Denon 3805 Bi-Amping - Axiom Message Boards

After reading all the hoop la about being able to bi-amp your fronts with a left over channel on the 3805, I decided to try it out. I have been playing with this since yesterday. I have taken SPL readings and a ton of other things and I hate to say it but not once have I come close to the +3db people are reporting. It sounds no better or no worse then when I'm running the regular L&R amps.

Given the hype surrounding this, I was expecting more. I also did some non scientific tests using a voltmeter to the speaker leads and using the formula voltage times voltage divided by impedance to get a quick idea on the Denon's actual power output with 5 channels being driven. I did it about a dozen times and we can't get more then 75 watts per with all 5 being driven. My number is a little lower then what Secrets got but only by about 2 watts. It should be noted that using the above method is not that accurate but it's also not that bad either. We did the same thing with my HALO and we got numbers that almost matched what Parasound has in the manual.

I have no idea why I'm doing this other then the fact that I was bored!

Is there a better way to test given the fact I don't have any testing equipment other then a voltmeter?

Ok what's up here? You guys ignoring me or am I the only one here who has tried this?

Yes.

I'm ignoring you

Well I was thinking of trying the bi-amping thing at some time for fun, but I think you just saved me from wasting a bunch of my time.

Certainly appreciate hearing about your experiences with bi-amping a Denon though. Jag

Bi-amping does work but using the 3805 way that everyone has been running on about is to me at least a waste of time. Which sucks! I was looking to get a little bit more punch out of my fronts and I thought this would do it.

So I went in another direction and sold my HALO and picked up an older Parasound 2205A for all 5 channels. It's been my favourite amp for years and for whatever reason it sounds fantastic with Monitor Audio speakers.

...............................Now the bad part.......(or is it?) Wife hasn't talked to me in almost 2 day's since she found out I bought yet more stuff!

Have you said: "Just get it all over with honey, and spank me already."..?

lol I'm not so sure she would look at that as a punishment!

It's all good now anyway. She broke the ice last night by telling me she spent an obscene amount of money on a new ski jacket. Payback I guess!

Anyway, I always say this but anyone looking for what I consider to be a bargain in power, look at Parasound. This amp is simply outstanding and for whatever reason, it has a sound all it's own.............and no it's not in my head so all you pocket protector types please save your every amp on the planet sounds the same speech for someone who cares!

In reply to:
and no it's not in my head so all you pocket protector types please save your every amp on the planet sounds the same speech for someone who cares!

Nothing like offering only one side of a belief then shutting down debate with an insult.

If those who don't hear a difference in amplification circuits with similar SNR/power levels are pocket protector types, does that mean those that hear a difference in amplification circuits without any reasonable evidence why it would be so the audio rosary and chants type?

Bren R.

AND THE RACE IS ON AND HERE COME PRIDE IN THE BACKSTRETCH.. HEARTACHES, RUNNING TO THE INSIDE......

bigjohn

Figured it would have been more like Kenny Rogers "Coward of the County"

I promised you, Dad, not to do the things you´ve done
I walk away from trouble when I can
Now please don´t think I´m weak, I didn´t turn the other cheek,
And papa, I should hope you understand --
Sometimes you gotta fight when you´re a man´.

Bren R.

In reply to:
Nothing like offering only one side of a belief then shutting down debate with an insult.

Insult? If you read that as an insult, you read it wrong. Why is it an insult? I stated the truth. There are a few here that constantly push that all amps sound the same and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong and in audio never never land. Is that an insult? Hell, I'm one of the last guy's you should be pointing that finger at. I don't need to spark a reaction from people to get my rocks off. Can you say the same?

In reply to:
If those who don't hear a difference in amplification circuits with similar SNR/power levels are pocket protector types, does that mean those that hear a difference in amplification circuits without any reasonable evidence why it would be so the audio rosary and chants type?

If it makes you sleep at night, sure. Funny how a reference to pocket protectors can spark such a reaction.

In reply to:
Funny how a reference to pocket protectors can spark such a reaction.

Don't tell me your pocket protector comment was meant in the friendlest possible way. That's like saying "I only called you a moron because it's accurate."

In reply to:
I don't need to spark a reaction from people to get my rocks off. Can you say the same?

Hmm... from bi-amplification to amplifier colour to self-pleasure. An odd forum.

Bren R.

In reply to:
An odd forum

At times it can be.

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Don't tell me your pocket protector comment was meant in the friendlest possible way. That's like saying "I only called you a moron because it's accurate."

Actually I wasn't telling you anything or for that matter even talking to you but seeing as you can obviously read minds, it makes no sense for me to respond further as you already know! Trust me, if I was going to call somebody something, I would. The pocket protector comment however was nothing more then a poke at a few scientific types and not much else. Your analogy of a moron is your own and not mine. In the future keep your thoughts on what you think I was saying to yourself as you aren't even close.

