I know this subject has been discussed often, but I was refering to a few specific subs. I have now found out that my 21-2 x 21-8 HT room (future room) will have 22 ft. at the peak vaulted ceings, in addition it opens into the kitchen area, has anyone used/heard the HSU dual powered 2 12" drivers clyinder subs TN1220-HO powered with a seperate 500 watt HSU amp.
http://www.hsustore.com/tn1220ho-800.html
I am debating these, or (2) 525watt powered 16-46 SVS or (2) 525 watt powered pc-ultras, any thoughts on the 3 choices? Thanks Jon
Why not email HSU and SVS? I emailed SVS when I was looking and they were very helpful in finding the right sub for me. The size of the room in cubic ft seemed to be the most important factor in determining the size and quantity of the sub(s). Of course with a vaulted ceiling, you'll have to dust off that old trig book to figure the volume.
jon, I second the suggestion. Give SVS a call and they'll steer you in the right direction. Have you considered the new Axiom beasts? That is some major woofage. Cranked up to full, it might even be enough to fend off a Category 5 hurricane!
Given the choices, I would take the TN1220's or the PC-Ultras.
Give both companies a call....both have great support, but somewhat different styles. It is well worth the research.
I have thought about the ep600, wish I knew more, or could read a true review of it. One problem that I have, and others may have with the Axiom 600 beast sub, is I can buy 2 of the HSU, and their seperate amp for less (also free shipping) than the (1) 600. Not that 2 makes em better, but I think they are 2 proven subs, and SVS 2 subs, either the 16-46s or the 16-39s 525 watt powered, would cost about the same as 1 Axiom, 2 ultras would only be a bit more $$$. I talked with SVS, and sent their staff a plan of the room, waiting back on their reply. Did not know if HSU had the ability to do that.
Price and power between SVS PC-Ultra and EP500 are comparable, aren't they? I would get the EP500 to match with the other Axiom speakers.
Yep...email Dr. Hsu, and he'll generally get back with your quickly, and personally.
this is no brainer, 2 PC-Ultra all the way!!
I had an extended conversation with Axiom last night,like 20 minutes. Explained my wants, the room plan, and emailed the floor plan. They "CLAIM" that that EP500 with largely outperform the SYS ultra. I thought this was a very bold statement, and was a little surprised, as all my past conversations they have been very subdued in claims and comparisons. They suggested (2) EP500 or (1) EP600. Ironically there is one dollar difference in cost between the 500 and an ultra (but 27 bucks to ship the ultra) So all I need is Jag to cart his 70 pound 500 over to someones house with the ultra, and face-em-off!!! So bottom line, I am still perplexed on these subs.
joninflorida, I'm shocked and a little disappointed that Axiom would make that statement. I have serious doubts that the EP500 would "Largely Outperform" the SVS PC-Ultra. I have put my Ultra up against more then one sub and have yet to see it handily beat. Some have come close and they have ALL been smaller HSU's but none to date have gone as deep and none have maintained the control that the SVS has showed. Has Axiom purchased a PC-Ultra and done side by side tests to make these claims? If they have, I would love to see the results. I'm sure the boy's over at SVS would also like to see them.
However with that being said, if anyone near me wants to haul over a EP-500, we can get at it in my basement and see what shakes.
They were very complimentary of the SVS, and HSU subs. Without naming names, it is the same person I have bought all 7 of my Axioms from, and never in the past did I feel pushed, of was the truth streched, in fact they were the ones that told me to get the m-60s and not the 80s, but that was because of my present room size, but I wanted the 80s and they talked me "down" if you will. I was told they took several years to develop those 2 subs, and compared them direct with most top performing subs, and named SVS and HSU by name, I told them I was considering 2 ultras, or 2 HSU's 1220 cylinders with the 500 watt outboard amp. Some of the technical stuff went over my head, but the main logic was the digital/analog amp, and the flat response it brings that others don't have. They had sold 35 of the 500s and 16 of the 600s to date, I was told.
What is wrong with your current sub set-up?
Just remember, there is much more to a sub than just being able to play low and loud.
No matter how flat a frequency response a sub has....which I think is great to have....it gets messed up as soon as you put it into a room. The current implementaion of the digital control on the EP500 and EP600 do not take into account the room.....they assume they are in an anechoic situation.
