Yamaha RX V2400. Bass out to sub or both?

Hello all- I've had my RX V2400 for quite some time now, and have it hooked up to an AXIOM setup w/M60, VP150, QS8's, and the EP500 sub. Set all speakers to small, crossover at 80hz, Bass out to "Sub" and everything sounds great.

However, playing around yesterday while listening to some 2 Ch Cd's out of the fronts and sub only, I noticed that when I left everything the same, but switched Bass out to "both", I got even richer bass that really filled my room. (which unfortunately is a perfect square), even w/front towers set to small.

The same went for any 2 channel source set in PLII mode.]

When I listen to 5.1 movie's it sounds the same w/either Bass set to Sub or Both.

Should I leave it on both? Am I taking anything away from the sub or possibly damaging my towers by doing this?

Or is this perhaps helping w/a nasty room mode due to square shape that may have been causing a dip in the mid bass region w/just the sub?

Thanks to all for any guidance.

I generally turn my sub off for 2 channel. 80's generate great bass.

DK, I haven't been able to fit together all the points that you described. My first thought was that the 500 wasn't working in 2 channel, which would be the case if you set M60s large and bass out "SWFR", or if you set "direct" for stereo. From what you say neither of these is the case. Setting "both" sends the lowest frequencies from "small" speakers to both the sub(also gets any LFE in movies)and the front main speakers. But this is also the case in 5.1, and you noted no difference. My general view is that the sub, especially one as good as the 500(double check that it was really working on 2 channel),should handle the lowest bass by itself and relieve the mains of the burden. Of course, if after checking things you really like it better that way, it's your choice.

The thing that is confusing me most is that there is a clear bass difference when set to both, even w/the mains set to small. I have confirmed that bass does come out of the sub to the same degree when set to either sub or both. Not sure why w/the large's at small, the towers are producing more bass when set to both. This additional bass seems to fill in a bid of mid bass gap that I had, but the logic makes no sense.

DK, I don't have a 2400 or similar model here, but my interpretation of the Yamaha manual language covering front speakers "small" and bass out "both" is that the front speakers would also get the low bass when they're selected with the "both" setting even if set "small". If you're not certain that they do, leave all settings the same but simply manually turn off the sub. Then switch between "swfr" and "both" to see if the mains get low bass on "both" even when "small". This wouldn't explain why you didn't note a similar effect with 5.1 material.

>>Not sure why w/the large's at small, the towers are producing more bass when set to both.

Did you mean "w/the mains at small..." ?

If so, my guess is that the "set sub to both" setting is over-riding the "set mains to small" setting so the effect you are getting is the same as setting the mains to large.

The "sub:both" setting would seem to be meaningless when your mains are set to small. Note that I have not red the 2400 manual, I'm just extrapolating based on how my HK operates...

Just a guess though...

In reply to:
If so, my guess is that the "set sub to both" setting is over-riding the "set mains to small" setting so the effect you are getting is the same as setting the mains to large.

The "sub:both" setting would seem to be meaningless when your mains are set to small. Note that I have not red the 2400 manual, I'm just extrapolating based on how my HK operates...

That's not quite exactly how the Yamaha receivers operate...

To clarify each... when you set MAIN to SMALL "The unit directs the low-frequency signals (90Hz and below - I have a fixed crossover) of the main channel to the speakers selected with "1E BASS"." (from my Yammie manual)

So you have full frequency info going to the MAINs channel... if you set the speaker set to SMALL for them, anything below 90Hz (in my case, YMMV) is sent to what you set BASS to:

SWFR - all that info goes to the sub (and if there is a specific LFE signal headed that way as well, it's mixed with that)
MAIN - sends both the low-end MAIN program audio (that sub 90Hz stuff) and the LFE channel to the mains.
BOTH - 'nuff said.

So since you've got M60s and an EP500, the "correct" settings would be LARGE mains (they get full range), and BASS set to SWFR (so LFE channel only goes to the sub).

