With my current amp issues, I may need to change and go with a differant brand. The A 21 & A 51 were my first choice, but because of financial issues, my final choice was to go with the Outlaw 950/770 combo. I think they are great products for the price, but if the issues with the 770 and the five M80's can not be resolved, I will need to replace the 770, and at this point, I will just spend the extra money and go with my origianl plan. If any members here are using any of the Parasound products, would really appreciate any info offered. ;-)
Tharkun,
This post will likely be of interest to you.
What about just getting a good stereo power amp for the mains and letting the receiver handle the rest ? It just seems like you need some really hefty thermal management to power lots of channels at 4 ohms in one amp. Not impossible but probably expensive...
One reason for considering the Halos, have a friend that will let me try his out, and see how it does. At the moment, my brain is is over load protection, the Outlaw issue has taken weeks of phone conversations, and testing differant suggestions. I have just about concluded with the advice of a well known expert, that for my situation, going with multiple amps is the best plan, and will be a sure way of solving the problems. looks like any unit with several channles is just going to be a possible problem, and I just want to relax and enjoy, and quit playing engineer. LOL Not going to solve this in the next few days, will just keep getting imput from members, and see what sounds best for the next attempt. ;-) A quick note, I have been having 'peaks' in the 220 - 235 watt range, so still thinking I need a range of 300 watts for each of the M80's.
Rotel is always a good option too. Not nearly as pricey as the Halo stuff, but sweet sounding, and tons of power.
A pair of Rotel Rb1080s and a Outlaw mono block could fit the bill.I have ran my 80s for over a year with the Rotel amp with no issues at all.Even at really loud levels the amp gets only slightly warm.
Why not try M60's for the rears? That would make it easier on your amp, save you some dough, and give you a very similar sound.
Just one suggestion.
Good suggestion, but I like having the speakers match for one, and at the moment, the M80's are not the problem. After 3 days of trying every possible combination, its looking like its a heat problem, and seems the 770 is not dealing with it. If it was as simple as chaning the rears, I would, but at this time, does not guarantee to solve the issue. But really...I'm not giving up any of my M80's. <g>
In reply to:
But really...I'm not giving up any of my M80's.
LOL!
Spoken like a true Axiomite. Sorry you have to go through all this. I know how crazy it makes me when my system isn't performing up to snuff. Hang in there. This, too, shall pass.
Update......I have managed to prove to Outlaw that there is something wrong internally on the 770, so with regret, I'm returning the 950/770 for a refund. They are going to send the set to the techs and have them see if they can isolate the issue. I think Outlaw is a great product, but after this expierance with 7 channel amps, I'm going with the advice of using seperate amps, and becasue the M80's sound great a loud volumes, I'm staying with something around 300 watts per channel I think. So now, back to researching and making a decision on what.
I'm thinking 7 Outlaw monoblocks. That way, you reduce the load on the power supply (drastically) since the 7 have separate power supplies. The heat could still be an issue; I'm not sure how those puppies are cooled. But getting it out of one chassis seems like a good idea to me.
That was my suggestion to Outlaw about a week ago, but the tech seemed hesitant, wanted to wait till the 770 issue was resolved. Which kind of makes me wonder if there is more to this heat issue, as in, is the 300 watts @ 4 ohms fully accurate, and is that with all channels driven. In the last few weeks I did find one other 770 owner in Canada which had a more channel problems than I, as he was having several channels shuting down with the thermo protectors, this was last April, and he updated his post this Feb, and has never solved the issue. Seems the 7 mono blocks should work as they offer a package price, but at this point, I'm just not wanting to be the first to try it with the five M80's. I'm not upset with Outlaw, it very well could be I just had a defective 770, what bothered me was the falling back to me running the five M80's, and especially the concern over the rear ones, becasue of the 60 foot runs of 12ga wire. Also wondering if I had talked to Axiom to find out if the 4 ohm rating was accurate, seems my wires, speakers, and banana plugs were more of the issue than a possible problem within the 770. ;-)
Here is a pic of the impedance of the M80s.