It's not that their terrible. They sound good in my small room. I got them used and they are now 8 years old. they are a fairly small cabinet, which is good on floorspace, but lacks the impact that a big unit has. This whole thing happened when I went to a customers house, and heard a rel stenator sub. I was, and still am in awe, but check out their price. I went home and have had a problem with my 2 ever since. I know that sounds stupid, but combine that with the fact that I am building my first house ever, and you start thnking upgrade time. The new room has a lot of total volume - cubic feet. I don't see me being happy with the 12" earthquakes. They are not as musical as I would like, in addition I have neighbor that wants to buy them, he is thrilled with them, but he's never heard anything good before. Throw in the right flick, and they can be very "booming" impressive if you have not compared others. I quess I am like a lot of people here, we replace idems that are perfectly "acceptable" you should know that better than anyone ---------- "neverhappy"
Jon,
Now that I understand your room better, your right. You do need new subs!!!!!
In reply to:
Just remember, there is much more to a sub than just being able to play low and loud.
No matter how flat a frequency response a sub has....which I think is great to have....it gets messed up as soon as you put it into a room. The current implementaion of the digital control on the EP500 and EP600 do not take into account the room.....they assume they are in an anechoic situation.
Curtis, I agree with you 110%!
jon, there isn't much knowledge or experience yet with the EP500. However, let's think about Axiom making this claim. They are the experts and would be in a position to know how the SVS compares. They also do a pretty good job with audio, as we know. Here is the biggie - I have NEVER seen or heard any criticism of their advice or it's veracity and they never oversell or overcommit. Finally, they have a 30 day return policy. If I was in the market and was going to spend the dollars at this level, I'd certainly give the EP500 a try based on their recommendation. Just my $.02.
Hi Curtis and all,
What you say is absolutely true, but the room's dimensions, sub locations and your location will affect the response of every subwoofer in any room.
But you can still make relative judgments if you place each subwoofer in the same location in the room. If you have competitive subwoofers in different locations in a room and you are comparing them, there is a high probability (if you hear differences in performance) that the differences are largely due to placement issues, not to intrinsic differences in performance.
I did some listening tests of the EP500 and EP600 vs. several other brands during my extended stay at Axiom last month, and I can tell you that the EP500 has greater extension to lower frequencies (and greater output at those frequencies) than the other two subs. The EP600 has even more, so much so that folks in the Axiom office were complaining of the pulsing low frequencies from the adjoining listening room when I ran the EP600 at high levels.
This was only a preliminary test, and although levels were carefully adjusted, the test was not "blind." But even when I stared at the switcher, which was not labeled as to which sub was which, it was apparent that the low-frequency extension of the 500 and 600 clearly outstripped the competition. I'll have more to report in the future.
Regards,
Alan, that is great! Can't wait until a third party gets one for a comparison or evaluation. It would be wonderful if you could get one to hometheaterhifi.com for a review.
"I did some listening tests of the EP500 and EP600 vs. several other brands during my extended stay at Axiom last month, and I can tell you that the EP500 has greater extension to lower frequencies (and greater output at those frequencies) than the other two subs".
OK, the 64,000 question, what are the "two" subs???????
Hi Alan,
In reply to:
Has Axiom purchased a PC-Ultra and done side by side tests to make these claims?
Well....................................? If you have I would love to see the results. As I have said before there are a lot of claims being made about the EP500 and EP600 that in all honesty are not much more then marketing hype. When you guys have more, let me know. If these things are that good, I may just buy one! :-) But then again, if they are that good, how long will be it be before HSU and SVS who are true subwoofer manufactures come out with something new that blows them out of the water?
In reply to:
Has Axiom purchased a PC-Ultra and done side by side tests to make these claims?
Well....................................? If you have I would love to see the results. As I have said before there are a lot of claims being made about the EP500 and EP600 that in all honesty are not much more then marketing hype.
Jeez John. I haven't heard or seen any 'hype." Joninflorida said "They "CLAIM" that that EP500 with largely outperform the SYS ultra." If you choose to not believe this claim, that's fine. But your knee jerk reaction, and challenge, smacks of the need to defend your purchase.
You said:"
I have serious doubts that the EP500 would "Largely Outperform" the SVS PC-Ultra." Have YOU done "side by side tests" with those two subs, or is your opinion simply based on the fact that you own an SVS PC-Ultra? Well.....................................?
