We are going to be doing some work on the house and I’m thinking of upgrading the current theater setup.

The house came with Bose front height speakers and in-wall rears. I’m not a fan of the location of the rears.
I’m currently using circa 2007 M60s up front and also imploying them as a virtual center along with an EP500 from the same year.
For reference current display is 65 inches.

I have a Marantz 6012 and am looking to do a 7.1.4 Atmos setup. I’m going to be moving the M60s out for more casual listening in the lounge and bring in my Active LFRs for duty up front. I also have a monoprice 7 channel amp so only need the Marantz for processing.

Other items I have which I’m not currently using are a pair of on-wall M3s and an on-wall VP150.

Room dimensions as follows:
Wall with the display is 16’6”
Back wall is 13’3”
Wall with fireplace 16’6”
Current back left half-wall to bar 5’6”
Ceiling is flat and a height of 14’

I’ve taken three photos. (hoping the links show up correctly.) Most important call out is that I am planning on removing all the facade around the fireplace (everything currently painted white) to leave just the black fireplace opening and potentially add a wooden beam mantle if I leave the room in it’s current orientation.

I could change to room orientation and place the display above the fireplace and not put in a mantle but this would may make the cable routing a bit more challenging and I’m not sure how I’d get in a left rear speaker.

If anyone thinks I should flip the rotation let me know how you think that could work.

With current layout I’m looking at getting a 75 inch display mounted (floating) on the wall, a little higher than current location giving me the option to mount an on-wall center. I’d also be looking to have the front left moved wider for more separation. As mentioned, these would be Active LFRs. For the center I could reuse the on-wall VP150 but I was never a huge fan of it and thinking of trading it in for an on-wall VP180 to complement the Actives. Mojo, you may well say it’s not needed with the Actives doing virtual center duty. Looking to understand all options on the center.

Speaking of Mojo, my first thought was M2s for all other speakers based on your glowing reviews and either trading in my M3ows or using them in another room.

I had the in-ceiling M3s in my previous house and wasn’t floored by them.

For the front ceiling speakers I’m thinking regular white M2s on FMB which will make them blend in at 14’ and so I can position them toward the MLP.

For the back ceiling speakers I could do the same and put them right up against where the back wall meets the ceiling and angle them toward the MLP or mount on-wall M2s just behind the MLP which may look a little cleaner but you’d lose a little bit of direction.

I just have enough space to get side surrounds to line up by placing the left as far forward as possible on the bar wall and once the facade is removed around the fireplace, the right just off the window. Again I’m thinking this as an on-wall speaker and leaning toward the M2 again but would like to know if the side surround would benefit being an M5?

Lastly, the rears are having me scratch my head over the following thoughts:
Do I mount M2 on-walls with the back right mounted lower than the current in-wall and the back left also lower but flush up against the wall lip close to inline with the front left.
Do I use wedges and try to angle them a bit (not sure how much angle I’d get) toward the MLP from the same positions?
Do I use FMB with regular M2s and angle them toward the MLP?
Does anyone see any other options on the back speaker locations?

Any thoughts/opinions/suggestions would be most welcome.

Much appreciated!

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/r24hxo3nt9va8r6/DF4C6315-7616-48E0-8233-E342E9ACD5BA.jpeg?dl=0[/img]
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/xq3ets7ljfwm4hv/32FE02B9-6C42-4B9B-8FD4-86013AFFCF52.jpeg?dl=0[/img][img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zbznzqw8uu2afz/1123137A-26C3-4F39-BDF7-46B023DDBF3C.jpeg?dl=0[/img]

1. A virtual centre is the way to go if you only care about the MLP. Otherwise, VP160HP. When you're watching alone, go virtual.

2. M2 will sound thin in that room. I'd go M5 all around and up top. I don't have experience with ceiling mounting so I can't make a recommendation. FMBs sound plausible.

3. Keep the room orientation as is so as not to block the windows.

4. As for the sides and rears, what a treat to have such tall ceilings! I would experiment with the sides and rears at various heights up the walls. If "too high" up, consider upside-down mounting so that tweeters are pointing to the floor.

I take back what I said about trying the sides and rears higher up. That is bound to mess up their response. How do the current rears sound?

Go big or go home

Thanks for the input Mojo.

EIGHT M5s is not something I had considered! Here I was thinking you’d be advocating for the M2s but you make a good point in that the room volume is not typical.

The only location I was thinking about the possibility of M5s was for the side surrounds. With the rears being fairly close to the MLP I figured M2s would be okay there and I don’t think I’ve seen M5s ever being used on the ceiling before…

I’m only going to get one shot at this so would like to do it as best I can. This would also increase the budget pretty significantly .

