ software. Audyssey XT32 is very good but it can't compete with Dirac Live. The EQ implementation is also important but you have to dig hard into the manuals to understand the configurable parameters available to you.

Finally, it's a lifestyle choice. For many, going pre/pro makes them feel better even though there may be no difference in measurable performance between their pre/pro and a receiver.

It's a different market. What's interesting is that prepros do not necessarily give you better numbers especially if you take real world measurements vs manufacture numbers into account. Even if they did, in most cases you could not hear the difference.

I bought the AV8805 for the HT not for the numbers, fancy A/Ds and hyped circuitry but to get 7.4.6 Atmos. For the upstairs I bought a receiver with pre-outs as I only needed 5.1 which is set up using QS10s for surrounds as the room did not lend it self to Atmos.

Mojo has a very good point though in theory all properly built AVR/Pre should have enough of a dark background to be sufficient with a good. AMP. The main Pro I continuously run into is heat dissipation for why most choose pre/pro over AVR with pre outs. As an AVR will still get quite hot even with it's AMPs being idle.

The Axiom ADA's are fantastic. I've had my ADA1250x3 for a few years. No problem noise aside from ground loops with anything I've hooked it up too. {Integra/Anthem}

For my buildings wiring I ended up with a large Monster power brick with all cable T.V./Internet and system going to it. Plus the addition of cheap but really well shielded !0 AWG power cables from WAudio {Amazon}. For AVR/ADA lowered my noise floor dramatically.

Do you all know how difficult and time-consuming it is to select resistors that are low noise? RESISTORS! Something that to green engineers appears to be dead simple. We're talking 2 cent parts that make the difference between a great product and one destined for the trash bin. And once you've selected a vendor and type for your resistors, if you really want to be sure the resistors will meet intended noise margins, you have to test them coming in through the Receiving department before you assemble them into your product. Those tests are not simple (see link below).

Now think about all the component types besides resistors that go into a product.

https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0002/T0900200/001/current_noise.pdf

um, tell us how you really feel Mojo!

I've got an Emotiva 5 channel coming over this weekend from a friend so we can see how these M100s are supposed to play. My Yamaha RX-A860 just can't do the job... but man I still love these M100s! I'm also looking forward to hearing the M5 on walls with the new amp, hoping the Emotiva can move that 6" woofer!

Hopefully it has metal film rather than carbon resistors. Metal film rocks!

Ordering the m100s if I can get the website to take my affirm order. It's not working for some reason. Waiting on a response from Axiom to see what the issue is.

There's also a problem with applying the 21 day discount that Axiom knows about. It's holding up my order which I want fast because I have an acoustic emergency...LOL!

Did you all notice how the B-stock emptied out? it went from 9 pages to 1.2 virtually over-night. Some dirty scoundrel bought the 500 in aged walnut espresso that I had been eyeing for the last year. I got busy with meetings and couldn't buy in time.

Yeah, I was noticing that last night. I was looking for B-stock in Ebony before I attempted my order.

The M80HP in walnut espresso look outstanding. I love my walnut espresso M2 bookshelves.

Problem is, they are not M100s. Different amplitude response curves.

Looks like they have a set of QS10s in walnut espresso too, Mojo.

Yeah...my QS10s are walnut natural like my actives and dual 500s and my 160 (which is decommissioned since the actives).

The walnut reminds me of a set of Bose 901s my dad had growing up.

I have the 601s in that fake walnut.

No highs, no lows, must be Bose

You know the no highs no lows was intentional, right? Most brilliant thing I've seen in audio!

Yes, I have several smaller Bose speakers and sometimes enjoy the flat tone quality but my ears like clarity and tend to prefer crisp high frequencies. On a brighter note, the ordering issue is fixed and the m100s are on order. Now i just have to wait 21 business days + to get to hear them along with the 180 and EP500.

Unfortunately the 21 day discount is still not working for me.

Canes, what finish M100 did you get?

I can't wait for you to get those, man. One of my buddies just got a pair and he and his wife just can't stop listening to them.

Ebony with black grilles. I’ve always been partial to black although those white Miami vice speakers look pretty sleek too. I like the wood finishes but they wouldn’t fit the design we are going for.

I like the ebony and the miami vice ivory too but the ivory definitely doesn't work with my decor.

I was one of the doofuses who kept resisting wood and didn't want the prices raised one iota for a wood finish. I am so damned glad Ian doesn't listen to what his customers want but rather to what they need. I never knew I loved wood so much until I got the walnut actives in here. Now I'm addicted to woodies and want to get every Axiom speaker in every possible finish.

BTW, my M50s are ebony. I just had to try ebony, you know. I love them. Not only the finish but also the sound. The sound reminds me of a darkly lit, intimate jazz club with hints of cigar smoke, cognac and chocolate wafting in the air while a tall dame with raven hair and a husky voice croons as she eyes my curly hair and healthy complexion.

I know right! Good for Axiom, makes sense though, good deals are hard to come by and the economy (at least I my area) is booming! I have a confession, I did get the B-stock M100 boston cherries... and yes I do love them very much, even without the proper power pushing them.... looking forward to trying them with an AMP... I feel bad for my neighbors. lol

I just had to share this image, as i'm sure everyone is tired of seeing my little listening space!

It's out of picture, but the Miami Vice high gloss white EP600 is just to the left.

Is the Boston cherry wood or vinyl?

For the price I paid, I'm guessing MDF wrapped in vinyl. Looks great and sounds just as good... or does it Mojo, does the real wood sound better?

Even the wood ones are wood veneer. Real wood would not only be expensive but acoustically tough to work with.

I don't think they are made of MDF any more. I think they are HDF. Then again, I am not a wood expert. But it seems to me, the formulation has changed since the v2 days.

Waiting to see the order status change on my EP500 from processing to shipped 23 business days and counting... Really looking forward to getting everything hooked up next month. I will add an ADA1500 in a few months to run my 5.1 system and I'll convert it to one of the actives if I go that route next year.

I think the ICW (I can wait) is the minimum wait and not the maximum.

I've always told Axiom to take their time and not rush my stuff. This is life and death audio we're talking about here...LOL! I want it to work well and long. Of course the faster they ship, the faster they can recognize revenue.

Yeah I agree but once I pass the 21 day threshold I start getting antsy. This will be a whole new system because my parents are moving back to town and my father asked for his equipment back.

You're lucky to have had one to borrow. I bought the first system we ever had when I was growing up. With my money. That I earned while working illegally because I was only 11.

It was all Kenwood. I got it from Krazy Kelly's.

https://youtu.be/pmLqxGKddiE

The reason I got to borrow it is because I take care of things unlike my older brother who likes to destroy stuff. I told my dad I want his old Sherwood receiver and Technics turntable when he no longer uses them. And I need to raid his vinyl collection before my brother gets his hands on them.

I learned about things by destroying them.

He just destroys things. Nothing learned.

Someone ought to slap him. Then he'll learn.

EP500 shipping notification came today. Looking forward to test driving it. If my other two orders follow the same shipping time I should have everything shipped by Nov 9.

Uh huh! You'll like it. And you'll want more. Then the upgrading to more and "better" 600s will start.

I don't have the 600v4 but I will tell you the 800v4 adds a lot of volume-filling lows that the 500 just cannot. I am talking not only movies but music. I expect the 600 can do the same since it goes down to 12Hz.

It's like modding a car: once you start you can't stop.