In reply to:
But then again, if they are that good, how long will be it be before HSU and SVS who are true subwoofer manufactures come out with something new that blows them out of the water?
What's your point? After that happens, Axiom, or av123, or the new company being started by Craigsub will come out with something that blows the HSU and SVS out of the water. And then HSU and SVS will bring out something that blows THEM out of the water, and on and on it will go. SO?
Hi Jack, I don't wanna get tit-for-tat, but I wanted to be clear. Axiom did not specify the "ultra" which is the top of the line SVS cylinder sub. They said it "largly outperformed" the SVS and HSU subs, I did not pin them down exact models, maybe I should of, but it was just a general synopsis. I would have to assume they were speaking of subs in the same dollar/market arena. The ultra and the 500 are with-in one dollar in price!!! They did side by side direct comparisons in the same enviroment, and the Axiom was "amazing" and "dominent" As with anything, time will tell.
John, I've got to agree with Jack here. I think you're being overly confrontational. I also think there is a useful distinction between good-natured eagerness for third-party reviews and comparisons, and the baseless cynicism you're conveying. In return for what has always been an unmoderated and completely open forum, I think we owe Axiom a modicum of respect here.
Well...Hsu doesn't have a sub in the same dollar market.
The VTF-3MK2 is $700(even for the rosewood now) and the TN1220 with 500 watt amp is $1000....maybe it was that one.
Eventhough this is the Axiom forum, it would be nice to know model and data specifics. We all know how heated speculative discussions can get.
Curtis you are right, I looked, and still am at the 1220s real close, it's funny if you buy the amp, and (1) 1220 it's 1000.00, and you can buy another 1220 (passive) for 499.00. 1500.00 bucks
If you buy the "package" (2) 1220s and the SAME sub, exact same set-up it's 1697.00. 200 bucks less to buy seperate, go figure. It looks like a hell of a set-up for 1500.00, but I am leary of a 52" tall, top woofer, 12: ruond sub. That baby is narrow, light, and all top-heavy, if you touch that thing, it's going over, it only uses 3 floor spikes, why not 4 with that design. I would think it would be easy enough to "fabricate" a weighted base I guess. But wht should you, anyone with these speakers care to comment?
Curtis, I agree with you. My curiosity is piqued.
However, I do not expect any Axiom representative to come out in writing and cite specific performance comparisons between their products and those of rival manufacturers. This practice would be especially dangerous relative to subs, whose performance is perceived as more easily quantifiable than other loudspeaker products. I've not seen the other companies do so - and for good reason. Such comparisons are, by definition, biased. More importantly, they serve to alienate devotees of other brands who might have otherwise become potential customers. Finally, it's just bad form to throw down the gauntlet in the face of a rival unless you are absolutely convinced you can win - not just the battle, but the war. It's best to leave the measurement and comparisons to those who can be objective - credible consumers and trade publications.
I just don't think it's reasonable to expect Alan or Ian or anybody from Axiom to publicly divulge the specifics of their technical or marketing research. The prior third-hand references in this thread were made in the context of a sales pitch - I fully expect each of these companies to tell me that their subs outperform the others.
I think what we're all eager for is additional, real world reviews of the new Axiom products. I'd like to continue to express that eagerness without disparaging either the conduct of a salesperson doing his job, or the motives of the manufacturer.
What we need here is a special project by craigsub.
jon...good observation...I missed that. I bet an email to them will clear the pricing up...must be a mistake.
As for the spikes, I have no clue.
Tom....in principal, I agree with you, but Alan already mentioned the two companies.
I will eagerly await a third party comparison or review.
I called HSU, it is exactley that, they have a promo on the singe 1220 and amp, works out 200 bucks less going seperately.
Curtis, I find only one post by Alan in this thread and nowhere do I find him mentioning the name of any other manufacturer. Did I miss it, or did this occur somewhere else? If so, can you steer me to it?
So far, Jon has said that an unspecified employee of Axiom made the (quoting verbatim again) ""CLAIM" that that EP500 with largely outperform the SYS ultra." Jon has now amended that statement saying "Axiom did not specify the "ultra" which is the top of the line SVS cylinder sub. They said it "largly outperformed" the SVS and HSU subs, I did not pin them down exact models, maybe I should of, but it was just a general synopsis."
