Not sure that I want to start a long thread, but if someone could tell me what the big benefits of a Home Theater PC are, that would be helpful.
I have a nice receiver for power, but just a low grade progressive scan DVD player. I was going to get a new Panasonic S97 or similar DVD player in about a month, but if there is some absolute, die hard reason to get a HTPC, I want to know now instead of later.
I know that you can play games on a large screen (I will have teh Sanyo Z3 projector), but I have a pretty killer PC in our bedroom, and yes my wife actually uses it too, so I am not wanting to convert it, nor do I see myself playing games on the large screen much at all anyway.
I know that there is timeshifting and recording to the hard drive, which we love on our Dish system, but I am not sure how much TV we will actually watch on the system, as it will be pretty much dedicated to movies...
So what else is there? I have been working (for money) with computers for over 10 years, and have not bought a pre-built PC since I had my old Commodore64 (built them all myself) so there is no problem with technology understanding or ability to build the system, I just want to know what other benefits there are. I need to make sure that the system is very easy to use, or my wife won't use it, and I will have to listen to her complain about how she doesn't understand how to use it.
PLease advise....
Nick, the person you should send a PM to is
Saturn.
He's built and used a HTPC for some time and is quite knowledgable about the innards and software, advantages and disadvantages in a practical use situation. Many of us here have excellent computer skills but i don't recall anyone else actually built and uses a HTPC specifically.
You should try a search on this subject. It has come up before and the thread did get lengthy.
Nick,
I have a HTPC that I'll be running in the theater that I'm just now finishing up. Part of my initial drive was to feed MP3s to my listening area, as well as the displaying of WMP/HD material on my projector. I keep a DVD player in the same rack for those ease of use applications and the playback of SACD/DVD-Audio.
I think that you'll get a mryiad of answers to your question about the benefits....including the superior scaling of normal DVDs, PVR functionality, gameplay, etc. Also, you might want to take a jaunt over to the
AVS HTPC Forum. There is more discussion over there about HTPCs than you could ever want.
In the end, HTPCs require someone that enjoys tweaking and piddling around with computers. In my case, it helps when you see something like Unreal Tournament on an 80"X60" screen....or a website....same effect.
How is the HTPC better at upscaling DVD video than, say, an upconverting DVD player, or a projector like the Sanyo Z3 that upconverts component-in video or accepts upconverted material via HDMI (and the upconverting DVD player)?
May end up with a single disk DVD player, and then tinker with HTPC if I see any need. Then it is simple for my wife, and more options for me.
I am not an MP3 collector, although I always said that some day I would put all of my CDs into MP3 format and run them from a PC. Tried it once, got tired of ripping and cataloging, and just gave up after a while. Maybe I will have to look into just hooking up my regular PC for a while and see what I think. I have DVI output on the video card, so I could convert that to HDMI or something and try it.
My problem is that I work with computers every day, and when I come home, I don't have time to do much tinkering. Heck, my PC I bought a year ago was assembled, overclocked, and yet still doesn't have the cold cathode lights connected, or the digital temp/fan control. Too much else going on.
Nick,
The computer might be better at "upscaling" because of some native resolution issues. In short, if your dvd player/HTPC doesn't upscale the image to the native resolution of your TV/projector, then the display device has to do this.
This upscaling is done with some sophisticated math. Older TVs and older DVD players aren't as efficient as doing the algorithms, etc. In addition, your TV is busy doing other things, like displaying the image - In short, the closer the signal going into the device is in relation to the TVs natiev resolution, the less work the TV has to do to show the iamge on its screen.
One of the things that a TV has to do is convert or scale the image based on the number of pixels. So, a TV with 766 lines of vertical resolution that gets a 720p signal still needs to convert those 720 lines into 766 lines. Granted this is easier than converting 480i lines, but soem processing still needs to be done.
While this doesn't answer your question directly, from what I understand, an HTPC can be told what resolution to send to the monitor. Therefore, it can send a 766 x 1260 or 960, whatever, signal to the TV, leaving the monitor only having to deal with displaying the picture.
The short answer to your question is that the DVD player's math might not be as good as a CPU's and it might not be as fliexible as the CPU's. On the other hand, it might be better. There is not set in stone rule that either is better - but one migh be better than another, as all upconverting is not equal.
Granted, I don'd know that much about this stuff - still learning. Please feel free, anybody, to jump in and correct me. I'm not offended by being corrected - only offended when I give somebody incorrect information without being told so.
In addition, I'm sure that Bren go a better, simpler and funnier answer than I.
