OK, I have to ask a question regarding some advice that keeps popping up regarding subs, and (believe it or not!!) I'm going to keep this post shorter than 3 pages! ;>)

Frequently, the advice for a particular sub or another is based upon whether someone listens to mostly music or mostly movies. Why?

My understanding is that a sub that goes deep but booms is what people refer to as being good for movies, and one that is tight is best for music, but..... It's often said that a good speaker for music will do just as well for a movie. Accuracy in sound is the goal no matter what the source, no?

My thought is that I would always like my sub to be tight, and the deeper it goes the better it is for music AND movies.

Am I missing something in my equation?

M

This should be a good debate. There are some that feel SVS subs are better for movies vs music. I don't agree with this at all. I have heard HSU, Outlaw and a ton of other subs and my SVS does just fine with music. I honestly think that if you stay with SVS or HSU at the end of the day you will have a sub that does it all rather well.

Don't let anybody take you down the SVS subs are boomy road as it's simply not true at all.

people tend to prefer a faster and more accurate sub for music, monstrous bass extension and subsonic lower frequency below 20hz are not always necessary, though it's all personal preference, for movie it's safe to say either HSU or SVS should satisfied you.

I would have to say that you don't need as Much of a sub for music as you do for home theater. I have a tiny 100Wpc Mirage 8" sub that I bought a few years ago. It sounds very good, and does a wonderful job of filling in the bass down to about 30Hz or so. It will not give me room-shaking bass that I can feel across the room though.

That said, I bought a SVS-PB1-ISD. It is just as musical as the old Mirage, but it can move TONS of air when required to for movies.

Karp, how come you chose the PB1 over their cylinder version? say 20-39?

I agree with all that was put forth in this thread.
Any sub would be good for both although not always at the same volume level.
Type of music will depend on how large a sub one buys. For HT a larger, boomier sub is always fun for explosions and such, but unless a person really likes boomy dance music or pipe organs, they can get away with alot less for most music.

OK, so I don't want to twist this into an "HSU vs. SVS vs. Axiom" thread, but out of curiousity, is there one sub line (from ANY manufacturer) that's particularly known for being the tightest for music?

Despite the fact that I'm probably 50/50 in my listening, I think I would gladly give up some movie deep boom for a sub that really handles some tight bass lines and drums...

Mark,
Since the statement 'fast bass' is really an oxymoron (all bass flows at its physical set same speed of course), i do understand what you are getting at. Personally i've found that the tighter bass tends to come from smaller drivers. Pairing a 12" subwoofer vs. the 6" driver of the M60 as an example would provide a different level of bass sound when playing the same note. I think some ppl may refer to subs that have this character to be very 'musical'. My EP350 is great for music but the SVS i recently demoed can also play quite well, just at a lower gain setting.
I would think that the EP175 would be a very unobtrusive type of subwoofer for a music only system, but it would add nice punch, and more of it, to the low end beyond what the M60 could easily produce. I believe that the small Hsu box lineup may do the same according to reports from spiff and curtis (and others).
Just a thought.

I thought the big attribute of a "musical" sub was supposed to be less of what some people call "overhang", ie the volume of a bass note not dropping off as quickly as the underlying electrical signal.

Without researching OR measuring any subs, and acknowledging that it has been over 25 years since I looked at any of the formulae for ported enclosures, it seems that there is an obvious tradeoff that every sub designer makes in the tuning and damping of the enclosure. If you position the resonant peak down low and have low damping you can get good bass reinforcement down to lower frequencies but any frequencies in the area of the resonant peak will tend to "overhang" more than other frequencies.

If you dampen the enclosure more (less reinforcement) you have to position the resonant peak a bit higher to keep frequency response flat (since the added peak from the enclosure is smaller) but there will be relatively less overhang since less of the sound is coming from enclosure resonance / reinforcement.

The first sub would be "better for home theater" and the second sub would be "more musical and better with fast bass", all other things being equal.

I apologize in advance if this is wrong or misleading, I'm just going on what I remember from nearly 30 years ago.

JB

>>OK, so I don't want to twist this into an "HSU vs. SVS vs. Axiom" thread, but out of curiousity, is there one sub line (from ANY manufacturer) that's particularly known for being the tightest for music?

I went with the PSB sub based on a number of views that the PSBs were among the best for musical content although perhaps a bit "weak" for HT. I hadn't really clued in that Axiom was in the sub business at the time or I probably would have gone with a (fairly similar) EP350 instead. Oh well...