If this is accurate, I would submit it was an obviously biased opinion, made in a private conversation by an employee to a potential customer. It was not published, nor was it an official statement made by the company. Since there has been only one official review of the EPs, that I'm aware of, and NO "official" direct comparison of them with subs by other manufacturers, what is the big tadoo about. It's all speculation.
Jack...you are absolutely correct....I stand corrected.
I think I read more into it here:
In reply to:
I did some listening tests of the EP500 and EP600 vs. several other brands during my extended stay at Axiom last month, and I can tell you that the EP500 has greater extension to lower frequencies (and greater output at those frequencies) than the other two subs. The EP600 has even more, so much so that folks in the Axiom office were complaining of the pulsing low frequencies from the adjoining listening room when I ran the EP600 at high levels.
This was only a preliminary test, and although levels were carefully adjusted, the test was not "blind." But even when I stared at the switcher, which was not labeled as to which sub was which, it was apparent that the low-frequency extension of the 500 and 600 clearly outstripped the competition. I'll have more to report in the future.
Thanks Curtis. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't mistaken. Ain't it weird how things get quickly blown out of proportion?
Jack, The much tadoo is totally correct, But when you say I "amended" my statement about the SVS ultra, I never said Axiom said ultra, therefore I can't amend something I never said, I just wanted to clarify that in my earlier post to you. The reference was to SVS, and HSU, NOT model specific. I can only assume they were speaking of "similar models" I think we can draw some conclusions based on price and marketplace. There was never exact model numbers, and in casuel conversation your right, there did not have to be, I was just stating the gist of where Axiom felt their subs stand aganist the competition. Knowing the competition, thats a heck of a statement, thats all I said. I was surprised, thats all. If they are right, I could not be happier, afterall I own 7 of their speakers. Jon
Jack, after reviewing all posts, I DID say ultra I STAND CORRECTED, That was the sub that I have had on my mind as far as comparisons, I do not think Axiom said "ultra" but I very much Know SVS, HSU, my apology, It would have been easier to go back and delete that post of a few minutes ago, but I was mistakened on the "ultra" statement, nobodys fault but mine on that one. Adding to the problem, I hope not, the principal is the same, again, sorry. Jon
No problem Jon. I'm glad you realized you did say "Ultra." I was copying and pasting directly from your post, and it was frustrating to have you say you didn't use that word. I'm sure, based on what you had to say above, that being that specific was not your intention. Unfortunately John (NeverHappy) seized on that word, and "went to the mattresses."
No harm done. We have it straightened out now. To quote the Bard, much ado about nothing.
It's obvious, that the EP500 and EP600 are, as yet, unknown quantities. However, I wouldn't, out of hand, dismiss what the Axiom employee had to say. He's surely had more experience with those subs than anyone here. Nonetheless, I recommend that we all just cool our jets until we get more information from a variety of sources.
In reply to:
But your knee jerk reaction, and challenge, smacks of the need to defend your purchase.
Looking at your post, don't you think it's a little of the pot calling the kettle black? Don't be to quick to judge me. Your own post is walking the same road. I don't need nor have I ever needed to defend anything I purchase. If you re-read I included both SVS and HSU in my statements and I don't own a HSU.
In reply to:
What's your point?
My point is simple and if you didn't get it here it is again. If in fact these subs are soooooooo good, Axiom should prove it.
In reply to:
Ain't it weird how things get quickly blown out of proportion?
What exactly has been blown out of proportion? I'm lost on this one. I posted based on some comments that an Axiom employee made. I then re-posted with some questions for Alan and a whole lot of other people felt the need to pipe up.
Alan makes this remark:
In reply to:
and I can tell you that the EP500 has greater extension to lower frequencies (and greater output at those frequencies) than the other two subs.
Given what most of this thread has been about I would think it's safe to assume we are dealing with SVS or HSU. All I want to know is what 2 subs?
In reply to:
John, I've got to agree with Jack here. I think you're being overly confrontational. I also think there is a useful distinction between good-natured eagerness for third-party reviews and comparisons, and the baseless cynicism you're conveying. In return for what has always been an unmoderated and completely open forum, I think we owe Axiom a modicum of respect here.