Inverting the side/rear speakers in the M5 configuration also makes sense and I’d probably look at that route if I go in that direction.

Does anyone have any experience with M5s on a high ceiling along with rear M5s fairly close to the MLP?

They give a airy presence but you don’t get much location from them. I feel they are too high and the rear left is also misplaced.

I have the in-ceiling speakers and they sound great. I only have 9' ceilings but adding an amp would help if they didn't have sufficient sound at 14'.

I suspected the rears may not have been doing a good job. Maybe they need to be placed closer in rather than close to the side-walls. The other challenge is that multi-driver speakers require distance in order to blend properly. Maybe they should be placed higher up and angled down. That will reduce their bass response and that's where an M5 will shine over an M2.

The M5s on the ceiling will blend well given their distance.

As for the cost, it's a whole lot of speakers so work Axiom over for a deal.

Appreciate the input.

I had the in-ceilings in my previous house and thought they were missing something for me. I’m thinking either regular bookshelf angled toward the MLP or on-wall (ceiling) would work better at 14’

I don’t think this changes things too much but my wife had someone come over today regarding the overall remodel and when they went over the media room she recommended flipping the room 180 and having the display on what is currently the back wall. This would actually make the room flow better with the rest of the house.

The biggest compromise sound wise would be the new right surround which would now be just to the left of the light switch on the end of the wall behind the bar. It would need to be placed a bit higher than ideal to ensure minimal interference from the bar counter top in front of it. Makes me ask the question if flipping the speaker as Mojo suggested, to get the tweeter closer to ear height, might work or if it would mess up their response?

Speaking of orientation, if I had the rears closer together, a little higher up the back wall (say at 7’ or 8’) and angled down, it would seem that regular bookshelves mounted horizontally would work best to get a clean angle down. I’d think tweeters on the inside. But would that also mess up their response and should those rather be vertically mounted?

Same goes for the front ceiling mounting orientation. Would it be okay to mount the front highs horizontally, tweeters to the inside, angled toward the MLP or would it be best to mount them vertically?

Same goes for rear ceilings or though you could potentially use on-walls flush mounted straight down just behind the MLP but I’m kind of thinking the bookshelves would give most flexibility on dialing in the correct angle. Although at 14’ it’s not like I’m going to be changing the angles much post initial install.

So much to consider.

And I know the good folk at Axiom will certainly give me a good deal.

Tweeters should always face out for the widest possible image. These speakers aren't designed for horizontal mounting. Yes, the response would be messed up but it's unknown how much difference that orientation would make for sides, rears and heights.

I agree with that. I have M3ic in a few rooms and they lack low end. It’s the only Axiom speaker I found disappointing. In a small space they do better then in a large one.

Understood, thank you.

I’m also contemplating removing the elbow section of the bar which was also suggested. This would mean there’d be no counter top into the room which currently would interfere with the right surround placement. Might make things a little easier.

So if I’m going to go the M5 route it sounds like I’d need to do 6 x bookshelves for all ceilings and rear surrounds and 2 x on-walls for the side surrounds all mounted vertically as designed.

Perhaps M3ow’s for surrounds and tops

I’m mounting M3ow’s on the ceiling with FMBs for tops and M3 bookshelves on FMCB for heights.
Doing this requires Axiom to put in special inserts in both cases.

M3s would be easier to mount/angle for sure.

So I’ve got that the M2s will not be great. The M3s might work just fine and M5s would almost certainly give the best results for additional $$. That’s probably the hardest question to answer without trying out the different speaker types :|

Any thoughts on a mixed M5 surround layer and M3 ceilings or stick to the same 8 speakers?

With regards to on-walls on the FMB. I was under the impression that for best results you needed to mount the on-walls directly against the wall. Is that not the case or does it not apply to ceiling speakers?

Can your amp handle all the M5 load?

Let's say you go M3 up top and M5 for surrounds. Imagine a chopper taking off on your left, flying above you and landing on the right. It'll sound like this:

THWACK!THWACK! THWACK!THWACK!
phhtt, phhtt, phhtt, phhtt.
THWACK!THWACK! THWACK!THWACK!

The mid-woofer and HP woofer on the M5 THWACKS! while the M3 just phhtts.

Yes, mounting OW directly against the wall and ceiling improves bass and lower mid-range performance. You could use bookshelves but having bookshelves so close to a boundary makes KABOOMs! Possibly your receiver can correct that.

This is my amplifier . Does it look like it’ll work?

Except that’s only 7 channels :|

I’d need to use my Marantz 6012 to power 2 channels. If the Marantz is only powering two channels would this combination work?

Yup!

