VP150 Upgrade Warranted? Receiver Suggestions?

Hello Axiom people,

I've been lurking these forums off and on for a couple of years now since I bought Axioms for my media room (90% home theater, 10% music). I'm more than pleased with this purchase.

I'm not an audiophile by any stretch, so be patient with me if I'm explaining myself poorly.

The media room is about 12 x 16 x 7.5. I have a 5.1 setup -- 60s, 100, QS8s (powered by a Denon 3803) and a SVS sub. When watching HDTV and other cable channels such as HBO or Encore, I notice the VP 100 gets quite a workout. That's fine and all, but I've noticed it doesn't sound as "full" as, say, the 60s, if that makes any sense. To my ears, voices could be a little deeper, a little larger. It sounds a bit "small" to me. By the way, the TV, 60s and 100 are about 8.5 feet from the couch. the 100 rests on top of the TV cabinet. (A couple of rubber doorstops help point the speaker toward the viewer/listener. Heh.)

Anyhow, with a small room (about 1445 cubic feet, right?) to work with, would it be overkill to consider moving up to a VP 150 for the center? I'm interested in the quality of the sound experience, not so much buying a bigger speaker for the hell of it. Any thoughts here? Do you need more information?

OK, next topic: I'm going to build a second AV setup in another room that's about 12 x 19 x 7.5. This will be for 65% music and 35% HT. I'm planning on 60s, QS8s, VP 100 (possibly the one I'll swap out for the 150 in the primary HT room) and a subwoofer to be determined.

My pop-music tastes are all over the map -- the Replacements, the Clash, Los Lobos, Exile-era Stones, Al Green, Wilco, Aretha Franklin, Uncle Tupelo, the Jayhawks, Aimee Mann, Richard (and Linda) Thompson, Dylan, the Pixies, Elvis Costello, Outkast, the Roots, Nirvana and some Beatles.

Save for a few SACDs and DVD-Audio discs, I'll be listening to CDs primarily as intended: two channels.

I don't listen to music at ear-splitting levels, but I often like to crank it up.

Quality of the music experience is important to me here. At the same time, HT features such as sync delay and video conversion are welcome, too.

I'm shopping for a receiver that that can power these speakers. I'm pretty flexible with the budget: $500 to $1,000.

I've been considering the Harman/Kardon 630 or 635 or perhaps another Denon, but I'm open to suggests. Got any?

Thanks for your help!

T., welcome. It's difficult sometimes to use words to describe a sonic impression, and it's uncertain what the "small" sound of the VP-100 really means. Is it possibly just a matter of level calibration that increasing the center channel by a dB or two with the 3803 would help? The VP-150 is said to have somewhat wider dispersion for off-axis listening, but this may have nothing to do with what you're talking about. It also is said to have a somewhat higher ultimate output capacity, but the VP-100 should have plenty for your listening distance and room size. So, I'm inclined to doubt that you need the 150. As I said, try increasing the center channel level if you haven't already experimented with that.

So far as a receiver for your new setup, there're several excellent ones in your price range, and I'll especially bring to your attention the HK635 which is offered by J&R Music at a very good price of a little under $700 with shipping included.

I'll also throw in for free a comment on your "as intended", relating to playing CDs in two channel. We shouldn't be confined to the limits of the format if we have the capability to reproduce it with a little more realism by extracting the ambience naturally present to various extents in the two channels and playing it from surround speakers, where it belongs. Using processes such as DPLII, Logic 7 and Neo:6 can often help, depending on how much reflected ambience is present in the recording.

Hi Tweedy,

I'll pretty much second everything JohnK had to say. Keep in mind that neither the VP100 or the VP150 is going to sound exactly like the M60s. Just the difference in cabinet size will make a difference. The question shouldn't be "does my center channel sound just like my mains"? It should be "does my center channel do it's job? Do voices sound reasonably natural? Can I easily understand the dialog in most cases (sometimes the source is the problem, and not the speaker)?"

