I tiny bit more info on LCoS from the Intel website.

It is exciting. With Intel bucks and fabs getting into the mix one can hope the prices will come down faster.

I'm still waiting for the day I can play DOOM3 and HL2 on a 60in screen at a resolution of 1920x1080 with my HT system for sound. Talk about life-like immersion.
Hehe, I'm thinking I should also invest in some Depends.

jr

I think we will all be dead before Halo 2 comes out. Trust me, all of my buddies have been waiting for too long.

Thanks for the post. I really hope that this is something that will come to market soon and get the price range on flat screens down to something a bit more reasonable.

It's interesting that silicon is being used to help make something flat.

LOL

I'm pretty excited as well. As you all probably know, I suffer from crappyteeveeitus. In another year or so, I should have the money for a new one, and by then a really nice 1920x1080 LCoS set should be available!

HL2 = Half Life 2.

But Halo 2 is definitely hard to wait for.

Ah, so it's 3 vaporware games, now...

Although, to be fair, we've been waiting a lot longer for Doom3 than the other two.

Has Duke Nukem Forever been canceled yet?

Nah. It will be out 'when it's ready'....

I can't believe you guys all want a 1920x1080 big screen TV for video games.

Am I just getting old?

Spiffnme,
it sounds to me like you'll have a new tv in your house in a year-and-a-half?

That's the hope!

I think I might cancel my waitlist on the Denon DVD-2900. I'm going to want to take advantage of digital outputs into a new TV. The 2900 doesn't have DVI or HDMI...and I can't buy two new DVD players - Roger would shoot me!

I'll just have to live without SACD until then.

*sigh*

I agree with your thinking there. I was tempted to look a little more closely @ the 2200 or 2900, but with no digital video outs, it's maybe not the wisest long-term investment (if you plan on purchasing a dig display anyways).

I've been doing a lot of research on LCoS recently. I hear that the technology is eventually going to be cheaper than LCD Rear Projection, with better resolution and motion than DLP, all in a small footprint. Also, LCoS doesn't seem to have the problem with the bulb burning out. It's got a 80,000 life, the same as a CRT. It's an exciting time for toob lovers.

I too stayed away from the Denons for the lack of DVI and opted for a samsung HD-931. The picture quality was outstanding on the big screen in the store and it looks great on my old Sony 32". Now I am going crazy waiting for the big screen. LCoS sounds very promising.

Hi all,

LCoS has sounded "very promising" for years now. Maybe Intel can pull it off. But Toshiba just abandoned all its LCoS development and announced at CES in January that it's moving to DLP and introducing up to ten new models of DLP HDTV rear-pros later this year. Doesn't that tell you something?

I'm still waiting to see an LCoS demo that equals the snap, contrast, and blacks of the best DLP demos. So far, it hasn't happened.

Regards,

Oh...sure Alan, rain all over our parade.

Bottom line...in a year or so I'll be watching a new 50"+ TV. Whether it's the latest greatest DLP, plasma or LCos has yet to be determined.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Hi Spiff,

Sorry if I was playing Mr. Cranky (I must learn how to do those little faces. . .). I think the LCoS technology is fascinating and maybe it will come of age quickly (now playing Mr. Upbeat. .). A few years ago at CEDIA I was marveling at the image from a DLP projector that cost $22,000. Look what's happened over 3 years.

Regards,

In reply to:

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But Toshiba just abandoned all its LCoS development and announced at CES in January that it's moving to DLP and introducing up to ten new models of DLP HDTV rear-pros later this year. Doesn't that tell you something?

---

I just found this article, and it says "Toshiba introduced their Cinema Series 57XLX82 57-inch projection TV at CES 04 and won "Best of Innovations" in its category."

The A 57XLX82 is a 57" LCos television. They won this award, and then abandoned it?

Spiff,

What? You want a direct quote? And who is this guy Adrien Biffen? Did he attend the show? If he did, he coudn't have missed the Toshiba story. It was big news. And in his chart of pros and cons of various TV technologies, he fails to note the so-so contrast ratio of LCD flat-panel and LCD projection sets, although he does mention the limited contrast of LCoS.