Sorry, Captain... I have no first hand experience with HTPCs.
I could talk out of my hat but that's not my style.
Bren R.
In reply to:
I could talk out of my hat but that's not my style
no, your much better at talking out of your a$$..
bigjohn
I can't really address which upscaling method is superior to which, as I am only now beginning to dig into it. From what I've read, up until the release of these upscaling DVD players, it was generally believed that PCs did a much better job than say your TV, etc. Now, with the advances both in the display scalers (projectors, etc) and the DVD player scalers, I think that line of superiority has definitely blurred a bit. I can tell you that my standard DVDs seem to look much better when I run them through my PC than they do through the DVD player. I've always attributed that to the fact that my PC does a better job of scaling than my projector.
Turbodog1 and Capn Pickard has covered all aspects. I do not want to re-iterate what they said but just want to add that a HTPC can match the resolution of the native signal of the projector. By feeding a signal that is native to the projector the projector does not need to scale up or down the image. The scaling up or down of the image could cause some softening or add artifacts to the image. Most DVD players output 720 x 480i(interlaced) or 480p(progressive). At this point the projector would rescale the picture to its native 800x600p or the Z3 to its 1280x720p resolution. I do not believe any DVD players output in this resolution.
The picture is only as good as the video processor. So video processors can vary from DVD players and vary from projectors. The only way is to find out which has a better video processor is to try it out. Connecting your progressive component signal of your DVD player to a projector uses the DVD's video processor. Connecting your non progressive SVideo signal of your DVD player to your svideo input uses the projectors built in video processor. Some DVD players do have better video processing, some have better processor in the projector. Look for DVD player or projector with Faroudja chipsets. Can you tell the difference? Hell yeah ... when you blow up to 100+ inches you can clearly see it. High end videophiles output the DVD players into DVDO video processors which do have faroudja chipset and upscales the picture to 720p or even 1080p (1920x1080) at $2000+
HTPC's have built in video processing (via ATI or NVidea video hardware chipsets). DVD software players are getting so good that it scales and dithers the video using mathematical algorithms to clean and present the video source as best as possible. HTPC can also match the video output resolution to the same native resolution of the projector by using Powerstrip.
Based on what the HTPC ‘er use there are seemingly 2 groups. The mad tweakers which use WinDVD with FFDShow and Dscaler. This method is for the computer savy person that does not mind installing patches, tweaks, custom settings, filters. Every new update can cause instability and the blue screen of death. But this gives the absolute best picture. The other group is the ‘I just want a best picture available’ with no special tweaks. I’m in that group and I install NVidea’s DVD software. It can produce one of the best pictures outside of the WinDVD with tweaks. Last I heard the newest version of NVDVD gives now gives the best picture period. I have yet tried NVDVD 4. I use NVDVD 3.5 and I am very happy with its picture quality and stability. See my HT link below and you will notice how saturated in colors the screen capture of Mace Windu in SW:Episode 2.
Also outside the video aspect the HTPC should fit in with the rest of the audio video components. A nice case by Cooler Master or Silverstonetek or Ahanix would nice fit with the rest of the components.
http://www.coolermaster.com/index.php?LT=english&Language_s=2&url_place=product_class_include&files=chassis.html
http://www.silverstonetek.com/
http://www.ahanix.com/
Sound is important so having a low noise power supply or fanless power supply is a must.
http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/menu.htm
You would also need a sound card unless built into the motherboard that can output SPDIF to your receiver to get the full DD DTS. Don't foget to get a low noise hard drive like Seagate Barracudas or like in my case I buy low power low noise laptop hard drives.
So, how much did you guys spend on your HTPC?
I was thinking about getting the Panasonic S97S which has a Faroudja DCDi processor, and can output 1080i and like you said, the Z3 can go to 1920 x 1080i with HDMI.
I am not sur eof the processor in the Z3, but it is supposed to be excellent. So good, that many people are skipping the upconverting DVD player, and letting the projector do it.
With that said, I want a great picture, but after spending about 6 hours tonight trying to fix the crashed hard drive on my PC (remember the great one I mentioned before? Looks like an unrecoverable error. Oh, and it went out of warranty 45 days ago. Western Digital only has 1 year warranties I guess.) I am thinking that I don't want to tinker and tweak a HTPC if I do go that route.
What about the Microsoft Media Center route? I have heard of people building their own system and getting Media Center installed on it.
I don't want to rule out the HTPC, and I GREATLY appreciate the easy to follow information you folks posted, but I want to make sure that if I go that route, it will be worth the trouble compared to the DVD player I mentioned above.