Only at times? You're pretty forgiving.

Ah, but I was exactly right. In your own words, it was a poke at a few scientific types. People don't like being poked, is all I'm saying.

Point taken but unfortunately the "Types" I speak of, love to take pokes at people. If they don't like receiving, they need to stop giving. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm trying really hard to not come off sounding like an ahole but I have had it with a few in here who post this and that and speak it as the god’s truth. These guys have owned squat for the most part and have nothing other then what they have read to base their views on. If someone wants to tell me that all amps sound the same, they better have owned a lot of stuff so they can post some real world examples not just what science tells them.

Just because you read it somewhere, that doesn’t necessarily make it the gospel. A lot of people sit back and take it and I’m done taking it. This forum is getting a really bad rep at a lot of places as being full of a bunch of know it all types and although I don’t agree with that, I sure as hell can see how some would get that impression.

I still can’t believe that some people in here will post that every amp made sounds the same. I even agree that a lot of them do and I mean a lot but to say they all do, just shows that a few in here need to take a step back and remember that the 2 or 3 amps they have owned in there lifetime, really aren’t that great a reference point!

Do I dare bring up the fact that I tested my Parasound against a Crown amp on Sunday and they sounded nothing at all alike? 7 people in the room all watching football helped with the test and not one in the room failed to pick out one from the other. 7 freaking people could tell what amp I was running and when.....but according to some in here, that can't happen and It's rigged etc etc. It was dam easy to tell and I knew it would be. The moment I kicked the Crown in the bass lost a little something and for whatever reason the sound seemed to get a little brighter. I have brought this up elsewhere but I won't in here as I know the reaction I will get as it has been proven time and time again.

In reply to:
If someone wants to tell me that all amps sound the same, they better have owned a lot of stuff so they can post some real world examples not just what science tells them. Just because you read it somewhere, that doesn’t necessarily make it the gospel.

Hmmm. I've read somewhere that the Earth revolves around the Sun, but I've never actually observed it myself, yet I believe it. I also read and learned about evolution in high school and college, and I believe in it despite having never personally observed it. The fact is, when science weighs in on a subject, I tend to side with science.

Now, can you find me a specific example when somebody has said every amp sounds the same? I can find many of examples where people have said a lot amps sound the same (which you agree with), but none that uncategorically say ALL amps sound the same.

About the Crown and Parasound amps, do they both have the same frequency responses from 20Hz to 20kHz? If not, then of course they're going to sound different. Were they calibrated so they were both playing at the exact same dB level? If not, then of course they sounded different. If you're going to do a conclusive comparison, you have to make sure all your variables are minimized.

I don't doubt that you heard differences. Nobody is calling you crazy. Granted, there are some folks on here that are a bit heavy-handed with their use of science, but they are in the minority. If you don't think the majority of people here are like that, it doesn't help this forum's "rep" by calling attention to them in your rant.

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This forum is getting a really bad rep at a lot of places

If those places are Audio Asylum and Ecoustics and all the places where "anything is possible", then that's a good thing.

Like a Propagandhi album that gives the band a bad rep with the current administration, or an ACLU lobby that doesn't sit well with the Ku Klux Klan, that's pretty much a hallmark of achievement of a goal.

I don't do forums. I was intrigued by the professionals and advanced hobbiests that I first found here.

By the way, I had this argument with my brother tonight, on one hand he has done audio engineering (putting him on the cusp) and he's also a musician (who are mostly voodoo types) and it turned from "can an amp be warm/neutral/forward/bright/Irving" into "how I can force an amp to sound different by ensuring the limiter electronics kick in/selecting radically different gain stages/input sections on each of the two amps"

Bren R.

In reply to:
he's also a musician (who are mostly voodoo types)

Being an old guitar player I would agree with that. I had an old Fender amp from the late 70's that I swore up and down sounded better then my 5150 Peavey half stack. In the end I'm fairly sure I was wrong but it took me forever to get my head around it.

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Were they calibrated so they were both playing at the exact same dB level? If not, then of course they sounded different. If you're going to do a conclusive comparison, you have to make sure all your variables are minimized.

As for people saying all amps sound the same, search out these forums and you will find your answer.

As for my little test. Yes both amps ran at the exact same DB level and both got calibrated. I'm not some kid who just fell off the truck you know!

I take a lot of time when I'm playing with stuff and I try and make it as accurate as I know how. I posted awhile back about bi-amping a couple of Carver amps and got some negative reaction from a few. Funny part was soon as I posted that I was bi-amping via the correct method of using separate crossovers etc, everyone shut up. It just proved that a few who piped up that bi-amping doesn't do squat, didn't even know the basics behind doing it correctly. Hell I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me why 2 stereo amps sounded so bad in MONO? I have no idea and I still don't get why.................but anyway, I'm rambling and it's early and I need my Robin's coffee!