If you're not satisfied with the answers, in your receiver's speaker setup menu, try raising the level of your VP100 by just 3dB, and see if that helps. This is allegedly the smallest increment human hearing can detect, and I run my center 3 dB hotter than the my mains. In my room, and my setup, I feel it helps intelligibility, without spoiling pans across the front 3. YMMV.

I also agree with John when it comes to using your receiver's processing capability. There are I few instances when I prefer listening in stereo, but by and large, I like the spacial quality the processing adds. MANY feel differently, and much prefer to listen in stereo only. Give it a try and see how YOU feel.

JackDude wrote:

In reply to:
try raising the level of your VP100 by just 3dB, and see if that helps. This is allegedly the smallest increment human hearing can detect,

I thought 3dB was what people could easily detect, but smaller changes were frequently detected by many?

From HomeTheaterMag: "In sound, decibels generally measure a scale from 0 (the threshold of hearing) to 120-140 dB (the threshold of pain). A 3dB difference equates to a doubling of power. A 10dB difference is required to double the subjective volume. A 1dB difference over a broad frequency range is noticeable to most people, while a 0.2dB difference can affect the subjective impression of a sound."

I know. I seem argumentative today.

"ALLEGEDLY"

1. "The ear has a logarithmic response.

To make your amplifier sound twice as loud you must boost the power by 10 times. (+10 dB)

If you only double the power (+3 dB), then you will only just be able to detect the increase in volume."

Truthfully, I can find sources which say + 1 db is "just barely noticeable." But then, that's why I used the word ALLEGEDLY when citing 3dB.

Hey, I'm not gonna argue. Lemme buy you a beer and we'll listen to some music!

Welcome Tweedy, Just my 2 cent worth. I've got a larger room (about 2400+ cu ft). I went with the VP 150 and I'm really pleased with it-my room layout is challenging for home theater but the 150 performs well and best of all I don't have even a twinge of "upgrade-itis". I'm powering M22's, VP150, QS4's and a Dayton 10" sub with the HK 630. You can find great deals on HK's Ebay site on the 630 if you want to go the refurbished route. As previously noted there are also good deals to be had on the 635. Either one will serve you well-main difference is the addition of the Room EQ feature on the 635.

First off, thank you for the responses. Much appreciated!

JohnK, I'm not seeing that J&R Music special you mentioned. The 635 lists for $749.99 there.

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4020306

Perhaps the special is over.

While John and Jack are very smart guys, I have yet to find one CD I have that is more involving in a DSP mode than in good ole 2 channel stereo. My dedicated 5.1 surround SACD's are quite impressive, but DTS Neo6 and Pro Logic II just don't do it for me. Maybe they have better recievers than I do.

Nah, I think it's a personal thing. I happen to really like Neo6, both from Dennis's Halo and my H/K.

I don't like any of the ambience modes my Denon offers but think that, most of the time, PLII does surprisingly well in music mode.

In reply to:
Nah, I think it's a personal thing.

Exactly! There is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to this issue. It's all about what YOU find pleasing.

ditto, my 3805 has a bunch of DSP modes that aren't worth the time to flip through. (other than the novelty factor when you first get it) though the "Mono Movie" mode did sound rather good when i watched "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad"

In reply to:
So far as a receiver for your new setup, there're several excellent ones in your price range, and I'll especially bring to your attention the HK635 which is offered by J&R Music at a very good price of a little under $700 with shipping included.

John, I see that J&R has the 635 listed as $749 now. Maybe it will come back down.

Quote:
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ditto, my 3805 has a bunch of DSP modes that aren't worth the time to flip through. (other than the novelty factor when you first get it) though the "Mono Movie" mode did sound rather good when i watched "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad"
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I think the mute button would've worked better.

I'm thinking the Power button would make for the best AV experience with that one.

only if it had worked on my wife when she was laughing and making comments on the cheesy dialog in that flick!

$641 at One call. Open box special. personally, I'd just eat the bullet and buy the 7300.

www.onecall.com