Thanks yet again for your help. This is a really interesting topic.
I like the looks of the Ahanix D5 case or the Silver Stone (black)...
Very nice....
Great information Saturn, sounds like your the HTPC guru
Since Nick is looking at the Z3, as am I to replace my awesome Z2, I thought I would add some additional information. I'm not sure what video scaler Sanyo uses for the Z3, it might be Faroudja based, not sure, but many of the threads I've read on AVS from current owners speak very highly of its ability. Most of them set their DVD players to interlaced mode and let the Z3 take over.
Here is a portion of Projector Central's review on the Z3, sounds pretty impressive..
"Owners of the Z3 will never want to bother with an external video processor like the DVDO iScan HD since the onboard electronics are already fully adequate to the task. DVDs are scaled as cleanly as we've ever seen on any product in this class, and those with particularly good transfers look almost high def."
So it sounds like I will forget the idea of getting an upconverting DVD player.
The S97S has great reviews. But the Faroudja processor is supposedly not the helralded Faroudja on the the legendary Panasonic RP82. Based on some reviews they said to use 720p with HDMI. It came out withthe best DVd picture which is actually the same native rez as the Z3. You can't go wrong with that combo.
If Media Center is still using WM10 I would still go with NVDVD. Last time I played with WM10 or was it WM9 it does not use hardware acceleration in the DVD player. It only had options to use software acceleration. Since the ATI or GForce card have hardware video acceleration why not use it.
I'm getting a Silverstone tower case for my new gaming rig (hopefully) tomorrow. I'll let y'all know about the fit and finish. (TJ05)
Saturn - Where did you get NVDVD? I looked at their website and they say that it's not sold or distributed outside of the bundling w/ specific manufacturers cards (PNY and evga.com).
FWIW- Popular science just had an overview of HTPCs with some reviews. Nothing
really in depth, but a nice multipage overview of them just the same.
I just did a quick search of their website:
Build your own HTPC overview
and
more detail
Finally, the article I was talking about above:
The PopSci Buyer's Guide: Media Center PCs. On that page, make sure you follow the links on the left side to "related articles"....
that's where they review specific desktops, laptops and "living room friendly" PCs...
My 2 cents
HTPC is a very broad term these days. Basically because you impliment a system to output whatever it is you want, to your TV in so many different ways.
I learned so much in trial and error over the past ~10 years outputing things from my PC to my TV and I still feel there is a lot more to learn.
I think one thing to consider is if you want to tweak or if you just want a box that works. Right now I've settled on MCE 2005 (self built box) because I mainly wanted tivo like features. I picked MCE over MythTV mainly because I liked the added bonus of a Windows (XP) desktop in my HT for other things, and general ease of configuring (MythTV is easy but Linux+Hardware is not always).
Now I'm doing all this with standard tv. I don't have a HDTV yet (although I cry myself to sleep at nite wishing I did
). I think picture quality is fair but I still use a regular DVD player for DVD movies. Of course I can play other media thru MCE like DivX (mpeg4 and such) which is VERY nice when I need to get my hands on a tv show I missed or didn't know about or comes from a friend, etc. Plus of course archiving tv and other things now is extremely nice ability to have (althought time consuming).
And then there is the music. I am a big mp3 nut, having all my music at my fingertips is extremely nice. And with multichannel mp3 on the way, as well as all the other music file formats out there today, I'm pretty excited. It's almost relaxing to have all this ability sitting in one box in your HT, at least to me it is.
I'm picking up the Silverstone HTPC when I got spare change.
Well, the TJ05 is a really nice case, quite well built. Also enormous... I'll let y'all know how their customer service is... they forgot to include the case key! I had to partially disassemble the thing to put in the DVD drive... we'll see how quickly/well they deal with that. The istructions they send with the case are somewhat lacking, however.
Your lucky you got something in English.
English---yeah, sort of...
I want to revive the HTPC discussion, but I don't want anybody to start fighting about scaling and stuff, okay?
I found some pretty cool looking systems at what seem to be fair prices at
2 Parts Fusion.
Here's what I want to do:
1. Control my Sony CD Megachangers through a SAVR (like Slink-e) from
Black Box Designs and some associated software (like
TitleTrack). I do not wish to spend my life ripping CD’s. Not now, anyway. Would a MCE remote (or preferably MX-700) be able to control a regular PC application like this, or would a user need to use a mouse? (obviously, I have zero experience with MCE and apologize for what is undoubtedly a stupid question).
