I just received the final piece to my HT puzzle. My HK 7300 receiver just arrived. I can't wait to hear this system! After months of heavy deliberation and very thorough research, I decided to go with a Bose Acoustimass system. The salesman I spoke to reiterated many times how it is, in his opinion, the best sounding system available at any price. I questioned that for a second, but if he is wearing a yellow Best Buy shirt, how can I argue with that? So needless to say I had to have it. I am so excited. I got all of the teeny satellite speakers and the small subwoofer for the unbeatable price of $3995 INCLUDING shipping. What a freaking awesome deal. Anyway, I can't wait to hear this thing. I should note that Bose now has part ownership of my kidneys if I can't make all the payments....
Ok I got a little carried away with that, it just wrote itself
. Seriously, my question (might be just as silly as the above) is about the power cord that comes with the receivers. I have heard a few say that using a better cord can improve performance. Any of you tried this? Dang, maybe I should hand my money over to the Best Buy guy right now anyway. By the way, just so a few board members don't get jealous, I have the HK 635 and not the 7300.
Well i have the 525 an i upgraded teh Power Cord on it did it help ? i think so , will someone else ? i dunno i jus know i did it cause i wanted to to have piece of mind i have always been the type that u buy a better cable then it will improve your Sound , now my Speaker Cables are Mit 2's an i know definately that it made a difference in my Sound so good luck with whatever or if u decide to upgrade the Cable i know there will b others chiming in later to give you their thoughts.
Wow. Amazing day on the boards. The only thing we're missing is a speaker cable argument, or maybe green magic markers.
I seriously, seriously doubt that a power cable can make a difference. Think about all the cable coming into your home and through the walls. Is that "high quality cryogenic silver infused magic copper?" No. It's copper. That last 6 feet is not going to mysically clean the evil electrons out of the flow of good electrons.
Apparently everyone else didn't find the Bose thing near as funny as I did. Oh well. The evil electrons thing did remind me of pmbuko's classic post on "confusing the electrons." Freaking hilarious.
www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tech&Number=60993&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
Oh, I found the Bose thing pretty funny. I just got my knickers in a twist over the power cords thing and forgot to comment on the Bose thing!
Great idea, not only did I upgrade my power cord, but also the wiring that it connects to inside the house, plus the electrial panels. In fact I now have one panel per circuit, plus I upgraded the wiring connecting the house to the electrical lines outside. In addition I have now petitioned my municipality to let me replace my power grid all the way back to Niagara Falls.
Where is my medication?
This is what I was looking for. Consider the power cord upgraded. Best Buy guy here I come!
In reply to:
That last 6 feet is not going to mysically clean the evil electrons out of the flow of good electrons. [
True but with a better after market cord you should get better RFI and EMI resistance and also depending on the quality of the cord in question, better shielding. As you know most audio manufactures recommend not running analog cables etc across a stock power cord. With a better quality power cord you eliminate this worry. Does it make it sound any better? Unless you had interference in the first place, I doubt it but there are worse upgrades out there to do...........think isolation cones as one example.
On a side note, I have been upgrading my power cords long before I got into the business...................so let's keep the self promoting cracks to a minimum as that is not what I'm trying to do here!
Coming from someone who has actually
used after market powercords, yeah, adding them to the M&K S-150P's I had made a difference. The difference was subtle to me though, and was only worth it to me since I received a massive discount (75% off) on'em; yet, to many of my friends (who have actually used after market powercords in their systems) have said to have noticed a significant improvement. Will it improve the performance of your receiver enough that you will hear a difference? Maybe. It sure wouldn't hurt to try and find out. If
your ears hear a difference...cool! If not, you've saved yourself some cash. Let us know how it turns out.
This isn't totally relevant, but wtf.
My Good Guys has an "upgraded" demo set-up for auditioning speakers in-store. It features Halo amps in a bi-amp configuration, line conditioners, fancy wires, etc... With all that crap it still has a nasty hum/whine that my simple Onkyo/Denon set-up with standard power cords, etc..., lacks. Maybe all that crap is the cause of the whine?
Regardless, the salesworms think it's the cat's meow!
IMO, use the money saved on power cord/speaker wire upgrades and apply it to better speakers and sub.
meeee-owww, baby.
Just in case any one goes looking at Halos at Good Guys, don't even think of buying from them. They will sell you a set, and then delay delivery in hopes of making a deal with you on the demos. They can no longer purchase Parasound products, and have about 30 stores with the Halos on display, I learned this info the hard way.
Damn, I was just heading out to Good Guys to buy some Halos. My puny Denon just isn't cutting it for me anymore.
Dennis, I was in goodguys fresno(somebody has to live here
) a week ago browsing around and noticed that parasound wasn't on display anymore. I asked the salesman why and he said they no longer have a contract with them. Its a shame they put the screws to you.
Btw now goodguys are selling monster amps instead.
Man! since I know what you really ordered, I was laughing butt off.
