After years of waiting, I'm finally going to get a decent home theater setup. I'm going with a Sony 42" KF-42WE610 television, and the Axiom Epic 50 Home Theater package. After reading all the reviews I can find, I think I've got two winners there. I just can't seem to find good advice on a reciever. All of this will be going into a smaller sized living room now, and a bigger room in about a year. They'll be used for movies and PS2 games about 90% of the time, and music for the rest of the time. Right now I'm looking at two main choices:
Sony STR-DA2000ES Seems like a solid reciever, lots of good features that I like (on-screen programming, etc). Haven't seen too many reviews of it online though. I like sticking with Sony, since everything else I have is Sony (TV, DVD, VCR, PS2, etc)
or
Onkyo TX-SR701 - Pretty much the same, but with more reviews online.
So, if I was looking for a reciever in the $500-800 range, with on-screen setup, and at least 2 optical inputs, what would you recommend?
I've researched that very same Sony model and I couldn't quite understand if it had pre-outs or not. I believe it had just two pre-outs for the main channels but I am not sure. Either way, they are both pretty good recievers that should make you happy. If the Sony doesn't have the pre-outs then I would go with the Onkyo just to be safe.
blue dragon- sounds like you are well on your way to having a real nice HT system. i was just looking at 42 inch flat screens yesterday afternoon myself.
i cant say i know alot about the sony receivers, but i do know the sony ES models have been spoken very well of. i CAN speak of the onkyp 701 because it is what i own. i like this receiver VERY much, and have no major complaints about it. i will start with the good stuff. it has pre/pro connections for adding a bigger amp at a later date. multiple inputs/outputs for hooking up any number of components. i seriously doubt you would ever use them all.. plus, there are inputs in the front for easy hookup of playstation or video recorder. it is a 7.1, 100 watt per channel demon that can play as loud and clear as you can take it. i have still yet to crank it to MAX volume cause my ears start to hurt. it has up conversion capabilities up to s-viseo. it has a great learning remote, and the owners manual is very informative and easy to read and follow. PLUS, with the 702's coming out, you can find great deals on the 701's. easily available on the web from $450-$550 bucks. i think in that price range, you will not find a more versatile and reliable receiver.
now, to be fair, the stuff i dont like about it. it doesnt do up conversion to component cables, but that ok.. it doesnt have the new Pro Logic IIx decoding, and it does get hot if worked hard.. so make sure you have it well ventilated.
thats it.. i aint saying nothin bad on the sony, but i am saying plenty of good on the 701. it has been a complete workhorse for me, and i couldnt be happier with my purchase.
bigjohn
I just gave up a Sony 995 (to my kids) for an Onkyo 801. I've always looked at Onkyo as "just a little beyond my budget". but I found it on sale at CC for under $800. It does seem to hit a sale every few weeks at CC.
The Onkyo 801 sounded better than the Sony right off the bat. However the front panel lights died after 6 weeks and I found two local dealers to get warranty work with. As far as I know the only way to get a Sony fixed under warranty is to ship it to them. Having swiped the Sony 995 back from my kids while I waited for the repair, I was even more impressed with the sound of the Onkyo. Whenever you buy something new you want to like it, so it will probably sound great to your ears anyway. But take it away and see if the old sound holds up. I really like the Onkyo!
It has hidden features like the ability to set up the speakers individually, but the Sony can only setup speaker distances in pairs. All-in-all I'm much happer with the Onkyo than I ever have been with the Sony. One last thing... check the THD. I don't know about the Sony ES line, but the new Sony 997 has more THD than the least expensive Onkyo receiver.
I have had a few Sony ES models. One of my favourites is the Sony 777ES. Kick ass receiver and a very under rated piece. Shortly after I got rid of it I went with a Yamaha DSP-A1 and the Sony was heads and shoulders better in almost everyway possible. I also had the 7ES and it once again was a nice unit. I have also had the 333ES and 555ES. I have never had one of the newer ones but if they are anything like ones from the past year or two, they will be nice. Up until I got my Denon 3805 I was running the Onkyo 800. Very nice unit but a little shy on power when it comes to lower ohm speakers. I looked hard at the Sony 9000ES before I went with the Denon but I just could not justify the money.
Only thing I can compare against is the 777Es vs the 800. Even with the 777ES being a few years old, I would take it over the Onkyo 800.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that both Sony and Onkyo make dam nice stuff. If your going to be powering lower ohm speakers and want it loud, get the Sony. The Onkyo will also work but you may have to add another amp to offset it.
Neverhappy,
Did you ever run a 4 ohm speaker on any of the Sony recievers you listed?
