Hi: Starting a new thread in right section

So I am now into the 5 days of comparison of these fine speakers & a winner is starting to emerge before I get to that here is a list of the artists I've listed to: Dire Straits,Billy Joel,Bruce Hornsby,Kenny G.,Tragically Hip,Sade,Amanda Marshall,Metallica,Bon Jovi,, more to come and open to any others that have music that will test speakers.

So with the above artists(many different types of songs) with no room correction used the 800F's have emerged as the winners as of right now they are airier at the top end,more detailed over all,sound stage is a bit wider,the Axiom's are better on the bottom end that is not a surprise...but they do not embarrass the 800's in this area.Have not tried movies yet as music is in my opinion more revealing.....next stage is to continue to try more types of music hence my comment above of any well recorded music too....on Friday will have time to calibrate speakers & then try some good action films with loud scenes and subtle one's too. The surprising part is other then bass response the 800F's are noticeably better in my room so far and to repeat even in the bass area the 800's are only slightly behind the M60's. So there it is more updates to follow!!Cheers.

It sounds like fun.

I suggest listening to news anchors or YouTube talking heads and see if the treble is lifted. You shouldn't be hearing treble air in their voices.

It'd be interesting to know how they fare during lower and higher volumes and which pair acoustically disappears better.

You blew them up, yeah?

StereoG,

Try this album.

https://open.spotify.com/album/02wrkK9VX7tCIkGbRXdO6v?si=ZdPaMb2cSCSCyWQwxxohTg

Track 1,2 and 8.

Track 1 good skin slapping at the start.

Track 2 nice guitar sounds and string texture

Track 8 bass and strong vocals , vocal softness.

She is danish. There is one part in track 2 at 1:00 she says “see” but it sounds like “she”. It’s not sibilant it’s just her pronouncing it with an accent. Track 2 also listen for tambourines in time with and behind the cymbals of tbe drum kit. Also the first time her voice comes in on track 2 have the volume up up up and listen for any midrange breakup as there is some dynamics there as she accentuates the word “ when living”.

Enjoy! It’s an incredibly produced album. Hope that helps.

FYI I always find my m60s sound remarkably better out in the room and with well powered solid amplification. I don’t know your room but that’s what I have to offer. I bet you’re having fun with both pair of speakers! I’m rooting for the Axioms of course but Paradigm is no slouch! May the best tower win.

Ps. Be sure to do some long sessions as well like a couple hours or more nonstop at moderate spl without cherry picking songs. Kinda like a listening fatigue test. And a low volume test too at night.

We want details!!!!
Have fun!!

Thanks Kodiak for the advice!! I have listened more since that post & will try room correction this Saturday to see if that it(ARC) helps the M60's more then the 800F's can not see how that would be the case...but will do that have listened for 2 hrs to all kinds of music & radio stations & the same result keeps coming up while the M60's do reach deeper in every other way(high's,Mid's,) the 800F are a major step above them!!So given the outcome on Monday which is decision day it is looking more & more like the Axiom's are going back.

Now my Anthem video switching is acting up grrr...using Roger's cable & when I shut off the AVR my Roger's remote is useless can not switch channels or anything for that matter for about 10 mins after shutting it off.....getting pissed at this wondering if made a mistake with the Anthem and should have gotten a Marantz 6015???

Yeah, that's what I said a few weeks ago. The 60 would be challenged in the mids and highs compared to the 800 but would do well in the lows.

I'm curious though about higher volumes. I know the woofers on the 800 will distort but I'm curious about the mid and tweeter.

And what about soundstage and the ability of speakers to disappear?

I'll never buy Anthem.

It was closer than I thought it would be. I don't really know what to make of Paradigm anymore, they talk the talk of using NRC research, but seem to deliver products that are voiced for rooms with hardwood floors (I'm not kidding).

Still, it was a fair fight. I'm not capable of doing these comparison tests anymore now that I have an AVR instead of an A/B switching receiver or integrated amp. I was able to A/B my last significant purchase, and I knew within a minute which was the better speaker.