Ya, GG had the Monster amps, and the Halos were thier top line units, may be they are just going to stay with Monsters now. *shrug* But then CompUSA bought out Good Guys, so who knows how the stores will change.
TNT, on the power cord thing, this is yet another absurdity that has sprung up in the past few years. Standard power cords are rated to handle well over 1,000 watts and, for example, even are adequate for hair dryers which typically use 1,500 watts or more continuously at full blast. Audio receivers are nowhere as severe a burden as are hair dryers. The audio engineers who worked to design a product which would provide audibly flawless amplification don't then sabotage their own amps with something which wouldn't allow it to work as designed.
This does create yet another opportunity for the charlatans peddling exotic cables to prey on the gullible. Despite the implausibility of the entire concept it was recently the subject of a blind listening test reported
here by a writer with a history of sharing many of the bizarre audio delusions which float around. Again, the results were a random distribution around 50%, including an individual who even after the test(but before he was shown his results)was confident that he had clearly recognized differences.
Well that sure was a diplomatic totally unbiased post done with thought towards those that have already posted their own views.
Problem is, it still doesn't address why oh so many manufactures recommend not crossing analog cables over power cords? Perhaps your correct when you state they would not do anything to sabotage their own amps but what about other components in the system? Keep in mind JohnK, that not everyone here agrees with your views and you posting and implying that we are fools when you don't agree with something is getting a little annoying.
Not everyone who sells after market audio products is a charlatan and you implying such is rude. Don't paint everyone the same color with that cynical brush you like to wave around. Hell re-read my post in particular and review the following:
In reply to:
Does it make it sound any better? Unless you had interference in the first place, I doubt it
The power of suggestion that I learned the hard way today:
I finally installed my QS4 rear centre channel - popped in X-Men 1.5 to give it a listen. I was shocked and amazed at how much "fuller" the THX opening was, and how much more enveloping the rain in the prison camp was over just the surrounds.
Then I realized I hadn't enabled the Rear Centre on the receiver.
Yes, the power of suggestion is a wonderful, wonderful thing...
Bren R.
NeverHappy,
I'll agree and disagree with you. JohnK has not once implied that people who purchase cable-based system improvements are fools. He is perhaps the most straighforward, no-nonsense, nothing in-between-the-lines poster on this board. Also, there is a big difference between 'foolish' and 'gullible'.
I do agree, however, that many manufacturers are not charlatans but believe wholeheartedly that their products make a beneficial difference. They do no deserve to be lumped in with the charlatans, but the claims they make should be tested, nonetheless.
I always enjoy your posts, John.
Give 'em hell.
In reply to:
They do no deserve to be lumped in with the charlatans, but the claims they make should be tested, nonetheless.
I agree totally but the coin also flops on the other side. If manufacture X say's their power cord for example makes a difference and someone say's it doesn't, would you not agree that both sides need to provide proof? If someone states that they heard an audible difference in sound would that make them a liar? I don't think the onus would be on the person making the claim to prove it right or wrong, the onus would be on the naysayer to prove him wrong. Granted I'm not in the "My new power cord gave me way more bass etc" camp but I do buy into the value of a decent cord.
For all who care, this is being debated all over the net. A current one that is getting a little out of hand can be found here:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
In reply to:
I always enjoy your posts, John. Give 'em hell.
Thank you. I'm here all week!
Next show starts...............as soon as I find another post I disagree with.
Hmmm. It seems BigWill was responding to JohnK.
In reply to:
would you not agree that both sides need to provide proof?
Ideally, yes. But in cases where money is changing hands, I believe the burden of proof lies squarely on the shoulders of those who stand to profit.
In reply to:
Hmmm. It seems BigWill was responding to JohnK
Maybe? To many dam John's around here. Hard to keep track these day's.....but good catch on pointing it out and making me look like a complete fool!
This made so much sense that I just wanted to give everyone a chance to read it again:
Peter wrote:
"But in cases where money is changing hands, I believe the burden of proof lies squarely on the shoulders of those who stand to profit."
If someone says that they hear something and another says they don't, I don't think the burdon of proof is on the second person at all. I would ask "Was it under controlled, double-blind conditions?" If not, I refer you to Bren's post. Haven't we all, at some point, thought we heard a difference at a time when we expected to based upon a change, only to realize that the change hadn't been made in the way we thought? I have.
JohnK is a man of science, logic and, in my opinion, principals. All he is saying is: "Where's the proof"?
It is soooo easy to hear what you WANT to hear. Until I sit down in a double-blind test and hear a difference, I think it's silly. If another person sits down in a double-blind test and statistically, DOES pick the "correct" power cord more often, than I will believe there's a difference. But otherwise, let me say in a non-PC way: "It's crap".
When I first got into Hi-Fi back in the 60s, I read the simple answer to much of this:
Keep the power cords away from the signal wires. If they must cross; cross at 90 degrees.