2. DVD playback - Since one of the things I am interested in is replacing my existing and aging DVD player with a HTPC, how "easy" might it be to start playing a DVD? That is, using existing components and MX-700 macros, it is basically a one-button operation. Could the same thing be accomplished with a HTPC? I know, a decent, regular DVD player is going to give me similar quality, but I have limited equipment space, and leveraging that impending expenditure on more diversely capable hardware seems satisfying.
3. Web browsing
4. Photo display - show jpgs of family photos and stuff
5. PC games (basic, family-oriented things, not extreme gaming)
My wife likes and uses our URC MX-700 remote for our HT, including DirecTivo. At this time, I am not interested in HTPC PVR functionality. I want to use the MX-700 for everything - can you make it act like a mouse for HTPC apps?
You may recall that I have an older, SD Mitsubishi 55 CRT RPTV. At the moment.
We have the main computer in another room (it ain't moving) and do have broadband access with Cat5e already run from the router at the other computer to the living room (where the HT is).
Now, I know there are other ways to accomplish these things more cheaply. I could buy a new DVD player, get an XBox or PS2/3, and either just suck it up on the Megachanger control or start ripping. I considered getting a Prismiq media player for the browsing and file sharing. Those all seem like compromises and inelegant solutions.
I’d appreciate any thoughts you might have about the viability of my situation, especially related to ease-of-use questions.
I actually use my Mac Mini w/ my HT. Mostly as a 2nd computer though, not a real HTPC. Works quite well and form factor is small. In fact, I've actually seen some PCs that are VERY close in form factor to the mini.
If you want a good all in one keyboard, I use a BTC 9116 I got cheap on ebay.
BTC
osb - thanks for the link on the keyboard. Some people seem to like the Gyration products. I'm a little concerned about distance. What's your experience?
Mac Mini! Holey smokes - that could almost work! Is there any other way to convert the video output to S-Video besides
this or
this expensive option? What kind of picture quality would I expect? Should I be concerned about the path (converting from DVI to VGA to NTSC)?
I don't want to degenerate into "Mac for PC/newbie idiots" or anything here, but that could work. At half the cost. What about games? And can Macs read data CD's burned by PC's?
Oh, the power of the Dark Side!
oohh, a possible switcher...
Keyboard is great. I'm about 10' feet away from the transmitter, which is inside a Salamander twin. I also have an old VersapointRF keyboard w/ thumbpad that I've used. That works good too, but you have to be 2 handed to use the pad, whereas the BTC you can do w/ one hand. I'm willing to sell the Versapoint if anyone's interested.
The Mini comes standard w/ DVI. On my Panny 6UY EDTV plasma, picture is quite good. The DVI is for the HDTivo so I use VGA, which is suprisingly good. Watching Apple's h.264 quicktime library is pretty impressive, even via VGA.
$100 for a converter? Holy smokes, it's only $19.
Svid adapter
Mac's version of an HTPC. Check these:
Mac HTPC
HT Mini
CenterStage
How to get digital audio:
M Audio
I only listen in stereo mode via USB, since my Pioneer 45TX has a USB input. The Mac Audio CODEC is actually VERY good, better than my Win2K IBM laptop which was very "tinny".
Prices have dropped, check macmall.com. I think the full blown 1.4GHz, superdrive, bluetooh, airport, 1 GB, is under $800.
Yes, Macs can read PC disks. You can also run Virtual PC to run a Windows session, although it maybe somewhat slow on a Mini. Works fine on a G4 Powerbook though. The nice thing I've found is that the new Tiger runs older OS9 (classic mode) software pretty easily. I've picked up some older Living Books CDs for my kid for cheap on ebay, like Dr. Seuss and Little Critter. Even those these are almost 10 years old, they play easily w/ the Mac. Try that w/ XP. (I did and it won't work...w/o some in depth video driver changes.)
An Apple DVR would be cool though...
DVR
iFlicks
I wouldn't try PC games in virtual PC. Miserable experience. But do look around and see if the games you are interested in are on both platforms, as long as they're not to intense speed wise. If you're doing any real 3d gaming, you're going to want better than a mini, be that a PC or a more powerful Mac.
agreed, i didn't mean virtual PC for games. Mini is good as a 2nd computer or HTPC, but not a full blown gaming rig. For that, you'd be better off w/ a gaming PC or G5 tower.