THWACK!THWACK! THWACK!THWACK!
phhtt, phhtt, phhtt, phhtt.
THWACK!THWACK! THWACK!THWACK!

Mojo likes to exaggerate. I’ve evaluated M3s and M5’s side by side … The M3 holds up very well especially if you have a sub in the Mix.
BTW, My HT setup is M5’s and M5ow’s for bed surrounds … and M3 and M3ow for heights and tops.

M2’s with sub, IMO, should be fine.

things to consider…

• in testing I’ve haven’t noticed any loss in fidelity going to the M3’s
• your AVR is sending anything a surround can’t produce to the subs
• directional content starts around 80Hz .. M2’s should not be a problem
• When engrossed watching a movie you’re not critical listening. Especially to surrounds!
• You can always trade up (M2->M3->M5) for no cost.

That said … I really like My QS10s in the family room. I should try swapping in QS8 (from the bedroom) and see if I notice a big difference.
The family room is 5.1 M2/VP150/EP500 with QS10 rears

M2 or M3 will be great. M5 will be greater.

The M2 is more clear than the M3 in the mid-range. And it doesn't try to play where it can't (bass). The M3 goes lower and that single bass driver also does mids but not as well as the M2. So the M2 is more linear throughout its designed range. But that also makes it sound thinner in larger, less treated rooms like yours. The M3 will certainly sound fuller and hence warmer.

The M5 eliminates the short-comings of the M2 and M3 with the HP driver and dedicated mid-woofer albeit at more expense and power demand. The M5 can also hit about 6dB higher than the M2 and M3 before audible distortion sets in.

Having said all that, I tried M2 (OW and bookshelf), M3 bookshelf, M5 (OW and bookshelf), M50, M80, M100, and ALFR in my 1920 cu.ft. living room. The M2OW won.

Thank you both for that great feedback.

I believe my room is about double the volume of yours at close to 4000 cu. ft.

My current bass situation is a fairly tired circa 2007 EP500 which is a bit finicky. Not all the inputs work and I believe the volume control is also out of wack as I have to have it set to the minimum level to make it useable.

So current bass is less than ideal.

If I don’t change the subwoofer I’d think I’d probably need to go with M5s all around. You all are making me think I might need to look at updating my sub situation and go with M2s but that would be more than going with M5s all around

Your sub needs upgrading no matter what. Trade it in. Don't think twice about it.

Even with a sub, you will get more emotional impact setting the cross-over for the M5s to 40Hz. With the M2 you'll have to cross at 80 and M3 at 60.

BTW, I run 4-channels (fronts and sides). I have sealed subs on every channel. My 800 is dedicated to LFE only. There is no substitute for full range on every channel.

The family room is a bit over 2900 cu ft ... the setup M2/VP150/EP500 setup seems to fill it nicely ...

Like Mojo said ... you'll need to fix that EP500! It sounds fixable.
In any case Sub's are important ... I'd bet you could benefit with 2 EP500's in that room

Having to set the volume to the min level, to make it work, is kind of intriguing ... I would understand needing to set it to the max.

Thoughts on that:

• Subs will go lower than the M5s
• Surrounds can not be set to help will the low end of the other speakers ...
• M5's only go down to 45Hz (call it 40 even) ... So you would not want to set them to LARGE since you'd want the low-end off loaded to the sub.
• since frequencies below are 80 hard if not impossible to place there is not a big need to cross over below that.
• Personally I'd set the M5 x-over at 60Hz, M3's and M2 at 80 Hz. (I would try the the M5's at 40 and maybe the M3's at 60 but so far I have not found content to test with... Anyone know any movies which sends the surrounds low bass frequencies?)

All movies contain the full spectrum of sound in each channel. The LFE channel, which is designed for 3Hz to 120Hz, is not mandatory for the sound engineer.

Yes, even M5s require a sub.

Sure, that's the audio spec ... but what do content creators actually send to the surrounds?

I don't know but what I do know is my subs are busy below 40Hz. BLAM! DDDDDDD...KABOOM! THWACKTHWACKKABLAAM!

BOOOOOOOÒÒÒOOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!

What are your goals for the room performance wise? Adding lots of big speakers might be a dissapointment given all hard surfaces and tile floor. You might want to allow some budget for a room rework. A 14’ ceiling is going to be a reverb chamber without a plan to reduce decay times.

Pop a balloon. Sound like a boing or zing? Start there.

If this was a client install I would be pushing for stereo EP500s for the LFRs and an ultra short throw projector for a 120” image to cover the fireplace. Cover the lower 2/3 of windows with honeycomb blackout blinds to reduce decay times and treat the back wall with a tapestry. Put diffusers on sidewalls.