The generally accepted tradeoff between air movement and minimal moving mass (ie: small punchy drivers) among bassists is a 10" driver. That's why you see a lot of 4x10 array bass cabinets.

Bren R.

I have heard (quite some time ago) that the SVS subs are considered to be (slightly) tighter than the Hsus. This surprised me, considering the attitude of their websites, but hey... Virtually all SVS subs are 12s.

Bridgman,

I have also read several reviews as to how "musical" the PSB subs are. My local hi-end dealer even told me about how those (along with Athena's) are his favorite budget subs. My dad has the 5i and is does seem exceptionally tight. Hopefully in a few months I can do a shootout between his 10 inch 5i and my 10 inch STF-2. That same dealer admitted that the Hsu would go deeper and he deeply respects Dr. Hsu (as he has met him several times at CES). My vote would go for Dual STF-2's. Ultra clean, tight, and deep bass.

>>That same dealer admitted that the Hsu would go deeper and he deeply respects Dr. Hsu (as he has met him several times at CES).

The dealer I purchased the PSB from also sold Hsu subs (I went there for an STF-2) and preferred the Hsu for HT use. At the time I was looking for 90-100% music so they suggested the PSB over the STF-2.

Now that I know how good DVDs can sound through good speakers (my friends with HT tend to have great picture but crappy sound) I'm mostly using the sub for HT anyways, so in hindsight the STF-2 would probably have been a slightly better choice.

Ya, I have a feeling that the PSB subs are a "Little" tighter, but I think the Hsu's are a good trade-off for tight bass and low rumbles. I'm happy with my decision. Plus, for some reason I don't like the idea of a non-downward facing woofer.

Let me throw into the mix a very critical factor. Sub placement, sub calibration...and a huge one is sub equilization. High end subs, such as SVS (which I have) are designed to give a flat response (meaning no peaks in the Hertz spectrum). That's all fine and good, but when room acoustics and sub placement are at maximum, you may still run into an unbalanced sub frequency. I, for example, purchase the Rives Audio CD 2, which I'd recommend to anyone who uses the Radio Shack SPL meter and did a reading. Low and behold I had a spike of 6 decibals in the 50-60 Hz range! That's huge when playing at loud volumes. That will make any sub sound boomy.

So keep that in mind when shopping.

OK, still trying to decide the best option for a sub. I even wrote to Axiom yesterday, and got a reply from Alan as to which he thought might be best for my needs, but I want to throw a simple question out to all of you.

Despite many recommendations for an HSU or SVS, I think I've narrowed it down to two Axioms, the 175 VS. the 350. Although the other brands are initially, comparatively less expensive, that's pretty much offset by shipping costs. Plus, for good or for bad, I really do like the fact that the sub will match the finish of the rest of my system. Since I KNOW I need to get the sub out of my current corner placement to tighten the sound, I have no choice but to put it in a very prominant, visible place.

I really think (as did Alan from Axiom)that in my small 13' x 13' room, the 175 would do just fine. But as I've mentioned before in another post, I might be moving this whole setup to a finished attic that would be approximately 35' x 22' a couple of years down the road. Taking that into consideration, I don't want to "under buy".

So, the question: The 350 is not much more cost, nor much bigger physically, but is it "overkill" in a small room? Remember that my priority is tight, musical bass as opposed to hitting the lowest notes. If a sub is larger than needed for a particular room, do you just turn it down a bit or does it inherently become a bit boomy and/or sloppy as it couples with the room?

The other speakers will be M60s, VP150 and QS8s.

if there is a chance of moving your HT to a bigger room in the future, then yes, buy the 350. it does have a gain adjustment, so you can just adjust it down if needed, for the smaller room.

bigjohn

In a room that size, you may want to consider buying one now, say the EP350, and then after you move buy a second matching sub (another EP350). It's going to have to push a LOT more air. One sub won't cut it. At least one of the current Axiom subs won't cut it. The new models they have coming will kick your butt here or there.

I guess in all of this, what is your budget?

Mark, given the prospect of the large attic room, I'd opt for the slightly higher initial cost of the EP350. Its extra capability will not pose any problems in your current room, and it would seem like the perfect sub for your future attic installation. As MFT said, if you find that the larger room really taxes the EP350 (which I kind of doubt), you could add a second one later.