Works for me, at no extra charge. (But...If a person has the extra funds to purchase the goodies to get what he or she "thinks" will add even one iota of improvement to the sound, and it adds to the fun of the hobby, then by all means....)
You're right. I should have added "whatever floats your boat"! People can spend their money on whatever pleases them; it's their right and none of my business. I would encourage it.
My concern are the dealers who DO profit in continuing to propagate very expensive add-ons to people, based almost entirely on these myths that continue to be spread by people who haven't A/B'd them themelves. Those who are new to this hobby will spend money needlessly because they "read somewhere", that someone's cousin heard a difference. People in favor of these add-ons will say that I have my head buried in the sand and that I'm closed-minded. I'd counter that with: "If you think that it's not possible that you're hearing a change based upon perceived expectations, than I would say that your head is buried in the sand and that you're closed-minded. A/B them under controlled circumstances, then talk to me.
Let me ask this: Has anyone ever opened a high end magazine and read an ad for an add-on product that said: "We took 100 people into a room and, under controlled circumstances and double-blind testing procedures, 78 of them preferred the system that used our product?" I've never seen an ad like that. Why? Because the people that are making money by selling this crap won't run the tests! Their sales will be much better if they simply put a few quotes in there:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I can't believe how your product just "opened up" my soundstage! The violins' warmth and texture overwhlmed me to the point of tears. Placing the small pyramid over the power supply in my disc transport was easy, and it's a conversation piece for my friends (who are astounded at the great sound as well). Thank You!"
MB, Toledo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So let me say again: If someone feels that they want to buy products like this, and they feel it increases their enjoyment, more power to them. But that doesn't mean I don't hold those dealers and manufacturers responsible for propagating myths that others will take on blind faith.
Who does it hurt? Well, my take on it is that if the hundreds or sometimes thousands of dollars that people pay for these items were instead put into better speakers, room treatments, more SACDs, a nicer or bigger TV, or even their kids college fund, they would go to a far better use.
And besides, dishonest people and those who market their products dishonestly p*ss me off, and this field is full of them.
In reply to:
Let me ask this: Has anyone ever opened a high end magazine and read an ad for an add-on product that said: "We took 100 people into a room and, under controlled circumstances and double-blind testing procedures, 78 of them preferred the system that used our product?" I've never seen an ad like that. Why? Because the people that are making money by selling this crap won't run the tests! Their sales will be much better if they simply put a few quotes in there:
no. but does it say that on your box of cereal no. does it say that in car ads? no so if no other product is held to the tested double blind standard why should power cables. everthing is sold by marketing. did we all buy bose? no we spent a little time to research and found out bose is way overpriced and does not live up to there marketing. even the total novice could spend five minutes go to any audio forum and hear the debate on cables then realize he needs more info to make his cable decision. we need to stop blaming "The Man" and blame ourselves if you dont research your purchase and just go by marketing you are at fault. that said i dont beleive a power cord would make a difference.
Jake
In reply to:
no. but does it say that on your box of cereal no. does it say that in car ads? no so if no other product is held to the tested double blind
But Jake, you're mixing apples and oranges here. While I agree that the buyer must accept responsibility here as well, you really can't easily compare these situations. Anyone can determine what breakfast cereals they prefer. Nothing fancy needs to be done...just buy a box of each and get a spoon. Anyone can test drive a car (or several) before they buy one. And there are easily discernable differences. It's not nearly so simple to determine whether a power cable really makes a difference without a complex testing situation.
In reply to:
even the total novice could spend five minutes go to any audio forum and hear the debate on cables then realize he needs more info to make his cable decision.
Right. But how, then, does he make that determination? Where does he get the info and what type of info is it? Hard evidence or hearsay? My concern is that there's nothing BUT heresay out there. No one,
especially the marketers and manufacturers, provide evidence. The question is "why not"? If they're so sure that their products make a difference, they should be
anxious to set up a controlled listening test. Yet, they never do. Seems obvious to me.
Jake, just so you know, I
did read that you don't "believe" in power cords either, so I don't want this to come off as an attack on you! I'm just looking at it as a healthy debate. Everything's cool on my end! Maybe there's no reason to say that, but I figured I would anyway since we've all seen things get blown out of proportion on bulletin boards if someone takes something personally!
Mark it is cool. no the cereal comparison may be closer to apples to apples than you think is trix the best tasting noone knows it about prefrence no scientific data to prove its subjective just like sound.
Jake
i say,if youre happy with the product you purchase,the price you paid,and the differance it makes in your system,then its worth it.oppinions are good-your final decision is better,may youre wires bring your ears many,many years of happiness
NeverHappy, I enjoy every one of your posts as well.
The notion of setting up a double-blind listening test to determine if people can differentiate one power cord from another is so absurd. I'm getting that "I'm an alien" feeling again.
Let me just add in that when car manufacturers claim things, in the small print they have to state where they got the numbers. Check car ads where they talk about 0-60 times. In the small print, they talk about whether its their own tests, R&T, C&D, Motorcrap, etc.