Wondering if should get a Marantz Cinema 50(replacement for 6015) have heard a Denon 3700 sounded flat to me & reading not just my experience.Marantz has a more full sound.Do I think all amps sound the same no...but is there a large difference no to that too!!

I don't know what Paradigm's product strategy is. Each product family appears to have a different spinorama recipe. That doesn't seem right to me. The holy grail is to hit on a recipe that lab and market data tells you is right and then replicate that recipe for every speaker family as best as you can. That's what Axiom has done and that's why the soundstage and imaging for every one of its speakers is similar. Where they differ as one moves up in price is performance rather than functionality.

This by the way is why I hold Ian in such high regard. It takes a certain constitution, a depth of faith, to believe in the science of spinorama and work on understanding the psychoacoustic impact of the wrinkles in every curve. And to work at it over a 30 year period (the first 10 years were cutting his teeth years), refining over and over with history, new lab data and market feedback as guides, is remarkable. Who else in the industry has done that? A good question of course is when does the law of diminishing returns kick in? As I said many times on these boards, I feel that law kicked in with v4. It's maybe as far as one can take the Millenia architecture that kicked off the "M" line.

Getting back to Paradigm, maybe it hasn't figured out the recipe and is experimenting with different recipes to get market data. Maybe it had the recipe and it left as folks walked out the door. Or maybe the recipe can't be defended for whatever reason.

Did Paradigm ever have a spinorama recipe to govern all its products? Did all its speakers at one time sound similar in terms of soundstage and imaging?

Anyway, someone appears to have done very well with the 800F. Maybe that spinorama can act as a good reference recipe for Paradigm.

Edit: BTW, the Bryston line definitely has a tweaked recipe. It strives for a horizontal listening window curve instead of downward tilting.

I wish I could guide you on a receiver. I just don't know.

Good to hear that you are also evaluating them at higher volumes including the soundstage and imaging.

I want to hear me some 800F's now.....

Tyler, just get Rich to 3D print you perforated phase aligning lenses for your M60 mids and tweeters. Then the M60s will sound similarly good.

The 800F's sounded better to me in my room.....Kodiak if you can get a trial in your place I say go for!!! I am still surprised but in a good way!!While speaking to my dealer here in London told me Roger's is causing alot of problems with their Ignite boxes....pio elites now do not work with pass thru settings etc....don't like Roger's but have no choice in my area!!!

I have always liked to listen to Pink Floyd, DSOTM when putting different speakers through a SQ test. The track - Time in particular when the alarm clocks go off is great for mids/highs.

I also like Alison Kraus. Pretty much all of her CDs are done exceptionally well.

I have 12 different releases of DSOTM. The best sounding one - and the only one I can listen to on the ALFRs - is the HSACD released in March 2003. I listen to the CD layer. I've never had an SACD player.

Michael, never mind Alison Krauss. Sure, she has great midrange but only a 10 foot soundstage and average image. Now here's a couple of real ladies for you. 30 foot wide with deep and tall stage and more images than most senior audiophiles can handle.

https://youtu.be/0ir1qkPXPVM

I have the SACD release of DSOTM. It is fantastic. Stereo is good, but surround is killer.

Thanks for the link. I almost puked in my mouth. I cannot stand POP. I'll stick with Alison Kraus. New Favorite is one CD in particular I like.

Paradigms model of sales is to release something new every 2 years so that you can keep on saying new and improved. each will sound different so that you can say inside a showroom 'see how these sound better'. the psychoacoustic side they learned was that in a showroom you can fool the customer into believing thatew and improved must equal better. that was what the NRC project showed. They sight and preconceived notion does effect the sounds we hear, and when you do the tests as totally double blind that this effect can be eliminated. They also found that a base set of parameters seem to be constant with the enjoyment of what people hear in the blind test.

