I know this is an Axiom board.. and will be biased towards Axiom speakers, but that's okay. I am trying to decide between the following two speakers systems. Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated!

B&W
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Front: B&W 601 S3 bookshelf x 2 = $450
Surround: B&W 601 S3 bookshelf x 2 = $450
Center: B&W LCR 60 = $350
Sub: B&W AS600 = $500
Total cost = $1750 + tax ($88)
(probably would give me a 10% discount)
So.. Package deal: $1662.75

I have heard this system and am quite pleased with how it sounds. I have read the Axiom faithfull, however, and have read how many prefer the Axiom's over the B&W.

Pros: Sounds great, local dealer
Cons: "always will wonder if the Axiom's provided better sound"

Axiom
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Front: M22i x 2 - $440
Surround: QS8 x 2 - $500
Center: VP 150 - $385
Sub: HSU VTF-MK 2 - $500
Total Cost = $1825
Package discount = $1755

Pros: Well, can't tell you; haven't heard them
Cons: Cost more than B&W 601! Return shipping costs if not happy.

I could cut corners on the Axiom speakers, but this forum recommended what's there. I could go M3ti's for front and surround.. that shaves $340 off the cost of the system.

Should I gamble on Axiom speakers? Should I shave the $340 and go with m3ti's? Are the QS8 surrounds going to sound much better than a standard bookshelf? What else am I missing?

If you have not already done so, you might wish to do a forum search for the B&W 601 here. Several current Axiom owners have auditioned them, so are in a position to provide their impressions relative to the Axioms.

Personally, I would get the M22 / QS8 combo rather than the M3 option. You do not mention your room size. The QS4 might be an option to save a bit of money, as would the VP100 rather than the VP150.

You may wish to consult Axiom on their ordering/discount policy. It may be possible for you to try the M22's initially to decide if you like them and still get a package discount if you order the balace of the speakers within a certain amount of time.

What are you spending on stands, if anything? Is there an Axiom owner in your area that is amenable to auditions? Check the Hearing Things forum.

Actually, you'll find many non-Axiom owners that hang here, so it may not be as biased as you think, it is a great community.

Keep in mind if you order from Axiom's Factory Outlet on the Store Link above, you'll get 10% off everything, and then if you buy 5 or more items, you get the other 5% as well.

I can't comment on the Axiom M22's as I own the M60ti's, but it is my understanding they are one great speaker. In my months of auditioning I found the M60's to be better than the 603 series and equal or better than the 703's.

For surrounds, it is no contest, in my opinion there is noone else that makes a surround like the Axiom Qs8's, 4 drivers all in phase just envelopes you in sounds that appear to go right through you.

Not sure why your not looking at Axiom subs, cost I assume? I have the Axiom 350 which I love, I know there are others out there that are cheaper and have great sound. The Axiom 500 and 600 are also in another league of their own.

For Bookshelf speakers the M22's are hard to beat from what I've heard from other owners. They really could almost be classified as a small Tower

Thank you for the questions and thoughts. The room is 15x18 with a rear and side wall that are huge doorways. (appx 9' wide) I have posted the room before... here it is:

http://www.freewebs.com/epchristi/LIVING_ROOM3.jpg

I will do a search on B&W.. thanks. The axiom folks recommended the M3ti, QS8 and VP150... the forums said, spend the extra for the m22i.

That link wasn't working for me, so I'll post the image here:

I think after looking at the specs, the HSU just appear better and cost the same. It also came highly recommended from people on this board. I also read a few dissapointed axiom low-end subwoofer posts in this forum. That's the main decision there.

15'x18' sounds like M22s to me. I have an Axiom sub (EP175) and a HSU (STF-2). In terms of extension and overall performance there's not much of a contest -- the HSU is definitely the better performer. Axiom makes outstanding speakers, but I think it's only once you get into the upper range of their subs that they're truly competitive with brands like HSU and SVS.

You could save $100 if you were to go with the STF-2 instead of the VTF-2.

Having heard the B&W 600 series speakers, you may prefer the sound of the M3ti over the M22ti. (Given that you say you like the 600 series sound). The M22ti is a SUPER clear, clean, and articulate speaker. The 600 series are not. I'd almost call them "muddy sounding" if that makes any sense.

The M3ti is still a very clear speaker, but the high end isn't has detailed as the M22ti, and will give you a fuller, 'softer' sound.

Have you heard the B&W 700 series? Axiom sounds more like that (the 703 tower sounds particularly like the M60ti tower).

With nothing else to go on, I'd suggest:

M3ti mains
VP100 center
QS4 surrounds
(all above from Axiom Factory Outlet)
Hsu STF-2

That should save you some coin, and give you a sweet sounding system.

Craig is my audio Sensei.

No offense, Randy, I've just been listening to Craig for so long that I'm powerless to resist.

Do you remember the lesson grasshopper? Your funny Tom, actually if you haven't watched Napoleon Dynamite yet, the real Sensei is Rex Kwon Do

oh yeah "Vote for Pedro"

My only comment is about the B&W sub which my son, who owns 703s, said, "It sucks". I'm talking return to dealer sucks.

In reply to:

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Having heard the B&W 600 series speakers, you may prefer the sound of the M3ti over the M22ti. (Given that you say you like the 600 series sound). The M22ti is a SUPER clear, clean, and articulate speaker. The 600 series are not. I'd almost call them "muddy sounding" if that makes any sense.