Thanks ! Alan gave me an URL for the Outlaw tech, I gave it to him, and think it may have helped, the tech admited he had never actually auditioned any of the Axioms, but had heard good things about them. One of the things he kept wanting me to try was differant speakers, I refused, as I have no similar speakers, and if an amp, any brand, is not going to hande the M80's, then its point less for me to try that possible solution....I'm not giving up even one of my M80's, no way, no how. LOL
The reason I'm leaning towards the 300 watts per channel is that the house is 2,800 square feet. The listening area is actually about 1,100 square feet. The puter room is next to the Axiom area with a large opening, so the sound fills it as well. When running the Axiom system at 100-110db, I'm able to be any where in the house upstaris as well, and have a good sound. Since the solarium is all glass, I can even be out in hte back yard or my workshop and have tunes. Thus the reason for good amps, that can hanlde the Axioms at loud levels for long periods of times, average day the Axioms run 10 to 12 hours with tunes, evening often a few hours with movies. SO, do I need the 300 watts, maybe not, can I use it....YES. <g>
Yes, for good clean sound out in the back yard through a glass wall you will definitely want 300W/channel. The frightening thing is that you probably WILL get good clean sound out in the back yard through a glass wall
Seriously, for anything over 4,000 cubic feet Axiom recommends M80s plus a big honkin' amp, and I think you are pushing 9,000 cubic feet.
Thanks for the vote, now a few more and will have to start making a decision on which brand to go with, and actually its closer to 11,000 cubic feet. We have the outdoor BBQ island and do have a lot of BBQ parties, even in winter here in the valley. With the four 30" square sliders, and the glass door open, the sound out door is very impressive, I had some out door speakers and a sub woffer, but now with the Axiom system, those are going on ebay. I 'am serioulsy considering the Halo A 51, A 21 and the C 2. Of course its four times the Outlaw 950/770 cost, but the speaker budget started out at just $1,200 and ended up at $5,600, so much for budgets I guess. Will apperciate any inputs, can not have to many opinions.
I still say Rotel is your best bet.
An RMB-1075 for the five M80's and a RB-1070 to power the QS8's.
They'll run cool, sound great, and no doubt look a hell of a lot better than those butt ugly Outlaws.
Dennis, in looking at the 770 manual, the spec is 300 watts into 4 ohms, all channels driven, FTC. Among the requirements of the FTC rating is that the amp has to be driven at the full rated power for at least 5 continuous minutes. If they rate it that way you can be reasonably sure that the units rated met the requirements for amplifiers sold in the U.S., otherwise they'd be in violation of the FTC regs. So, although your setup has higher requirements than most, it certainly isn't nearly as severe as the 5 minute FCC test reg.
Whatever the heat issue that you mentioned is exactly, it may well be a problem just with that particular unit. Have you provided more ventilation than the picture with the 950 on top of the 770 shows? Has Outlaw now offered to simply send another 770?
Have you looked at the 7 channel sunfire amps, I don't know if you are looking at a seperate processor, I have their signature 400X5 grand cinema amp. In 2 channel it is amazing, so warm, I run it bi-wired current, and voltage, sounds just like a dedicated 2 channel. I have not budgeted for their cinema 3 or 4 processor, so I use the Yamaha 1500 as a pre/pro. and to pick up the rears (7.1)
Their 200X7 and 400X 7 (signture) amps would be worth looking at, not cheap, but awesome. I am looking at a (maybe slightly used) signature 600x2 2 channel, then will use my existing 400x5 for 7.1, and hopefully add the matching grand cinema 3, or 4, processor when and if it is in the budget.
Don't rule out a single multi-channel amp, as you can see their power ratings are not an issue, my 400x5 runs very cool. This is their 7 channel amp:
Features and Specs
400 watts rms continuous per channel, all channels driven into eight ohms from 20Hz to 20kHz with no more than 0.5% T.H.D.
