I have a difficult time understanding how some people find it absolutely necessary, and almost essential, to drop more than 10K—let alone 40K—on a set of speakers. I fully realize this would be a naive comment, if I were a person who was simply stating this based on monetary comparison alone; however, that is not the case with my latest experience.
I recently had the opportunity to audition Sonus Faber’s Stradivarius Speakers and B&W’s Nautilus 800s. Both were in the same custom audio room, connected to the latest Rotel—and other hardware I’ve never heard of before. I listened to the same CD and the same track for many minutes, to compare as many aspects of the speakers as I could. Granted, this audition was flawed in that I was not able to sample multiple genres of music, nor was I able to do it over a length of time; however, my five minute impression was fascinating. I was very unimpressed with the quality-to-price ratio of the Sonus Fabers Stradivarious, when compared to the B&W’s. The Stradivarious retailed at $40,000; the B&W’s price was $16,000. I left the store thinking the B&W has more depth, more clarity, more soundstage, more tight bass and definitely better more clear treble all for $24,000 LESS. Is that just me? I have a hard time believing it was, since I’ve often been told I have a very acute ear and insight into what is right and wrong with audio--besides the obvious fact that $24,000 has to sound SIGNIFICANTLY better to ever be worth it. But it wasn't significantly better.
My point with this post is the more I experience (audition), read, and learn, the more I realize the high fidelity industry is driven by prime movers who have mal intent that often translates into wasted effort and money to many consumers. Said differently (and more plainly) the perception of quality, equated with expensive speakers because of their cost, drives many to spend more than simply the quality of sound the speakers produce.
Sadly, like many other successfully industries, profit corrupts. Since I was young, I’ve been very well acquainted with the automobile sales industry. I’ve heard—and even seen—many of the scams that are evident in that line of business. Why would the audio industry be any different? You have rip-offs in the matrices, diamonds, furniture, you name it industry. Why would Hifi audio be any different? So in the end, all I can say is…Buyer Beware; don’t simply skip past folks such as Axiom, because .."how could a speaker the costs only $900 ever sound very good…."
I don't think ANYONE on this board would pay anywhere near those $$$$$$$$ for speakers..........is a reply by "BBIBH" coming?
Interesting viewpoint, which I agree with. I trust my ears much more than a list price ranking or marketing hype. Monster Cable is a prime example of sizzle vs. substance. Thank goodness for folks like Axiom, Onyx, Ascend, etc. to provide an excellent value alternative.
In this thread
Here I did an extensive week long comparision between M60s and Meadowlark Blue Heron 2s ($12000). A friend temporarily loaned them to me while he was having renovation done. I did over 100 A/B tests using a variety of material.
I had the same initial questions: would there be any difference? How much?
To most listeners they were considerably better. IMO they're not $11,100 better, but that's just MSRP. High end speakers are often considerably discounted (varies by brand). Probably $7k is a better "street" number.
I am very happy with my M60s. Also comparisions should include 2.1 and 5.1 config to the fancy stereo speakers. Wny? those additional surround/sub speakers are still cheaper than the high end stereo speakers.
Speaker sound and voicing is very individualistic, like food or wine. There's no single "sonic truth".
After my extensive comparision I was convinced for well-endowed individuals the Meadowlarks are worth it. It's not snake oil, it's not psychological -- they are really better (to most listeners), at least stereo vs stereo.
Also if external appearance is important, some high end speakers are aesthetically beautiful. That alone is sufficient for some people. However Rockets are pretty nice looking. My dedicating HT room is lighting controlled -- you can barely see the speakers, so Axiom is perfect for me. For other people with an extensive investment in furniture, wood flooring, etc speaker finish and aesthetic design is a bigger factor.
If multichannel surround music is a factor, that changes the playing field a bit. Yes you can get high end surrounds and sub, but that further inflates the already high price. Like the "little people" teaming up on Gulliver, a cheaper multichannel configuration can sound better than a 6->2 downmix on high end speakers.
As the NRC tests showed, you CAN pay lots of money and not get superior sound. However sometimes the additional money translates to audible improvement. Just like some people pay much money for fine wine, there are fine speakers that sound really good.
Axiom is unbeatable from a cost/performance ratio. I love mine and have no regrets. But even Axiom has distinct voicing. Some people may prefer Rocket or Ascend, or a different Axiom model such as the M50.
As your experience indicated, just buying expensive speakers is no guarantee of superior sound. However that doesn't mean the additional money NEVER yields audible benefits.