Keep it simple. This is a problem room with insane decay times. My vote anyways.

Treat a sick room like I did.

Not to disuade you, but I would put serious thought into treating that room if you are going to enjoy it at loud volumes or want a discrete presentation for movie soundtracks.

Its a pile of work to do it right, but can be done.

We did a room ages ago with 13’ ceilings and did this:

How do you know … are the surround sub x-overs set to 40hz? If not try it again crossing over at 40hz. It would be interesting to see what they do

I set my receiver to play the QS10s full range. The subs play below 40Hz.

Thank you for taking the time to weigh in Trevor. You’ve certainly given me a lot more to think about. I had thick carpet in the previous house and much lower ceilings so drawing on your vast and varied experience is certainly appreciated.

I’m not sure where to begin, LOL…

We are replacing the flooring throughout the house with Vinyl Plank which is not going to offer much sound absorption. We tried changing the room to face the fireplace and it did not work great from a layout/house flow perspective. We are leaning strongly toward flipping the orientation and having the back wall be where the display is currently.

If we are having work done I’d like to get as much pre-wired as possible but I don’t have to buy every piece of equipment although prices are about to go up at Axiom. I know my sub needs replacing and if starting out with just two EP500s is the best next step I’m open to considering that option and then planing out the rest of the path forward.

I’m going to have to look more at room treatments. Serious WAF needs to be factored in so unfortunately will not be able to head down Mojo’s DIY path.

An ultra short throw projector is also something I’d consider…

Need a bit of time to mull things over

In your part of the world, this may be your only opportunity to employ furnace filters.

LOL!

We actually use those on almost all our HVAC systems over here

Is your place made of bricks with plaster inside and out?

I’m assuming you are asking this in reference to my comment on pre-wire.

Thankfully not. I’ve been there, done that, and it’s a very messy job chasing conduit for speakers.

If the room had regular ceilings I’d be less fussed, but with 14’ walls that’s not a job I particularly want to take on myself and have to patch if we are getting getting guys in to do remodeling in the rest of the house soon.

I was asking in reference to Trevor's advice. If it was brick and plaster, the room response would be even worse.

I was thinking about a short throw projector for that room as well. They're not cost competitive with 85" flatscreens (particularly when you add a light rejecting screen), but there's something to be said about a huge screen.

https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/light-resistant-screens.html

Oh boy, yes I remember!

Trevor, do you have any experience with acoustic panels and with walls this high? My wife came across these panels as something she wouldn’t be too opposed.

Yes, a very valid point.

I had a 120” screen many years ago and it was lovely. My gut is that going with a projector would be cost prohibitive.

USTs continue to get better while falling in price. Screens are also falling. So you might want to get that 85" and consider a UST upgrade later.

That's basically what I did a few years ago ... I was temped to by the USTs but went with a nice 77" instead. My thinking was that eventually, if I really wanted something bigger, I'd move the 77" to the bedroom .

Clearly there is an established upgrade path

Currently have a 65” and the original plan was/is to move that to the bedroom and replace it with a nice 77”!

I don't know how y'all live with all this shite in your bedrooms. My bedroom consists of one bed and a closet. Nothing on the walls. All I do there is sleep and change clothes.

If all I had was a bedroom I might be more inclined along those lines but these “bedrooms” are massive!

Ours is 14’x25’ which is just crazy big as far as I’m concerned.

As such it makes sense to have a couch/tv off to the side where we can watch something while the family has friends over.

It also happens to make the upgrade easier to explain

Your bedroom is larger than my living room. You need an EP800 in there.

Yeah, that’s not going to fly

Seems fine. To increase effectiveness install using method 3 in the details provided in the link. The product you linked does not specify the low frequency effectiveness. Best to back it with roxul as mentioned.

Typically a room is treated so that areas are a mix of diffusion and absorption with bare space between. Be cautious of treating an entire wall if that is your plan. If you plan on ceiling speakers for atmos, consider hanging clouds and mounting speakers in them. These can act as points of visual design interest and also act as absorbers if you lay roxul on top. Less attic penetration that way too.

Plenty of install guides online. Main takeaway is to create a homogeneous space with staggered absorbers/diffusers/bare wall on as much surface as practical. The more surface you treat, the drier the room gets (reducing decay times.) A reproduction space should aim for 300-450 milliseconds. You will be hard pressed to hit the high end of that without substatial effort, but something is definitely better than nothing!

Thanks Trevor!

I was thinking of method 3 so same page there. Love the idea of ceiling speakers mounted on cloud treatments as well.

Slowly working toward a concrete plan.

Hope it goes well! Please share progress if you are comfortable doing so. Fun to follow along.