Interesting, my Integra will run my m80's effortlessly. It's a re-badged Onkyo. I personally think Sony is the cheapest crap out there and you couldn't pay me to own it. The ES is just another way for Sony to get your money.
Obviously I don't like Sony
I think their equipment is total $hit! Just my opinion, Sorry if I insult anyone.
I've had a few of each ... an Onkyo TXDS797THX receiver and a Sony STRDB 1070, not an ES, but close. The Onk was better, much more powerful and more musical, though the Sony did have superior SLAM, some aspect of attack.
I now have a Sony TA E9000ES processor in one system, and an Integra DTC 9.4 processor in another. I picked up the Sony from ebay, new B stock for $499, the Integra was about 3 times the price. Don't get me wrong, the Integra is great, extremely musical, and is a 7 channel unit with multichannel inputs and great DACS for each, but the TA E9000ES with the firmware upgrades is a match for the Integra.
My advice ... if you don't need 7 channels and don't have SACD/DVD Audio, grab a nice TA E9000ES processor, and get yourself some great used 2 channel amps. (Onkyo, Integra, Marantz, Yamaha M-80/M-85, Parasound, etc.)
wid, Only with the 777ES. Every other Sony I had was running 6ohm or 8ohm speakers. Don't get me wrong here. The Onkyo has good power I just felt that when I got cranking on the M80's, it started to run out of gas as the volume got up there.
tleigh, dam it man, say what you feel. Stop beating around the bush already. lol :-) All kidding aside, I meant what I said. That 777ES was a nice unit that drove anything I threw at it without a hitch. I'm not a huge Sony fan but I will go public when they get somthing right. The 777ES was one of them as was the DVSP-7000 and lastly the TAN-9000ES 5 channel amp is a great amplifier. I'm sure the 9000 pre is nice also but I didn't have one long enough to comment. I had it as a loner for all of a day once.
The reason for asking is that from what I have read and from what some folks that own Sony recievers say they don't recommend running them with a 4 ohm load.It has been said and I have read that Sony over rates the amp section quite a bit.
Your propably right. The 777ES seemed to hum right along. To be honest I think almost all of the big manufactures over rate there wattage. Sony would be no exception. Although If I'm not mistaken for whatever reason they seem to list there seperate amps a little more truthfully.
I'm sorry. I'm a straight up individual.
Ok, some Sony products are good. I've had bad luck with Sony in the past.
Neverhappy
I see you don't have you avatar now.Are you now looking for a happy face
.
lol It was starting to freak me out a little so I ditched it. Not sure what I will get next. How come I can't see yours either?
If I were you I would stay away from the Onkyo, I was looking at the 601 and almost bought it till someone from ecoustics forum show me that the Onkyo stuff are way over-rated, even the higher up version 901 rated at 110w x 7 only capable of putting out about half, and the test report from Sound & Vision tested the clipping occur at 50w!!! save your money and consider Harmon Kardon or Denon.
check out the test reports: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm
Wid, your avatar just shows a red X in recent posts. Note that the URL on your avatar changed from this :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/DopesLilMissJenna/capps-boom-ani-avatar.gif
to this :
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Widner/My%20Documents/My%
Looks like a partial address, maybe an unintentional edit ?
I changed yesterday does it not show a avatar?
>> changed yesterday does it not show a avatar?
Yes if your avatar is a small square with a red X in it. No if your avatar is anything else
Find a way to get a Denon 3805 in your price range. I'm very happy with my Harman Kardon AVR 230 (don't be fooled by the very conservative Watts Per Channel ratings - HK receivers have plenty of power), but wish I had the video upconversion of the Denon 3805.
As for the TV, if that is a Sony WEGA LCD screen it is the best picture out there. Every store my wife and I went into we could look around and pick the best picture and that was what we picked. One problam with them - get the warranty - to include bulb replacement. Sony has had problems with the bulbs and although you are covered for a year under the Sony warranty, when my bulb burned out (after 3 weeks) the bulbs were on backorder and it would have taken several weeks to get the new bulb in from Sony. At that point Circuit City said "Since you purchased it, the price of the TV has dropped $150 - we'll apply that to the 4 year service contract price of $399. So your choices are 1) wait until the bulb comes in from Sony, or 2) Pay $249 and have somebody at your house within an hour (on a Sunday) with a replacement bulb from another manufacturer - and you can know that any other problems like this will be solved in your home on the day of the call (if possible) for 4 years. Needless to say, I coughed up the $$$ and the replacement bulb has lasted 8 months so far...
