MA Silver 8 and M60 in home demo. - Axiom Message Boards

Howdy comrades.

On the way home from work today I pulled the trigger on some Monitor Audio S8s in the Rosemah finish. Unfortunately they won't be here until sometime next week.

It should be very interesting to see how the M60s stack up against these much more expensive speakers. Aside from the S8s obvious advantage in the bass dep't (and aesthetic appeal) I think the M60s will do pretty well. Even if the M60s do get bested, they'll still be staying here with me. It appears they go for $600-650 on the used market - and I like them far more than that!

If you folks out here in soCal are interested in doing a demo session, let me know. It would be very cool to expand the listening session to include some M80s, as M80s in a high gloss finish will be my next purchase if the Monitor Audios don't blend well with the rest of my Axiom HT.

I'm VERY interested in how your demo turns out. Last year I went to a members house for an m80 demo and was very impressed. Then I heard MA S8 a couple of months later. I heard the two speakers to many months apart so I can't really say which one was better because I didn't get to do a side by side comparison. Please let us know how it turns out.

Thanks
Legairre

As you know Bigwill, i've heard both and own the M60s, but i've always leaned towards the MA mostly b/c of aesthetics as both speakers sound excellent.
I know at least Saturn has heard them as well.
I would be interested in your thoughts and pics if you can provide them.

Hmmmm...I might have to invite myself to your place and drag my butt out to Corona....maybe bring my speakers with me!

Big Daddy Curtis! Grab those little horizontal speakers and come on out!

I would be extremely excited to have an opportunity to hear those Ascends.

I'll definitely report my findings - including pics, I suppose.

Keep in mind that I will be biased based by what I have heard already from each speaker in separate environments: I am expecting the MAs to have much better bass and to be a little more forgiving on the top end, but not much I'm guessing. I'm also expecting them to have some unwanted midrange resonances that the M60s do not. In all the listening sessions I have done, there have been no speakers cleaner-sounding than my M60s. And in the 2 years I've had them I'm sure I have been acclimated to what music is "supposed to" sound like (like it sounds through my Axioms!

).

Thanks for the feedback, pards.

horizontal??
http://www.thechangs.us/clean.JPG

I will PM you and maybe we can set something up.

Ooops! My bad. I thought the Ascends were bookshelf speakers with a horizontally aligned woofer and mid.

no no no....that is a bad thing. That type of alignment causes lobbing.

Lobbing -- def'n : An acoustic effect caused by multiple drivers sharing a horizontal axis, characterized by variations in perceived sound level as the listener moves about the room; resulting in the disgruntled listener tossing the offending speaker into the trash...

yeah...that's it.

I know there are somethings that can be done the lessen lobbing effects as well.

But as far as L/R speakers are concerned, you almost never see that drivers arranged that way.

Sorry, was just having fun with that extra "b" in lobing

Horizontal layouts don't work for center speakers either, unless the drivers are arranged symmetrically (eg. the WTW array, named D'Appolito after someone I have never heard of). In a symmetrical layout the sound combines to give the same effect as one speaker in the middle, so to the ear it seems as if all the drivers are in the same spot, ie same as if they were aligned vertically.

The only problem you still have is lobing, which doesn't go away even with a symmetrical layout.

I'm guessing it was someone named D'Appolito.

D'oh !!

That's why I keep coming back here. Where else can I learn so much so quickly ?

OK, a slightly different Google search got me past the 1,135,205 different center speakers on the Internet and found a picture of Dr. Joseph D'Appolito :

http://www.visaton-bausaetze.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/referenz_en.htm

oh!! You were making fun of my spelling!!

John, for shame! Dr. Joe D'Appolito .

Don't Rockets have a bookshelf speaker with such a configuration? I believe that is the speaker with which I was confusing your Ascends.

Yeah...they do.

In reply to:
Horizontal layouts don't work for center speakers either, unless the drivers are arranged symmetrically (eg. the WTW array,

Umm, a bit of a stretch Bridgman as it does not explain the VP150.
Ian has done so here and here .
Lobing is not always a big consequence as some believe and in regards to centre speakers, those who say it is a huge problem typically state this after they have heard it from sitting so far off axis that it makes you wonder about what they are expecting for performance from a system. Complete perfect sound dispersion 360 degrees behind and in front of each speaker? I sometimes wonder.

Not sure I understand. The VP150 *is* symmetrical -- TWWWT is the same as (carefully typing it in backwards) TWWWT

I read the first part of your post in a different way, but the last sentence i think was the one i should have quoted:

In reply to:
The only problem you still have is lobing, which doesn't go away even with a symmetrical layout.

According to Ian, the VP150 doesn't have the lobing axis.

Actually Bridgman, i'm not sure if you were referring to an earlier post with your statement or not. I think i may have lost something in your context depending on what you were referring to.
Well the information is useful anyway.