So from a perfect business money making side, use the base sound attributes and waver around that sound making a new set of speakers every 2-3 years then plaster the hell out in maketing about how you have improved over what you had before. That way you get the two effects of what people hear and can sell a shit load of new merchandise every few years.

Axioms model is flawed from a business perspective in the time between iterations is too long, and the only way to improve the sound is to move up and up the chain in cost, and once you've got the actives, then you have run out of upgrade options and won't need to buy again as there isn't anything above them.

once you have actives ….
- Axiom already has all your money
- you are too old to hear an upgrade anyway
- in serious need of a new hobby as this one has consumed you

These are all very entertaining facts.

I personally like Axiom’s thinking. I know I can purchase any model and know the quality is there and what to expect. It’s a model that promotes high reliability and honesty. Not one that needs to come out and say “ hey we are the best!” Rather just keeps on doing what they know is best and moving forward.

While I’m intrigued by Paradigm 800f I’m also more likely to go with what I know I already like and bank on that predictability. ( This assumes one likes the Axiom sound and if done in a blind setting I suspect most would ).

It’s sort of like cars and trucks. It’s very hard to get around the style of a car versus reliability and performance. If you had to pick a blind truck based on its proven performance and long term reliability and how it drove and had no idea how it looked , it would be hard to deliberately choose the worse performer after seeing it. Why would you?

I’m not saying the Paradigm 800f don’t sound good! I don’t know I’ve never heard them.

This is a more general rant than putting paradigm against axiom.

I guess the missing piece is where do your values sit? Not everyone wants high reliability and unbiased decisions. Sometimes it is about fashion over function. ( again I’m not putting down the 800f) I have no doubt they sound awesome! Bottom line is, do what fits your values but you need to know what your values are , otherwise how are you deciding. Even knowing you are biased can not remove that factor from the decision. Going deeper, ( ok now I’m ranting…and this goes way deeper than just speakers) some truly believe they absolutely right even when they are very wrong. Google the term : Dunning Krueger effect. Fascinating stuff.

Either way, nice to have to choices and the enjoyment of deciding.

Then there is the loyalty program, trade-ins, etc that add to the value.

You don't like any pop? Not even the older stuff like Kim Carnes, Carly Simon, Joan Jett, Tina Turner, Whitney Houston,...?

That used to be called rock. So technically, yes sir, I like(d) most of it. Where would you place Fleetwood Mac, the Steve Miller Band, or Joe Walsh?

OK, understood. This shit's complicated, so please pay attention.

There is rock. There is pop. And there is pop rock.

Rock is heaviness and grit and also power of weightier instruments like guitars and drums to add catchy melodies to.

Pop is softer, and uses catchy melodies in a soft background, with a chirpy and often upbeat sound, with little grit but bassy. Pop refers to all sorts of popular music like hip-hop, country, R&B, bubblegum pop, jangle pop, folk, singer-songwriter, K-Pop, and kids music.

Pop rock is the intersection of pop with rock.

Fleetwood Mac was British Blues originally but eventually turned to pop rock.

Steve Miller is rock blues, psych rock, Southern rock.

Joe Walsh is hard/blues/pop/progressive/country rock.

Ummmm....hello, you forgot K-POP....just saying.

That's music found on K-Tel albums. Tyler, you are too young to know K-Tel.

Awww geez...you reminded me of Krazy Kelly's in Winnipeg.

https://youtu.be/pmLqxGKddiE

I used to repair stuff from them in high school.

Yeah before my time. I grew up in the Columbia House Era!

Haven't heard Paradigm speakers in a long time, but it does certainly seem like they pump out alot of new models every year or other year. I doubt there is much 'new' in them at all.
That's marketing.
Hopefully they aren't moving to the darkside and just producing marketed junk. It is what sent Tannoy down the tubes IMO, among a few other things (not that they had superbly linear speakers, but having gone from selling their high end reputation to cheap junk in a desperate attempt to capture the HT buzz when it really all got going was part of an inevitable death knell).

but the real wood finish looks nice and they sure do impress the guests when they come over.