The motto is always do extensive auditions, in home if possible. Or order Axiom speakers and haul them to a high end shop and do A/B tests. It's fun, it's educational, it may give peace of mind. Any decent mid-to-high end shop should welcome the opportunity.
In reply to:
The motto is always do extensive auditions, in home if possible. Or order Axiom speakers and haul them to a high end shop and do A/B tests. It's fun, it's educational, it may give peace of mind. Any decent mid-to-high end shop should welcome the opportunity.
yep. [picture Hank Hill and the boys in the alley.]
Ok...what's with all the cute dogs lately?
My first foray into avatars. I dumped the first one (above) to resize for 65W and 75H here. This is Molly, a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. With the two daughters moved out, Molly is our short, hairy kid. She's cute & she knows it.
Smaller dogs are so full of themselves.
Ray, ya need to get a picture closer to the doggy so we can see what she really looks like.
OK - third & final try. Spiff, to answer your question, it was either a picture of Molly or a picture of me.
Now, where is that Steelers helmet........
One more time.
Ooops - need to reduce just a bit.
She's got nice markings.
Have you peed on her to let her know who's boss yet?
Hmmmm, as I look back through the mayhem I just created, several things are apparent:
1) I must apologize to TK - this is a strange thread hijacking in a "one man creative abuse" kind of way.
2) Don't try this at home. I am neither a professional, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. As such, I have sustained serious injury to my psyche over the last few posts.
3) I almost got there. My de-fuzzy controls seem to be out of commission.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled Hi Fi Industry thread.
You really got a lot of class!
actually ,i think he is finished with school
I am so offended. By the way, Pittsburg sucks! Go Broncos, even though they haven't a prayer next Sunday...
Trevor, the Broncos are my 3rd favorite guys (Browns are 2nd). They should have done much better this year. I'm expecting them to have a good year next year for sure.
Sorry I got tangled up in the middle of your thread. I've been trying to get the pictures in there for some time and never could get the hang of it. Turned out to be more difficult than I thought.
.
Have you ordered a receiver yet?
Ray:
Seriously bummed! The only one Ecost has is the 3803 Silver. I'm hoping for the 3805 or the 1083--black. I might have to go for the silver. I just don't know how fast Ecost rolls through inventory.. Thoughts?
TK, consider instead the
2805 which is very close to the 3805 and includes the microphone which is about $60 extra with the 3805.
2805, also known as the 985 (about $100.00 cheaper) available in black or silver
John:
I will. One significant difference is the Analog-to-Digital Conversion-Bit Depth/Sampling Rate. The 2805 is 24/96, while the 3805 is 24/192. Anyone know what the significants of this is? Where would it make a difference and is it noticeable to the human ear?
Bray: Where are you seeing it available?
Etronics.com has for $579.00 . I purchased mine from Sunshine about 3 months ago for 609.00 shipped. If you do a google search you'll find several e-tailers selling it. I had an overall good experience with Sunshine.
985s is the silver one, 985 is the black one. The black one is harder to find, but is out there.
There is also another # designation for the 3805 that is cheaper, but I have forgotten what # designation is.
EDIT: I purchased mine from ShopSunshine.
Looking around the prices are now a little closer, but still about a 50.00-60.00 difference.
TK, a 192KHz rather than 96KHz ADC capacity would have no real significance. Neither the 3805 nor the 2805 convert the analog multi-channel inputs(for DVD-As/SACDs)to digital and only some DVD-As have a 192KHz sampling rate, so the 192KHz ADC capacity would be unused. You can look at the description of the
AD1835 codec(COder/DECoder)which combines the ADC and the DACs in the 2805 if you like.
Of course a repy is coming...and I hope that you were not taking a shot at me.....
I agree with most of what was posted here, in that value is in the eye of the beholder. I have stated on many occassions that higher price does not always equate to better performance. It can allow a better design and utilization of superior components that when properly assembled can be a better product. But that is not always the case. In this forum we have all have expressed our opinions, dropped names and quoted sources. These should all be a part of your decision making, and for the larger part, learning experience. I read all posts, and treat all with interest - until it gets off topic and silly, at which point I tune out. I have discussed my views openly, and in PMs. I have always respected all opinions, points of view, and discussions. I have RARELY attacked, insulted or abused anyone I am in discussions with. Unfortunately, there are closed minds in this world who will never be comfortable enough to attempt to stretch their experiences, knowledge or minds.