800 watts rms per channel into four ohms
1600 watts rms per channel into two ohms - time-limited basis
Two output options for the main left and right channels: current source for a warmer, more open tube sound or voltage source for all the tight response this awesome solid state amplifier can deliver
Intrinsic frequency response 1 Hz to 80 kHz
Signal present auto-on switch senses input signal on any channel and automatically powers up
12VDC trigger input with 1/8" mini jacks as well as plug-in screw-terminal strip
Balanced XLR and unbalanced RCA inputs
High-quality gold-plated all metal five-way binding posts
Five-year parts and labor warranty
John, I have been trying to convince Outlaw for over 3.5 weeks that the problem was with this 770. Yes, the pic you seen it was stacked with the 950, but that was only after a few weeks of having it on the flloor, with nothing stacked on it, and the heat issue was not effected either way, on the floor, or in the cabinet. I even put a 17" house fan directly on the amp, and even with that, the problem channel would cut out with in 20 minutes.. As for offering to send a replacement, that is what concerned be after the first 3 calls, and they just wanted me to keep doing trouble shooting, which I have done for weeks..So today, I just forced the issue and made it clear I was not going to continue to just waste time re-trying things that have been done many times, I believe this unit had a problem, and I'm sure from all of the positive things I read about customer service from Outlaw before deciding to purchase from them must be true. This was just a freak thing, and for some reason, they choose to go to an extreme trouble shooting, and still wanted to wait and talk to facory techs, to see if they could arrive a solution. But after the thermo protectors have went through 70 - 100 resets, I did not fell like keeping the 770 should they find a solution, and send the 770 back to me. <g>
Not to thread jack, but why M80's all around? How does your setup play 5.1 format? Won't the resistance on your 60' 12gauge wire cause some of your problems?
1 - Reason for the five M80's, same logic as any out of the box home theater speaker system, fronts, rear, center are all matched.
2 - Not sure what you are asking about the 5.1 sound, sounds great, the rear M80's effect nothing when in 5.1.
3 - Not wanting to start another long thread on speaker wire gage/length, but from my testing of the shortest verses longest speaker wire in my system, has no effect rather its the 3' center wire, or the 60' rear ones.
4 - Actually the heat problem on the Outlaw 770 would cut out the thermo protector on a channel within 20 minutes, no matter what speaker I switched to that chanel amp. 99 % of the time it was always the left rear channel that was cutting out, and the tech had the assumption it had to be becasue it just happened to be the long 60' speaker run. I played the same source material, at the same level, for the same lenght of time, and it would always cut out in 20 minutes, on any speaker on that channel amp, even did it with each of the QS8's. Of course could it be that the left rear channel amp just happened to be in the center of the Outlaw 770 ?
I'm going to ask another question and you will see why I asked if it affected 5.1.
Do digital receivers output only certain frequencies to each channel when operating in digital surround mode, or do they just output discrete selection of sounds with full frequency coverage?
Do you get the same surround immersion with the M80's as you would with the quad-polar Q's?
Thanks for the info, and I have looked at the Sunfire, and price wise, they are close to the Anthem and Rtoel, Parasound is still the pricey one, but one thing, they are in my neighbor hood should I need to go complain, and has a few things, like powering the buttkickers that will go in the theater recliners, saving the cost of an additional amp. <g>.
I'm still undecided, have not really eliminated any brands yet, just trying to nail down costs for the requirements of the 300 watts per channel, don't think I want all amps in one enclosure again, and will need the processor/controller.
good, but $5000...
this is obviously equip made for people that have money to throw around. i mean, really. can a common guy really afford to spend $5000 on nothing but an amp?
i cant..might as well put this in the category with the Lamborghini Murcielago and the Virgin Galactic trip to the moon i been saving up for.
bigjohn
Tell me about it bigjon, I'm not a happy camper about now. With the dollar cost per amp being so low going with the Outlaw system, I ended up spening about $5,600 on the Axiom system, and was a happy camper having a great sounding system. Now with needing to replace the Outlaw 950/770, and needing the power for the levels I listen at, I'm now looking at over 3 times the $ 2,400 for the Outlaw, may need to take out a mortage to fund this project.