Here's the story from the CES Daily, published at the show by TWICE (This Week in Consumer Electronics), Jan. 10th, '04, edition:

TOSHIBA EMBRACES DLP RPTVs, DROPS LCoS
by Greg Tarr

LAS VEGAS -- Toshiba America Consumer Products television marketing VP Scott Ramirez announced here Wednesday that the company has officially stepped away from rear-projection TVs based on LCoS micro devices in favor of the popular and more available DLP chips from Texas Instruments.

For the past two years, the company has touted LCoS televisions as the flagship products in its digital TV offerings, but chip shortages prevented Toshiba from delivering its 2003 models to market. For 2004, Toshiba plans to embrace DLP in a big way, Ramirez said.

He said Toshiba will introduce later this year an expansive DLP lineup using TI's HD2+ hi-def TV chip and a light engine system completely designed and built by Toshiba. . .Ramirez said Toshiba intends to use DLP to take "a top three" market share position . . ."

The story goes on to explain that Toshiba is reportedly planning to offer 10 DLP models in 2004.

In the press room at the show, I also heard that the expense of getting the factory "yield" (the ratio of good to bad LCoS chips) to a satisfactory level was a major impediment to the evolution of LCoS and one of the reasons Toshiba dropped the technology.

Regards,

OK, is there a grumpy virus going around?

I appreciate high quality products as much as anybody, but I don't think buying the latest, greatest thing in HDTV is necessary or wise.
Buy something that you know will perform and make you happy for the near term (5 years?), w/out breaking the bank. If that's all I get out of my HD Phillips 60" then so be it. That TV was the best value/enjoyment purchase I've ever made. The picture quality of the "cheap" CRT HD RPTVs is far better than adequate.

I've been reading a lot of back and forth arguements on DLP vs LCoS... I guess only time will tell. Perhaps if Intel can crank out some good chips it will get manufacures interested in LCoS.

Either way, a yr from now I will have a DLP or LCoS, whichever is better at the time =)

In reply to:

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And in his chart of pros and cons of various TV technologies, he fails to note the so-so contrast ratio of LCD flat-panel and LCD projection sets,

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I noticed that too. The reason I mentioned this article, was to hear what you thought. I trust you.

It does seem that LCoS's fate hangs in Intels ability to produce a high quantity of good chips. If anyone can do it, Intel should.

I've still never even seen a LCoS set. Of the "new" technologies though, I've been most impressed with DLP. No they're making DLP sets that are thin enough to hang on a wall like plasma.

I saw the Phillips LCoS set today in a local store, which had been calibrated by the ISF guy who owned the store and was being fed a HD signal from a Samsung Receiver and it was a very nice looking display. It had a Samsung DLP setup next to it, the 46" version, and to me I prefered the look of the Sammy. I have also seen the Toshiba LCoS set, but that was last fall, and I dont remember anything that stuck out. That could be a good thing or a bad thing.

Also, spiff, why are you on a wait list for the 2900? You're in Oakland right? I was in Santa Rosa this week at the Good Guys store, and they had several in stock, both black and silver. The Magnolia Hi-Fi, BestBuy's high end store also had a couple in stock. It was hard resisting not taking one home with me. But I need a sub first so, it will come later.

Sorry for the off topic post, but just my 2 cents...


**You're in LA. Forget what I said. Maybe you can get GoodGuys to do a store search and have them ship it down for you. Just a thought if you really want it...**

I've got a guy on the inside that can get me a factory refurbished 2900 for under $500. The catch is I have to wait awhile for it. Well worth the wait if you ask me.

I'd have to agree with you on that one!

Did you ever consider the 2200?

I did consider it, but I'd have to pay more for a 2200 than I can get at 2900 for.

Everyone drooling over a 1920 x 1080 LCoS display, consider this: Virtually all current digital display HDTV sets have a maximum physical resolution of 1280 x 720 or lower. While you might think a 1920 x 1080 native display (whether LCoS or otherwise) is significantly better, there are several factors that diminish the possible improvement.

Several networks will broadcast in 720p (ABC, ESPN, Fox). Whether the HD display is natively higher resolution won't improve things.