"If I were you I would stay away from the Onkyo, I was looking at the 601 and almost bought it till someone from ecoustics forum show me that the Onkyo stuff are way over-rated, even the higher up version 901 rated at 110w x 7 only capable of putting out about half, and the test report from Sound & Vision tested the clipping occur at 50w!!! save your money and consider Harmon Kardon or Denon.
check out the test reports: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm"
Can someone explain this chart to me. Clipping at 47 watts - does that mean the 501 can ruin your speakers if you turn it up to anything more than 2/3 of the way up to it's 65 watt max?
Is there anything else important in that chart - or does it just show that onkyos are middling quality?
Thanks
There is another measurement in November of 2003 by sound and vision that says the 501 clips at 77watts driving 5 channels. Of course I am not sure I read it correctly.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/1117200314244.pdf
If you read the fine print right below the ratings. #1 states something to the effect of "while pushing all channels for more than 1 second the Onkyo pushed out 47 watts to all channels. The 77 watts was a brief peak I suppose. 47 watts all channels driven continously is what it says.
it clipped at 47 watts ? I am not understaniding I think.
Your avatar is linked to a file on your computer. That's why you can see it and we can't. You have to upload the file onto a web server.
In reply to:
some folks that own Sony recievers say they don't recommend running them with a 4 ohm load.
I've been running my DA4ES a pair of M80's (along with some 6 ohm speakers) for quite awhile now with no problem! There is a 4 ohm switch on the back which allows 4 ohm loads.
- Bill
Thanks Peter,
Hopfully it is working now.
Mr. Bill,
Its my understanding that the 4 ohm switch limits the amount of power the reciever can put out.If the reciever is 100@ 8 ohm with the switch put to 4ohm you then are not pushing the same amount of power.It is a current limiting device (the 4ohm switch).
In reply to:
Its my understanding that the 4 ohm switch limits the amount of power the reciever can put out.
That could be. OTOH, no matter what I'm listening to/watching, the 4ES has power to spare. Typical volume settings are:
HT -30dB
CD -52dB
Tuner -56dB
Considering that I have two 4 ohm towers, the center and the 2 surrounds are 6 ohm, and I have two 8 ohm rear speakers and 2 subs, the receiver is doing a great job!
- Bill
Bill,
Looking at your porfile you sure have one heck of a nice system.Glad to hear your Sony does a great job for ya
.
In reply to:
Looking at your porfile you sure have one heck of a nice system. Glad to hear your Sony does a great job for ya.
Thanks! The only problem I have is a lack of clarity in the dialog channel, but maybe only 20% of the time. This has been an ongoing problem since before I got the 4ES or the Axiom speakers, and I'm not sure if it's the center speaker, the receiver, competition with my subwoofer, bad equalizer settings, hearing impaired system operator (hope not, my wife also misses the same dialog with which I have problems), or what. I'll keep tinkering and one of these days I'll figure it out.
- Bill
I like the freaky avatar.
Thanks,
I geuss I screwed the avatar yesterday and had to have my daughter fix it today.I'm not to good at this computer stuff.
Bill
Have you tried it in the 8ohm setting.Like I said before the 4ohm setting severely limits the current available.Could your problem be that it is distorting.Just a thought.
In reply to:
Have you tried it in the 8 ohm setting.
I haven't, but I'm not so sure I'd be comfortable doing this. The manual very specifically says that if you have even a single speaker of less than 8 ohms, you must use the 4 ohm setting.
donaldekelly,
Generally they're being tested at 8ohm, it would suck even more if they were being tested at 4ohm and only put out 47w!! base on the THD rating it had to be running at 8ohm.
These Axiom and many many other speakers out there are pretty efficient, that's why it's hard to noticed when you severely under-powered them at moderate volume level, but sh!t will eventually hit the fan when you crank them up for extended period of time, just take it easy with the volume and back it down as soon as you hear those mids or tweeters distort and starting to break up, otherwise you'll burned up the voicecoils in no time. Underpower is killer....you do NOT want to drive your receiver or amp into clipping.
running your receiver/amp at 4ohm will raise the THD, lower damping factor, and components inside the amp will get much hotter than they normally were, try it and see if you can hear any difference, if your receiver/amp is only slightly warm to the touch after hours of playing and no audible difference from 8ohm to 4ohm, then you've got yourself one kickass powerhouse. :-)
In reply to:
Looking at your porfile you sure have one heck of a nice system.Glad to hear your Sony does a great job for ya.
I agree with wid, Mr. Bill: That's one kick-@$$ system you have there! I have home theater envy for sure!
BTW, a complement like that from wid is quite a complement! His system is certainly no slouch either!