In reply to:
I pulled the trigger on some Monitor Audio S8s in the Rosemah finish

Very nice and congrats. All my MA stuff is in Rosemah also. Excellent fit and finish. I have never done the MA8's against the M60's but I did get the chance to do the MA10's against the M80's. I don't want to compare them as I don't think that would be fair as they are two vastly different speakers. At the end of the day however, I would have taken the MA10's home every time vs. the M80's as they were more to my liking. I also prefer the MA8's over my M50's but again, I'm not sure we are in all honesty talking apples to apples!

As I still have yet to hear the M60's, I can't say what to expect from your comparison. If I was to guess I would think that the MA's will have better all around bass and slightly more laid back midrange and perhaps a little bit more forgiving on the high side. I have heard the MA8's on a number of occasions and I personally think they are a fantastic speaker.

Last week I spent a few hours with a set of Monitor Audio GR60's.............now you want to talk about a speaker, dam those MA60's are nice set of speakers. If I could wing it financially I would be all over them. I have heard nothing like them.

Chess, I hear what you are saying. In both of those posts Ian states that the VP150 TWWWT layout eliminates lobing along the lateral axis, although he doesn't say how. I don't have a good explanation for how that would work -- it seems to me that having more drivers would actually make lobing MORE of an issue, not less.

Maybe in 10 years everyone will be advertising "Colquhoun layout" centers and mains. We can only hope.

Alan / Ian, if it's not "proprietary IP" and you see this thread any chance of giving us a hint why the VP150 gets rid of lobing ? There might be a VP150 in my future if that's the case.

There are very few albums where lobing is noticeable on a regular center (VP100 in my case) but being a fan of older Genesis I seem to own most of them. You need a passage with a single, relatively pure, relatively hign frequency tone for some period of time, with the listener moving around the room while the tone is playing -- a.k.a. Steve Hackett on most of the early Genesis albums while I am doing anything other than planting my butt in the sweet spot.

Have been a long time reader of this forum, and finally decided to become part of it. Last summer I spent a lot of time reading about and listening to speakers. Well, I read about Axioms and listened to Monitor Audios, mainly. I think Chesseroo favorably compared the MA Silver Series to Axioms. So I figured the Monitors would give me a good impression of the Axiom sound. Spent a good two hours at a local hifi shop listening to the MA Silver and Gold series. Went in the morning during a weekday to avoid other customers to do some serious listening. Heck, I didn't even speak to a salesperson for about an hour and a half, which isn't necessarily bad. Close call between the S6 and S8, but in the end I went the the GR 10. They had just a tad more detail in the uppers, and threw out an incredible soundstage. As much as I like GR 10s, I'm still thinking about floorstanders. In any case, congrats on the new purchase. By the way, I know I'm new to the boards, but would love to listen to the S8s and the M60s. I'm not too far from where you are.

I'll send you a PM.

Would love to see some pics of those new MA speakers BW.

I would be happy to oblige, chess, but I don't have them yet. The guy at GG said they should be in today or tomorrow(he was, BTW, a pretty decent fellow. He started off talking about line conditioners, bi-amping, etc... but ended up being more interested in what I have learned from all of you.

).

More on Joseph D'Appolito:

http://www.usheraudio.com/profile-d'appolito.html
http://www.usheraudio.com/

I have always been an advocate of MA. Great speakers. The rosemah finish is one of a kind. Don't try removing the tweeter cap unless you are certain in its removal. Thats how I dimpled my tweeter.

Saturn, it's funny you bring that up. I spent about 15 minutes on the phone many moons ago with one of Monitors designers and asked about the caps. Did I need to pull them etc. He told me that the sonic difference in the highs is very minute and if I understood him correctly, humans might not be able to even hear it. Very nice fellow by the way. It's a shame they are so blasted hard to contact as once you get to them, they are very helpful.

Now given that, I could swear I hear a change when I pull them but I have left them on all my MA's.

I went the hi-tech route and bent a paper clip to help remove the screens on my MAs. The magnet is fairly strong and I feared the screen would scratch the tweeter if I slipped. Kind of felt like a high stakes version of "Operation" (without the nerve wracking buzzer!). Really don't notice a sonic difference, no matter how much I try to convince myself otherwise.

Well, I picked up the MAs last night. Unfortunately, I barely had time to set them up and hear a few songs before the baby had to go to bed. First impressions:
-the Rosemah finish is nice, but not nearly as nice as the veneers on the Gold series or on the B&W 804s.
-compared to the M60s, the MAs seem much smaller, but are only an inch or so shorter.
-they are not as sensitive as the M60s (big surprise to me).
-they sound remarkably similar, with the exception that the MAs are "softer" sounding and project a more recessed stereo image.

Hopefully I'll be able to set them up for A/B comparisons today and give them a more thorough listening.

Also, the MA manual is a joke - full of talk about biwiring, break-in time and other techno-babble marketing hype. Most surprising was how poorly the manual is written. Call me a pedant, but aren't the English supposed to have a better grasp of their language than ignorant Americans?