Can you get the same benefit with power amps for just the fronts and center ? Most of the content comes out from those 3 speakers AFAIK.
Dumb question maybe, but are you running the M80s in "large" or "small" mode ?
Note that the P5 is $5k but the P2 stereo amp is only $2k MSRP.
If this amp is only for the M80s...that price for the power rating is quite good. A Bryston equivalent would be much higher.
Coda amps might be another possibility. This is by far the most rock solid amp i've used. It ran cooler than my fridge while pushing 108dB at 10 feet on the Tannoys for about 3 hours. I believe most are Class A/AB. The one i had was used for 2k.
LOL No question is dumb at this point, yes, after weeks of tweaking between tests, I'm back to running the M80's for the front and center channel in large mode, this final decision was aided by Alan, as he agreed with me, with the M80's and my ear, I can not detect any big differance, and it just seems to be a tad better when set to large. Besides, got tired of trying to compare large/small setting. <g>
Also becasue of using the stero 7 mode for most of the music listening during the day well being all over the house, I have found I do need amps for rears same as for the fronts and center, kinda of hard to explain, but the way the speakers are set up here, and the mere voulme of area, need a lot of power.
You are looking at all very good quality equipment, hey, instead of those slip-in/under powered "butkickers" I let the subs kick my butt. I like sunfires 5 yr. parts and LABOR warr.
I just figured you probably wouldn't need so much power if you set 'em to "small"
I could only be so lucky. LOL This is a pain, but I know when I have the new power in and everything is working correctly, all the porblems will be more than worth the effort, the Axioms are the best speakers I have had in 40 years of playing with audio products. I thought my M & K's were great back in 1985, but as I told Alan, this are far superior, especailly for the price. Back to research, checking into a possible good price on B & K on eBay, thanks to joninflordia, I have been so brain dead, did not check eBay in the last week.
Say it with me.........PARASOUND, PARASOUND! Take a good long look at them. You won't regret it! :-)
Hi all..................long time no talk! lol
Where the heck have you been? Good to see you back!
Hey John how ya been ? Didn't recognize ya without the clown faces
.Good to see ya back.
Hey boys! I have been around.......... just laying low.
I pick and choose my spots now! :-)
If I can get the price of the Halo A51,A23, and the C2 down a few grand, Im still thinking its my first choice. Only problem is I'm not into buying used, so it could take sometime to get all 3 pieces new from shopping around.
Haven't we heard about some Halo problems with humming sometime in the last 6 months? I could be wrong; don't want to start a firestorm here...
I've heard that they now have, indeed, learned the words......
lol im adding to classic posts.
Jake
Just back from a stressful day, auditioned the B& K and the Parasound, and made the decision to go with the Halo's, will post a review of both systems in the morning and my reasoning for going with the Halo's. I have really appreciated all of the info and suggestions for replacements. ;-)
I think I posted this before and got dumped on but.....I have owned a few Halo's and have yet to hear a hum..................To take it one step further, I have yet to hear a hum from any Parasound product. I know some reported a hum from the A23 but mine was always dead quite.
Tharkun, you made a wise choice. The Parasound stuff will not disappoint.
Yes NH and Ken,
I reported the Halo Hum issue quite some time ago in
this thread.
I never did go with the Halos. I had since had the chance to hear another A23 unit when a friend was interested in them and again, same hum issue at his place.
However, as i said before and reported to Tharkun, i don't think it is widespread and the Halos are a very attractive unit for the price. If you get a deal on one, it is worth it. The hum is really not audible during music playback.
If NH and i were ever to get together, i would love to hear his Halo unit just to see if the units i've heard to date were defective or whether it is a house-specific phenomenon.
Well at this type of investment, its a 30 mile drive and they will have them back for any minor problem I have, that is a given. ;-) This store has dealt with me in the past and know I expect what I pay for, nothing more, but nothing less.