In reply to:
running your receiver/amp at 4ohm
I'm not sure if you're suggesting that I run the setting at 4 or 8 ohm. But, I have been running it at the 4 setting for some time now as instructed by the manual. Tonight I'll switch it over to 8 ohms for awhile and see what happens. I'll report back here after all my testing is over.
Note that I originally said that about 20% of the movies we watch have dialog which is difficult to understand. Because of this, it might take me a week or two of testing before I decide if the 8 ohm setting improves things.
Thanks for the help!
- Bill
Bill, as Rick suggested, you really should use the 8 ohm setting. The statement in the manual is largely because of legal liability problems and the 8 ohm setting in practice is better in the vast majority of cases. The 4 ohm setting reduces the voltage which the amplifier operates at and therefore the maximum current and power which can be supplied. Since one form of Ohm's Law is that current equals voltage divided by resistance(I=V/R), when R is 4 ohms rather than 8 ohms the idea is to reduce the V so that the current doesn't get too high. But since Ohm's Law is also that power(in watts)equals voltage times current(P=VxI), reducing the maximum voltage and current available likewise reduces the maximum power available. Although the need for power is often grossly exaggerated by users, it should only be limited as a last resort(i.e. if the amp would continue to shut itself off). You shouldn't hesitate to try the 8 ohm setting. Incidentally, the fact that the volume settings aren't high in no way means that there's plenty of headroom left.
JonnK,
Its about time you chimed in here.I thought the reason for the 4 ohm setting was for liability reasons......UL listings.
Bill
If your Sony receiver is design to run specifically at 4ohm(which is doubtful) then you shouldn't hear any sound quality loss, but as I stated earlier though... the lower the impedance you dropped, the higher the THD going to rise, and damping factor will get slash in half or more, and the hotter your receiver will become, all these might not mean anything to you, but that's the nature of Class A and A/B design.
If I were you I would run it at 8ohm.
Mr. Bill:
I recently e-mailed Axiom's Alan Lofft regarding my Sony STR-DE845 home theater receiver possibly driving a pair of 4-ohm M80ti's. Here is his response to me...
In reply to:
...And no Sony A/V receiver will drive 4 ohms without severe current limiting (that means the power output to a 4-ohm load is dramatically reduced to a few watts per channel so it won't overheat). If you opt for the M80s, you'd have to sell the Sony and get either a Denon, H/K or NAD, any of which will drive the M80s with no hassles. Don't worry about 6-ohm loads with the Sony; just set it to 8 ohms.
...
Thanks for your interest in Axiom!
Cordially,
Alan Lofft
Axiom Resident Expert
So, Alan's response concurs with what JohnK and wid posted a short time ago.
Hope this helps.
DZ
P.S. FWIW, I'm going with a pair of 8-ohm M60ti's with the receiver I mentioned above.
In reply to:
If your Sony receiver is design to run specifically at 4ohm (which is doubtful)
It is only supposed to be set at 4 ohm when one or more speaker is 6 ohm or less. Since I have 5 speakers that are 6 or less, I've been using the 4 ohm setting. But, I now have it set for 8 ohm for the first time ever and am testing it now. So far things sound very good, but then they did 80% of the time at the 4 ohm setting. More later after I've tried a lot of tests . . .
- Bill
No matter what ES receiver I had from Sony I always ran it in the 8ohm setting. Everytime, all the time with no problems at all.
I have to agree with everyone else here, switch it to the 8ohm setting and watch TV.
I'm wondering if the Axiom servers cache the avatars and renew once a week. The first time I was alerted to mine being out was around when yours went out, and I'm pretty sure I nuked mine earlier in the week...
DZ,
Please post your results here on running the M60's with the Sony receiver. I posted in another thread that I am able to turn my STR DE995 up to max volume and still not get the response I want out of my Epic 50 HT w/QS8's. In response I'm going to upgrade to the Denon 2805 to see if I have better results. Best of luck.
-Sam
Will do, Spooky. I hope to be ordering my M60's sometime in October and I will report back here with my impressions.
I'm a little concerned that you're experiencing problems with your Sony STR DE995 and the Epic 50 HT with QS8's. I'm sure the Denon 2805 will provide you an improved performance from that of your Sony A/V receiver.
I really would like to say it was a fluke, but I'm not sure what the issue was other than just being underpowered. I have been running this receiver with other older speakers (2 infinity fronts- 1"tweeter 8"mid-sub, 2 small B&W rears and a *gasp* bose center channel) with zero problems and GREAT sound except for the center which sucked.
Upgraded to the axioms, and to get the same sound level I had to max out the receiver. I hope that you will have better results, there is obviously a lot of variation even within the same brand when it comes to HT components.
-Sam
Did you make sure that all the drivers are functioning properly?