-If you set MAINs to LARGE and BASS to BOTH, you're sending full range AND the LFE channel to the mains and the LFE channel to the sub.

-If you set the MAINs to SMALL and BASS to BOTH, you're sending that sub 80-90Hz info that it's rejecting from the mains back to the mains and to the sub, and the LFE channel to the sub mixed with the cast-offs from the mains.

Maybe a flowchart would help of what everything is and where it can be shunted to. the confusion comes from the fact there are two sources of the low-end... that low stuff from the mains and the specifically mixed .1 LFE channel.

Now repeat that with all the speakers in the system... if your REAR CT is set to small, the low end stuff from its signal is also mixed to the sub if BASS is set to SWFR or to the sub and mains if set to BOTH, etc, etc...

Did I clarify or make this worse?!?

Bren R.

BrenR- Thanks for clarifying. As an update, I do notice a difference w/5.1 material that I did not realize I was hearing before. I want to keep one setting for all sources, but as it stands now, I love the way music sounds when set to both, but even w/the sub at -10, it is too much for 5.1 mixes. At least I have plenty of bass at this point!!!

>>Did I clarify or make this worse?!?

That helps a lot... so the mains can be both a "source" and a "sink" for bass. You can set the speakers to "small" -- "strip the bass off the mains and send it somewhere" and also say "and by the way send all the stripped-off bass to the mains".

Cool. Can't do THAT on an HK

Bren, it appears that we're all in agreement on the bottom line for DK, i.e. that his M60s also get the lowest bass when the bass out is set "BOTH", even if the M60s are set "SMALL". Just to prolong this thread unnecessarily however, it appears that with M60s large and bass out both, only the sub would get LFE; the bass out setting "FRNT" on the 2400(or "MAIN" on yours)would send LFE to the front mains.

In reply to:
Just to prolong this thread unnecessarily however, it appears that with M60s large and bass out both, only the sub would get LFE; the bass out setting "FRNT" on the 2400(or "MAIN" on yours)would send LFE to the front mains.

Unless the 2400 is different, my 540 manual clearly states that BOTH sends LFE to the mains.

Bren R.

I'm eating crow here... JohnK had me reread my Yamaha manual.

Setting BOTH does NOT send LFE information to the mains. Setting BASS (Bass Out Mode) to BOTH sends LFE (.1 channel) to the sub and Low-frequency (ie: main program material below the crossover point) to both the mains and the subwoofer.

Selecting MAIN for the BASS setting does ignore the speaker setting of "SMALL" if it is set.

I humbly stand corrected.

Bren R.

You know, the first manufacturer that has a logic-driven setup that involves a series of questions: "Do you want deep bass coming out of your Center speaker?"..."Since you've indicated that you have a subwoofer, would you like the deepest bass to go through your sub or your main speakers?" will sell thousands to HT newbies and people who would have otherwise bought an HTIB.

... and the first manufacturer that includes a diagram showing the signal flow through the processing blocks and a coherent explanation of what the options do will sell thousands to everyone else

This is what drives me nuts about the way our industries handle high tech (computers & peripherals included). Instructions, interfaces and documentation are "dumbed down" for the newbies (but still totally unintelligible to them) and in the process the product becomes opaque and confusing even for people who *do* understand the domain.

In reply to:
... and the first manufacturer that includes a diagram showing the signal flow through the processing blocks and a coherent explanation of what the options do will sell thousands to everyone else

I misread the manual on this, the correct information WAS in there. Now, to my credit, it talks all through the SPEAKER SET documentation about the two types of low frequency sources (LFE channel and the low-frequency stuff rolled off when a speaker is set to small) and how the setting of 1E BASS determines where these go. On the bottom of the explanation of what BOTH means is a little blurb like (well, when we say both, we don't really mean both... what we mean is both for that low-freq signal stuff and sub-only for the LFE channel...) someone get these writers a dictionary!

Bren R.