NH-that pocket protector thing was rude and an insult.
BrenR-the rosary bit was rude and an insult.

Now will both of you shut up?! GOD I'm sick of this.

Disclaimer-yes, I have played the game before. Yes, I am a hypocrite. Deal.

didnt someone ask something about bi-amping??

bigjohn

Yes, it was bi-amping (tube vs solid state) electrostatic speakers and cable matching for break-in and whether it mattered to use a warm or laid back amp, whether to use program audio from a Browns game in MP3 format or from a CNN report on Al-Queda in Ogg Vorbis format.

Bren R.

i think you almost got 'em all bren..

you didnt mention anything about the wait time..

bigjohn

Actually I never got into the tube vs everything else debate. I stayed clear of that one as I don't know enough about tubes to comment either way!

But I have owned enough amps and receivers to have a basis for comparison so..........I speak!

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you didnt mention anything about the wait time..

The wait time? EVERYONE'S on the same page there - I WANN'EM NOW!!!

Bren R.

Hey..........me again. I still can't get over this Parasound. Forgot the fact that it may or not have a nice warm sound to it but DAM does this thing have power reserves out the ying yang. I picked it up for a little under a grand and I kid you not, this thing has power to burn. I have always been a Parasound fan and this amp made me an even bigger fan. By the time I sold my HALO it was more or less pocket change to pay for the 2205A and what a difference from the HALO. Yes they more or less sound the same but you can sure tell the 2205A is pushing almost twice the power.

I have always been an amps over wattage guy but I'm curious, does the fact that this amp pushes over 60amps peak per channel have anything to do with what I keep calling the warm sound?

In case anyone cares, here are some specs on the amp: (If anyone is looking at going with a 5 channel separate, I strongly suggest giving this one a go!)

Continuous Power Output - Each Channel: 220 watts RMS x 5, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 8 ohms, all channels driven; 300 watts RMS x 5, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 4 ohms, all channels driven
Current Capacity: 60 amperes peak per channel
kVA Toroid power transformer with independent secondary windings for each channel, 150,000 µF power supply filter capacitance
Slew Rate: 130 V/µsecond
Power Bandwith: 5 Hz - 100 kHz, +0/-3 dB at 1 watt
Total Harmonic Distortion: < 0.03 % at full power
IM Distortion: < 0.03 %
TIM: unmeasurable
Dynamic Headroom: > 1.5 dB
Interchannel Crosstalk: > 80 dB at 1 kHz; > 60 dB at 20 kHz
Input Sensitivity: 1 V for 28.28 V, THX Reference Level; 1.5 V for full output
Input Impedance: 33 k ohms
S/N Ratio: > 118 dB, full power; > 96 dB, THX Reference
Level Damping Factor: > 1000 at 20 Hz
Power Consumption: 1500 watts
Dimensions: w 19" x h 7" x d 19 1/2", h 7 5/8" with feet
Net Weight: 85 lb.

http://www.parasound.com/products/amplifiers/hca2205atspecs.html

Whoa... you took the time to find the pico symbol for picofarads!

Bren R.

I can cut and paste with the best of them!

I think you mean microfarads, as µF is microfarards.

Microfarad: µF (1 µF = 10-6 F)
Nanofarad: nF (1 nF = 10-9 F)
Picofarad: pF (1 pF = 10-12 F)

interesting...the "audio engineering expert" that never shuts up....is surprising silent when he makes a basic mistake that even a high school electrical student would not have made!!!

abcd,dont be a dick

It's pointless to attack a member for a simple mistake. We all make them. No need to be an ass hole on your 14th post!

Maybe he knows of no other way to be.What's up with all the dickheads just coming over and posting some ignorant crapp with nothing of substance to share

.

Easy there buddy...I meant no malice with my post.

Those of us who have been in the business for a long time (almost 20 years of electronics/IT/electrical engineering for me) and have a great volume of knowledge and experience make simple mistakes, just as everyone else does. Sometimes it is the most insignificant item that slips our detail oriented natures. We also tend to look for the most complex answer to a situation, when sometimes it is the simplest that solves the problem.

Anyway, I was not attacking Bren, simply pointing out a misplaced reference. Sorry if I caused an issue.

I don't think you had anything to do with causing an issue.

In reply to:
It's pointless to attack a member for a simple mistake. We all make them. No need to be an ass hole on your 14th post!

Agreed.

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I also find I misspell the words "broccoli", "independent" and "jewellery".

Something's got to keep me from being perfect.

Bren R.