OTOH, Axioms are not super sensitive speakers like Klipsch. I use a 2 channel amp to supplement my 2802 and I have more volume available (in a rather large room) than I could ever use.
You mean just open it and make sure they're moving while something is playing? I have not done a visual inspection of each driver but I also did not hear any unbalanced sound so if it failed in one tower, it would have failed in the other. But thanks for the suggestion, I will definitely check it out.
-Sam
Nah, just stick your ear up near each driver and make sure sound is coming out.
In reply to:
Nah, just stick your ear up near each driver and make sure sound is coming out.
I'm not falling for that one again!
Whaaat? I'm serious! 'sides, I don't have the remotes to your system...
That reminds me: my little boy cranked up the volume to the max when I wasn't looking. I hit play on some classical CD later and was it freakin' loud! Made the kid cry, but there wasn't a hint of distortion from my M60s. I was fairly impressed.
That extra amp sure does help.........ie extra headroom.It hasn't been taking naps on ya has it.
Nope problem solved, wid - I just leave it on 24/7.
Just kidding, chess.
In reply to:
I just leave it on 24/7.
and the problem with doing that is??????????????? lol Just giving you the gears. I leave my stuff on and I guess some here don't agree with me doing it.
Yowch! This is why I've installed a piece of plexiglass in front of my stereo equipment. He can look, but he can't touch!
Of course, it's a minor pain to move it out of the way when I want to switch out the CDs in the changer, but the little extra work is worth my sanity, and ears.
I had thought about doing that, pmb. Did you just lean it up against the rack or is it attached somehow?
The AV rack hasn't been as big of a problem as I thought it would be...yet. He keeps turning the TV on and off though. I think he likes to see the little light in the button come on. We usually say "No" very sternly and then try not to laugh.
The piece of furniture housing my A/V equipment isn't really a rack. It's a low credenza-like thing that has spaces in the middle for equipment. On the ends it has a couple doors that slide in grooves. The grooves run the entire length, so I just had a piece of plexiglass cut to size and it fits perfectly in the grooves, in between the doors.
Here is a softball - anyone want to take a swing?
I have an Onkyo 501 - a decent reciever but not a great one, I gather.
What does one get for $700 or $800 (lets say a Harmon Kardon or other best for the buck). Enough difference to get behind in the rent? Or, more precisely, not have the money to buy the new Treo 650 when it comes out?
If your 501 has preouts you could add a low budget 2 channel amp and be able to blast the higher priced receivers away. Some folks claim to be able to hear differences in the DACs of the different receivers of the same brand, but I sure couldn't (after I made the sales bastard adjust the volume levels and tone controls).
What is an example of a low budget amplifier? Brand, model, cost. Particularly cost - how much we talking?
I am not sure if my receiver has pre-outs - I don't think so.
I did see a "world class" amp for about $200 mentioned in a high budget stereo magazine a few months back. Forget the name.
The 501 does not have preouts. I'd suggest the Denon 2803 or the newer 2815 or 2115? These should provide more power (although I'm not sure if you really need it) and have pre-outs if you get the more power is better bug. The 2803 can be had for a pretty good price. I would wager that if you wait a few months you can get Denon's new amps at a discount through ecost and the like.
Thanks
I don't need more power (I need more room in my living room).
Does the THD mean anything? Some recievers have 0.05% my Onkyo has about 0.08% THDistortion.
DenonAVR 2803 $426
90 watts x 7 into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.05% THD
Dolby Digital EX, DTS-ES, DTS 96/24, and Pro Logic II decoding
16 Analog Devices 96kHz/24-bit DACs
Denon 2815 is a dvd player isn't it? Do you mean the 2805? And the 2105?
Ya those are it, I knew they didn't look right. The THD doesn't make much of a difference I don't think. I believe I heard somewhere that below 2-3% distortion is undetectable to the human ear. I'm pretty sure .03% distortion is inaudible, but I'm not an EE so I couldn't say for sure.
What's up with all the baby picture avatars?
Bunch o freaks i say..
I'm picky about the feature set so I wouldn't buy either. I also have friends who swear by both which makes it easier not to buy either. Ya have to know my friends hehe.
In reply to:
Bunch o freaks i say..
Oh, but it's much worse than that. We're
procreating freaks!
DZ,
Got the 2805 and it is most certainly an improvement over the Sony (as is to be expected). The amount of features for tuning specifically for your room is great, especially the auto setup with the microphone. It picked up distances and minute differences in the speakers to set my room up perfectly. The sound is much more crisp and clean in all facets. Good luck with your Sony, hopefully you'll get better results than I did with one.
If not...
2805 is $619 at www.pricesrite.com