To each there own. Overly confrontational? What qualifies you to make that statement? Baseless cynicism? I'm not making any claims at all. I'm questioning what has been said to date. Free speech go south in here or what? And sorry but I don't owe Axiom anything. I have bought more then my fair share and a whole lot of people I know are running Axiom based on my recommendations.
They choose to allow this forum to run un-moderated and sometimes questions will be asked that they may not like. For the most part I'm a fan of Axiom but the reaction in here when I post something that isn't blowing smoke up Axiom's you know what is comical to say the least.
I'm sorry but Axiom is only allowed so many HSU/SVS questions (as per the SubWoofer Manufacturers Bulletin Board Agreement of 1995) and this post uses up the 2004 quota.
Please refrain from posting about all subwoofers except Axiom, until January 1st. 2005.
In reply to:
Looking at your post, don't you think it's a little of the pot calling the kettle black?
Not at all. I wasn't defending any purchase I've made, you were. You say you weren't?
I quote you verbatim "
I'm shocked and a little disappointed that Axiom would make that statement. I have serious doubts that the EP500 would "Largely Outperform" the SVS PC-Ultra. I have put my Ultra up against more then one sub and have yet to see it handily beat. Some have come close and they have ALL been smaller HSU's but none to date have gone as deep and none have maintained the control that the SVS has showed." I don't know how you define "defending your purchase," but that fits mine.
P.S. Read Jon's most recent posts. He now admits he made an honest error. The Axiom employee did NOT mention the ultra specifically.
If your "pot calling the kettle black" comment was in reference to my using some of the same confrontational, challenging, tactics you used in your posts, such as "Well.....................................?" I plead guilty as charged. I figured if you felt comfortable challenging Axiom on a "claim" they may have made, you certainly wouldn't object if I challenged your unsupported opinion.
In reply to:
My point is simple and if you didn't get it here it is again. If in fact these subs are soooooooo good, Axiom should prove it.
My question, "what's you point," had no reference to Axiom's claims and your challenge that they "prove" it. Here, again, is your comment verbatim:
"
But then again, if they are that good, how long will be it be before HSU and SVS who are true subwoofer manufactures come out with something new that blows them out of the water?"
I ask you again, what is the point of the statement "how long will it be ..........etc? As I said, someone is always bringing out a product that top the previous product. Again, I ask. So? That statement seems designed simply to insult Axiom by saying no matter how good their new subs are, some REAL sub makers will soon bring out something better and put them in their place. You seem to be implying is that because Axiom is not "true" subwoofer manufacturer, those who are, will make better subs. It ain't necessarily so.
In reply to:
What exactly has been blown out of proportion? I'm lost on this one. I posted based on some comments that an Axiom employee made. I then re-posted with some questions for Alan and a whole lot of other people felt the need to pipe up.
You said "
As I have said before there are a lot of claims being made about the EP500 and EP600 that in all honesty are not much more then marketing hype. A LOT of claims. I've only heard one ALLEGED claim ALLEGEDLY made by an Axiom employee in a private phone conversation. Yet you choose to characterize this ALLEGED statement as "marketing hype." Was that supposed to be considered complimentary? If you are referring to anything stated about these subs on the Axiom web site itself, OF COURSE that's marketing, and EVERYBODY knows it's unsupported advertising, and NOBODY is saying that it's true. The truth is we have no independent CLAIMS on the performance of theses subs. So to say "
I have serious doubts that the EP500 would "Largely Outperform" the SVS PC-Ultra as you stated, is no more, nor less, unreliable than stating otherwise. Plus we had people accusing Alan of saying things he didn't say. This all adds up to "being blown out of proportion."
John, I had no objections to what you said, I objected to the way you chose to say it. I'm not the only one that found them confrontational, challenging, insulting to Axiom, baseless, cynical, rude and unnecessary. Yes you've got the right to say what you want. You also must bear the consequences of doing so.
This is getting old real fast but I just can't help myself from feeling that I'm on the stand and it's my turn to talk.
In reply to:
You say you weren't?
You got it. I wasn't. Going to call me a liar now?
In reply to:
I figured if you felt comfortable challenging Axiom on a "claim" they may have made, you certainly wouldn't object if I challenged your unsupported opinion.
I think it has more to do with the fact that you didn't like my opinion but I can't prove it either way and unlike you, I don't make claims to know what you meant when you post. I also must have missed the memo with the news that you got appointed the Axiom spokesperson. I asked Alan a question, not you.