But even a G5 tower will need a vid card upgrade. This dual 2.5 is nice, but it could use some souping up for games -- not that I have time to play anymore
Yup, a 9800 XT at least, preferably the 6800 GT or the X800 XT... which are way too expensive. A G5 tower with the 9600 would be acceptable for lower end games, but probably not as an HTPC.
XP Media Center Edition 2005 (MCE) > all
If ur a tweaker you can buy it and build your own box. If you just want a system that works there are many pre-built MCE boxes out there that are just plug and play.
I've tried Sage, BeyondTV, MythTV and various other lil programs... none of them can touch MCE for ease and just plain coolness. Plus M$ just came out with
this very cool keyboard designed for it.
There is suppose to be a big patch for MCE this fall that will really upgrade its HDTV support and there are rumors flying about that we may even see HD cable-card tuners for PC's by the end of the year to support MCE.
Right now in my HT I have my TV (50" Mitz SDTV), my receiver (HK 630), and my MCE box that I built myself, thats it! I couldn't be happier.
Oh and MCE does use WMP10 and it does utilize HW support, all dependant on ur DVD decoder and video drivers. Currently I have a ATI 9600Pro and Nvidia's DVD decoder. Next year when I go HD I'll likely be rebuilding this current box. Basically for SDTV you can get by with minimal HW but full HDTV processing ups the requirements quite a bit.
Thats just my 2 cents. And I'd be happy to answer any other questions that anyone has.
Where was that M$ keyboard a few months ago? FINALLY someone makes a real media center keyboard.
Yes.
However, it's just a monitor, headphones, and usenet for getting my movies. Nothing special - for now.
I've been running my HTPC for just a little over a year (since I got the house). At this point I have no idea how I'd have a home theater without it really. I run Meedio as my main front end and Beyond TV for the PVR stuff, there is no way MCE can cut it for me. I've spent countless hours messing with Meedio though and probably wont ever stop so it's really not for everyone. It does pay off though, I love having access to all this media on my TV.
- ALL my music in loss-less format optical to my reciever
- TV shows ripped from HD sources (ya I download em)
- Entire TV seasons in Archives
- Piles of random video (music, crap from the web, car stuff)
- Streaming movie trailes
- Streaming music vids
- Streaming online radio
- Movie showtimes in my 'hood with trailers
- Weather with sat images, traffic cameras for my bridge.
- All my digital photos
- PVR (barely use is though, see 2nd on list)
- Web browsing, kinda useless but handy once in a while
- X10 control for some lights
- RSS news feeds
- Sports plugin for scores and details
- Google Maps and Sat, I have to admit this is busted!
- single RF hand remote (Firefly), and keyboard backup
All this on a sub $1000 PC. I have a tube TV so it's S-vid for me which brings the cost down a lot. Video card is a Matrox for excellent TV out considering the s-vid. If I had a better TV this would be a much more expensive system.
Anyone who has PC experience needs to try a HTPC out, the benifits are just a total revolution of the HT really.
"With that said, I want a great picture, but after spending about 6 hours tonight trying to fix the crashed hard drive on my PC (remember the great one I mentioned before? Looks like an unrecoverable error. Oh, and it went out of warranty 45 days ago. Western Digital only has 1 year warranties I guess.)"
Stick with Seagate, I think they are all 3 year warranties.
Thanks for the help, everyone. I appreciate the discussion.
Can anybody tell me why this
HP for $745 at ECost would be a bad thing? It seems like a good deal.
In reply to:
there is no way MCE can cut it for me
Not trying to pick a fight
but I'm just curious, MCE can do everything on that list, why don't u think it can cut it for ya?
In reply to:
Can anybody tell me why this HP for $745 at ECost would be a bad thing? It seems like a good deal.
Well its a refurb, BUT that said, I'd still say that's a steal!
western digital special edition or with the model number ending in jb has the three year warranty
Seagate has a 5yr warranty on all drives, as of last year. As for that system at eCost, it looks great for the price. I'd want to know what the hard drive is though as it could be out of warranty if it's a cheap model and it's a refurbed machine.
On the topic of MCE maybe I need to give it another look. When I checked into it a few months ago there wasn't a plugin to be had let alone half of what I listed ready to go stock. Do you have any links to sites with plugins and details for MCE?
www.thegreenbutton.com
MCE PowerToys
Similar to X10
TONS of MCE info and news
I'm not gonna try to make someone change over to MCE from what they have. I'm mostly just pointing out for someone new to the HTPC scene that MCE is probably the easiest option to get into HTPC.
That's exactly why I asked. If a friend or family memeber wants me to help them setup a HTPC a easy alternative to Meedio would be nice.