Most current 1080i broadcasts are effectively limited to about 1440 horizontal pixels to lessen the required video compression. In essence, there are no *true* 1080i broadcasts for a 1920 x 1080 HD display to receive.

Actual tests indicate 720p often has roughly equal "practical" resolution to 1080i, despite having half the theoretical pixels per frame. It's very nonintuitive, but sometimes 720p has better resolution than 1080i. This is due to interline flicker and other factors affecting the 1080i interlaced display.

When the day comes that a native 1920 x 1080 display is available at the same cost as a 1280 x 720 display, there's no sense in not getting one. But current 720p native displays are much better than the pixel count would indicate.

http://www.vxm.com/Progvsinter.html

HD-DVD will most likely be 1920x1080. True high-def resolution is 1920x1080. It's been an established resolution for a long time. I'm not sure how 1280x720 has gotten away with calling itself HD. Certainly it's higher-def, but it's not true HD.

Whenever I do finally get a new TV it's primary function is going to be for playing back DVD's. I watch very little broadcast TV, and what I do, I'm not all that terribly concerned with it's PQ.

So...for those reasons, that is why I'm excited about LCoS. Right now I'm still in a holding pattern. I want to wait and see how the dust settles on HD-DVD and the DLP/LCoS battle for supremecy. Let's hope things are somewhat more settled in a year or so.

The high definition standard provides for a number of resolutions including 720 progressive, 1080 interlaced, and 1080 progressive. I believe there are others as well. They are all high definition and all are required to be accepted by high definition televisions though most simply scale them all to whatever single resolution they support.

In reply to:

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I want to wait and see how the dust settles on HD-DVD and the DLP/LCoS battle for supremecy. Let's hope things are somewhat more settled in a year or so.

---

In another year there may be another battle of other technologies.
The battles never end.
So when does one finally decide?
We took the plunge over a year ago. I would have to say anything above 480 res right now would be bliss. Our tv is capable of 1080i spec which is more than enough to make me happy for quite some time. If we could handle CRT at 480 for the past 30+ years of living, what's another 30 at something considerably better?

I doubt my eyes will get any less blurry into my 80s such that a higher res screen will clear things up.

Here's another log for this fire. I haunt the local store where I got most of my gear over the last year. I like to visit my new friend there (discount Chuck) and my money. Chuck is quite the information maven and he put me through a little exercise.

I was admiring the various plasmas they had hung on the walls and discussion ensued over several visits. He ended up doing a few blinds for me and actually rearranging these things over a few visits (slow during the winter). I was completely unable to pick out the Enhanced Def TV (EDTV) versus the HDTV when the were receiving the HD signal.

I hope this doesn't degrade into one of our recent super thread dummy contests. The point I'm trying to make is that there just wasn't much difference my old eyes could pick up between the pictures. I was able to IMMEDIATELY notice that the EDTV price was significantly lower than HDTV. Just a bit of info for those lusting for a plasma. There may be a bit of marketing hype influence here that exceeds our senses' ability to make the trip that we are being led to make.

Ray, that's a good point. To corroborate this, on my Samsung HLN-507W 50" DLP, a well-mastered anamorphic DVD (720 x 480) looks to the casual observer just like true HD. Of course 720p is better -- it has 3x the pixel count at 2x the frame rate. But it's amazing how good even *current* DVDs can be when well mastered.
HD adopters quickly discover an issue all too familiar to Axiom owners: even on current 720p displays, there's a huge quality variation due to source material. Like Axiom speakers, quality is often limited by source-material, not the reproduction technology.

E.g, I've seen different shows, all broadcast in HD, that spanned a quality range from barely above analog NTSC to so clear it's like a picture in space. It all depends on source material quality and how carefully that quality was maintained during the multi-step transition to your HD receiver. A frequent pet peeve is when broadcasters use statistical multiplexing to reduce data rate, siphoning off bandwidth that subtly (or not so subtly) degrades picture quality.

It quickly becomes obvious to HD adopters that HDTV is more analogous to a very high definition version of streaming video on your PC. Many things can interfere with the data rate needed for true HD.

Like Spiff said, thank goodness for DVDs and soon-to-be HD-DVD.