I will say this - I have friends who do not understand my hobby and the associated costs. They however have different hobbies that do not appeal to me. If you look at other interests, can you justify $500 bottles of wine, $100k automobiles, $10k paintings, $350 shoes, $7500 watches, $6k bicycles, etc, etc......
My position is, and always has been - if you see value, can justify the financial outlay, then you have noone to answer to - except possibly your partner!!!
Bray:
Would ShopSunshine happen to be one of the many etailers who Denon warns consumers against on Denon's web site?. I'm worried about warrantee issues.
Sounds like "Live and Let Live".... which makes perfect sense to me....
No shot............I thought you would find the post "most interesting"
It's too bad the thread has gone way off topic.....I like to read interesting posts.... (like this one), people have taken the time to make, for all to enjoy.........then read the (relevant) replies.
Trevor, John and Bray make excellent points relative to the 985/2805. You might also want to look at the 983/2803. As far as ecost is concerned, the arrival of inventory is unpredictable and iffy at best. They receive units when Denon has something to send them. The "good stuff" moves pretty quickly. I'm surprised that the 3803 is still there.
I don't believe bray's referral is an "authorized" Denon etailer; you may want to check the Denon site. I'm not sure how important that is. When you buy from ecost, there is a 90 day Denon warranty. When I got my DVM-4800, I added another 12 mos (service provided through PCMall) for $30.
BBIBH:
I like your thinking.
I suppose we could wrap it up to a matter of diminishing returns. What returns on your money would one get when spending 20K for a set of fronts? Perhaps that little bit of "excellence" the owner would perceive is just enough to justify the cost to him or her. If that is their prerogative, so be it.
What I didn’t clearly articulate in my post was what bothers me most. The false perception that higher cost equates to quality. It’s a factor of our society; I see it almost everywhere. However, seldom does significantly higher cost really equate into directly into direct value for the investment.
No intention to stab at BMW owners, but if you study the 760Li, like I have, you would realize it is a very fine automobile; however, $117,300 MSRP? I could buy many amazing cars for 50k to 60K that would perform as well, ride almost as smooth, last as long—if not longer, and in some cases even do better than the 760Li, etc, etc. But the prestige and power some (I said SOME) feel when knowing most people on the road can not afford their car—but most covet it—helps justify that extra cost to them. It is part of the American way. I believe this same induced thought process of spending money does influence some who audition expensive speakers. I witnessed it with my audition mentioned above.
Just some more thoughts to stir the brain…by the way, I’ve test driven the 760Li; loved it, but just couldn’t feel like I could sleep at night knowing it costs that much jack—besides my wife would leave me if I bought it. I would have to be incredibly wealthy to not feel that way, and I don’t me sort of rich, but 7 digit rich….It's just a CAR, for crying out loud! Iron, leather, rubber, PLASTIC.
Ray: I supposed I'm just too new to Ecost and PCMall, but their web sites look identical, except for branding...are they one and the same?
TKHanson
You are correct. ShopSunshine is NOT an authorized dealer.
That is something that was not that important to me.
At the time I was shopping, I couldnt find a 985 from an authorized dealer, and the 2805 was considerably more expensive from the autorized dealers.
Bray: How long have you had your receiver and any issues to date? My only fear is that I'd have an issue 6 months in and repair costs would be 1/2 the cost of new.
yes...PCMall, and Ecost are the same company.
TK
I'm really not exactly sure, but its been between 3-5 months. The only problems I've had have been operator error.
I have also been told that if your going to have problems with a new reciever, it will usually happen within the first 10 hours of playing, which in my case was the first 10 hours after set-up.
After checking all my posts, I see that I recieved the 985 on 10/12.
Let me address several posts here:
FordPrefect - Thanks for the kind words. Have you been to Brant HiFi lately?
Mark - Absolutely! I have stated before that approaching all posts with an open mind - except when they get sublime - is my moto
LT61 - I do, you know me soooo well!!! LOL I also agree that this could be an interesting thread, but as happens in almost all threads, it goes OT. I can at least say this stayed within audio, as some are carried so far off topic the intent appears to pad ones post stats.....
TKHanson - I am not sure I would term it diminishing returns, but I can see how some would. I agree that some people believe that higher cost equals better - as I stated, it can, but is not guaranteed.
Fun hobby we have, but as mentioned, this crosses into almost any area of life. You mention "...just a CAR...", I have heard that same sentiment towards audio. Choices are a freedom we are lucky to have in life!
Thanks for the compliments as well!
i have to say,that anyone that could build a speaker and get 40,000 dollars out of someone for it is quite a genius