Looking forward to your final thoughts between the two.

In reply to:
Also, the MA manual is a joke - full of talk about biwiring, break-in time and other techno-babble marketing hype.

Gotta give the aUd1o l33t what they want to see... give them that good OOBE (out of box experience) that makes them swell with pride at the technological marvel that they have just bought. The last thing anyone wants to see after dropping a few grand on speakers is "let's face it, these are speakers - some wire, some metal, something that goes flopity-flop to move air and some wood to hold it all together."

Bren R.

LOL! I think you nailed it.

Will...I am still working on a plan to be out your way on Sunday.

Dam BigWill, from your initial thoughts it sounds like you already have your mind made up on a few points. I'm shocked that the M60's and the MA8's sound remarkably similar. When I played with the MA8's and MA10's they sounded nothing at all like the M80's. Now you have we wondering again just how different the M60's are from the M80's.

Order a pair of M60s ya know ya want to

Ah....................no. I'm more then happy with my Monitor gear............but I will take that Rotel amp you are running!

In reply to:
they sound remarkably similar, with the exception that the MAs are "softer" sounding and project a more recessed stereo image.

Thats what I found with my old Silver S6. But if you actually compared A-B on both speakers that recessed stereo image is actually the soundstage 5-10 feet behind the speakers while the M60 has a more forward 1 foot in front of the speakerse presentation. The MA has a greater depth in soundstage at least thats what I found with the MA S6. The S6 nonetheless had a similar sound with the M60. But I found the MA S6 to have greater bass than the M60. And no ... the MA S6 does not have a bass hump. The M60 does not have a flat frequency response in our regular rooms.

Considering the M60 is cheaper ... if one can't chuck out the extra cash for the MA S6 or MA S8 then the M60 is excellent. But for those of us labelled "Elite" that CAN afford it...hell I'd take the MA S6.

I would really like to know your findings BigWill & Curtis. As all rooms are different and outcomes can vary. In your case the M60 can be king.

Just giving a hard time John

.I think I'll keep the amp,I'm quite happy with it.

As you should be. I'm a huge fan of Rotel amps and pre pros. For some reason they can't seem to get DVD players right but that is another thread!

Curtis, I haven't had time - and won't have time - to A/B these before Sunday, so I do hope you're able to make it out here that day. Keg in the garage is still about half full, BTW.

Neverhappy, the top end sounds much different, but the rest of the speaker is similarly "neutral". Maybe it is my knowledge that the drivers on the S8s are also metal prejudicing my observations. And, again, I haven't A/B'd them yet.

Saturn, I think you are pretty accurate in what you said about the soundstage differences between the two, but in my house the S8s seem to produce a soundstage roughly even with speaker placement - some instruments slightly forward, some slightly recessed. The M60s, of course, throw everything out front.

I listened to some more of my favorite recordings (favorites on my M60s) to see what I might lose by keeping the S8s. The largest audible difference was noticed on some Bach harpsichord concertos. String basses and violins were more prominent, the harpsichords less so, the treble energy from the harpsichords greatly decreased. I'm not sure whether I like the speaker change for this recording or not, but other favorites still sound very good.

I did a quick calibration for HT and popped in Nemo. They blended very well. Lost some high frequency ambient effects, but seemed to gain background music - particularly violins.

nice incentive!!

I am working on killing two birds with one stone on my drive out there.

Don't kill birds Curtis.
That's not nice.
But DO take pics of BW new speakers. All this talk about MA again and i'm itching to head back to the store that sells them. Too bad i dislike the vendor.

A half keg is a good incentive, depending on what is in the keg.

If you keep your keg in a shrubbery, then a beer in hand is worth two in the bush.

Hmmm. That doesn't sounds quite right.

BigWill: Pull the Monitor Audio 2.5-3 feet from the wall. Point the speaker straight ahead no toe in. Plug the lower ports on the S8 with the supplied grey port bungs (so bass does not overpower the mids when room is carpeted and low ceilings). You'll notice a difference...I hope...I'm unsure of your environment.

Go to bed. You're obviously exhausted...

chess, I think you would approve - it's a locally-brewed (5 miles from my house

) brown ale. Odd in that it is distinctly herbal, very yeasty, over hopped for the style, but still good; smooth, sweet and clean. And cheap - $50 for 7.9 gallons.

Saturn, thanks for the suggestions. Pulling them out that far from the wall is an impossibility. They have a good 18"-24" currently, which is more than my M60s had due to their greater depth. The ceilings are 9', room carpeted, walls irregular except the back wall.
Too much bass hasn't been a problem. In fact, the S8s seem to have much less bass in my house than they did in the store - I'm wondering if the S10s would have been a better choice.

But the mids are very good - better than they were in the store. I will experiment with the plugs, though, and see what happens.

I hope I'm not giving the impression that I am disappointed with the S8s - they're really very, very nice.