In reply to:
how long will it be ..........etc?
Looking back I can see that my remark was probably not worded the best. But I stand firm on my basic point. Do I think that SVS and HSU who basically do nothing but manufacture subs make better ones then Axiom? Yep, I do. If you don't agree, cool and who knows I may be wrong but time will tell. Last time I checked however SVS and HSU's reputation when it comes to subs is second to none. Can Axiom make the same claim? I'm not talking about speakers here, just subs which is what this discussion is about.
In reply to:
You seem to be implying is that because Axiom is not "true" subwoofer manufacturer, those who are, will make better subs. It ain't necessarily so.
That is your opinion and it differs from mine but that is what a discussion like this is all about. I don't agree but again, time will tell.
In reply to:
these subs on the Axiom web site itself, OF COURSE that's marketing, and EVERYBODY knows it's unsupported advertising, and NOBODY is saying that it's true.
It's funny how many threads I have seen in here condemning other manufactures for making unsubstantiated claims. From what a receiver will push in the way of power to what a cable can and can not do all the way to speaker break-in. Apparently those same thoughts go out the window when it's an Axiom product.
In reply to:
I have serious doubts that the EP500 would "Largely Outperform" the SVS PC-Ultra as you stated, is no more, nor less, unreliable than stating otherwise.
Perhaps but at least factual third party testing has been done on the SVS.
In reply to:
I'm not the only one that found them confrontational, challenging, insulting to Axiom, baseless, cynical, rude and unnecessary.
My sincere apologies if anyone was offended but I stand by my post and every other post in this thread. If you find my post's baseless, cynical, rude and unnecessary again I'm sorry. Perhaps ignore them and move on. You report that some found my post harsh. I also find it interesting that I have had a few people report that they had no issue of any kind with it. I guess it just comes down to the way we all take things.
OK, enough. I found your post harsh and a bit unsubstantiated in and of itself. I wasn't going to get into this, but damn, dude... Have you compared the two? If not, then hey, lighten up on Axiom. If you haven't heard a product, then how can you make the claim?
Nevermind Ken. There is no hope. He just continues to deny what he put in black and white. It's a waste of time.
Could I gently suggest that this thread is getting a bit too intense and personal ? If a few misplaced words are enough to push us over the edge, maybe we need to step back a few feet.
have you guys ever see the Frequency Res. graph of the EP500 and EP600? I keep hearing how good they are but it would be nice if we get to see something, maybe it's time for someone to compare them side by side, I would LOVE to see how the EP stack up with others. ;-)
Here's a link with some curves. Haven't compared them to other subs yet. The one interesting thing is the behavior at very high volumes and very low frequencies, which I assume is a result of the DSP kicking in and reducing volume to keep the sound clean.
Hi Jack !!
In reply to:
There is no hope. He just continues to deny what he put in black and white.
Gimme a break. I'm not denying anything. I have stood fast on my position. I also didn't think you would go as far as to call me a liar, but that appears to be what you are doing.
In reply to:
It's a waste of time.
Well dam, we finally agree on something.
In reply to:
Have you compared the two?
That is not the point.
You guys are all caught up in the Ultra aspect of it. Part you missed was I don't care which SVS and HSU models Alan was talking about. I just want to know which ones. Is that a difficult question? Jack is under the impression I need to defend my purchase. Two things wrong with it. First, does he really think I care what he thinks? Second, I don't need to defend anything to anyone. Thinking otherwise is somewhat arrogant. This went past the whole Axiom vs. a SVS Ultra a long time ago. Alan mentioned two competing subs. I want to know which ones. What the hell is wrong with that question? I may have worded it wrong and have already apologized and clearly stated that if my initial post offended anyone I was truly sorry. I'm not doing it again.
You guys have blown this into far more then it was intended to be. So STOP pointing your holier then though finger at me. Get off your high horse already and please stop telling me what I meant in my posts and what I was thinking in one of my posts. It's dam annoying and trust me, your both wrong.
You can do this
In reply to:
and cut and paste all day long but I'm done with this thread. This went nowhere fast and if it makes you feel better, blame me.
In reply to:
Could I gently suggest that this thread is getting a bit too intense and personal ? If a few misplaced words are enough to push us over the edge, maybe we need to step back a few feet.
Agreed.............and with that, I'm out.