The M3ti is still a very clear speaker, but the high end isn't has detailed as the M22ti, and will give you a fuller, 'softer' sound.

Have you heard the B&W 700 series? Axiom sounds more like that (the 703 tower sounds particularly like the M60ti tower).

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Like always, Craig is completely right. The 600 series (to most listeners) has a very muddy and chesty characteristic sound. I am definitely not a fan. The 700 series, however, sounds GREAT to me. Coincidentally, the 703 towers sound very similar to my M60s. I would highly suggest following Craig's advice if you liked the sound of the 600s better than the 700s. If you liked the B&W 700 series more than the 600 series, you should really aim for the M22ti speakers as mains, or M60s if you can swing the extra cash.

Hopefully you will give Axiom a chance because they really offer the best values for the price and their service is second to none.

In regards to "with nothing else to go on"... what else would you like to know to help you give me advice?

I would be glad to share.

I haven't heard the 700 series, but the thing I liked about the 601 bookshelf is that they were clear.

See.. the sound system I have now is terrible.. and my ears are used to listening to "way muddy".. so the 601's had very clear sound. I am not opposed to clear and will try listening to the 701's if my shop has them.

I must say this, too, I have been blown away by the helpfullness of the axiom audio experts! I have to agree with the service being second to none so far!

All I meant was what your personal taste in sound is. It's such a personal choice. Most of us hear really like clear, crisp audio...hence we own Axioms. Others really prefer a much more mellow, laid back sound, and would look elsewhere for speakers. Then there are others who don't know what they like yet. They're the lucky ones! They get to shop and listen to as many speakers as their brains and ears can handle. Once they've heard enough different speakers, certain aspects of their sounds will appeal to them.

Which are you?

Which am I? I probably fit most closely into the category of "I don't like what I have now and everything else sounds better."

Here is what I know for sure. I have tried the sony theater in a box... initially they have an impact for movies, but quickly you see they can't play music nor are they that great for movies. So.. a $500 theater in a box seems like a waste of money.

I listened to the paradigm speakers in a local shop. They sounded pretty good, but fell flat in the movie snipets I got to see and hear. This is where the B&W's shined. They filled the room much better and I could actually hear individual instruments and sounds much clearer on the CD's they had.

I have listened to the Infinity and Kipsch speakers at Best Buy, but I can't get a read on anything in that store. Our local Circuit City is in shambles, nothing is set up right and it's sort of depressing. Oh.. and no highs, no lows, must be Bose.

So, where does that put me? I don't like the tiny sound of theater's in a box and so far the B&W's impressed me because of their clarity. However, people in this group say they sound muddy, which really catches my attention.

I read reviews that say the axioms are "too bright," and don't know what that means. I also read reviews that say, "the QS8 blows everything else away".. and I am intrigued.

axioms are not too bright. Brightness hurts your ears, gives you headaches, causes ringing and what is called listening fatigue. I can listen to my setup for hours with none of these issues.

Many people confuse Bright with Detailed or accurate. Detailed would be a much better definition for Axioms, and so would accurate. The ability to hear all the instruments or sounds in a movie to an almost lifelike experience but not to the point where it causes fatigue. Go listen to some Klipsch speakers for extended periods of time, or turn up some cheap theater in box beyond it's limits for 10 mins, and you'll experence fatigue.

I have no experience with the other speakers you mentioned, but I have heard many Bose. Do not waste your time on Bose, don't even get me started. My old man has a complete Bose system thanks to some pimple faced salesman at futureshop.

I had the chance to audition some B&W from 600 series, and I didn't like them, they were too "polite" for the music I listen to, too thin I would say. Different issue with 700 series, especially 703s, they were awesome! On the other hand, I had the chance to audition Axiom M60s and that's it, I got them!! Great value for the money!!!

Go to the shop that had the B&W's. Give the 703's a listen. That is the closest to hearing what the "Axiom Sound" is that you'll get without actually hearing some Axioms. If you like that clear, detailed sound, then Axiom is for you.

If you're not sure about the sound you want, you should compare the m3 to the m22 and decide from there. The only way to do this properly is to do it in your home. You have 30 days to return the vanquished. If that is not an option, listen to Craig. Coincidentally, it was my dissatifaction with a pair of B&W 602s3 that lead me to this site and the in home autition of my M22tis.

>>I read reviews that say the axioms are "too bright," and don't know what that means. I also read reviews that say, "the QS8 blows everything else away".. and I am intrigued.

Bright in this context means emphasis in the 3-5 KHz range. Many speakers have a significant dip in this range to make them sound "smoother" -- the M3/M50 only have a small dip and the M2/M22/M60/M80 are flat or even bumped up a dB or two. The result is (a) on most material you hear more detail and clarity, (b) female vocals are exquisite, (c) badly recorded material hurts your ears more than on speakers with a response dip in this range. If you have a dip in the 3-5 KHz range you can play crappy material and have it sound pretty but you can't get away from that "muddy" sound even with high quality material.

The QS8s seem to be a remarkably good compromise between bipole/dipole and direct radiating surrounds, giving you the ambience effects you get with bipole/dipole speakers AND the precise imaging you get with direct radiators. They aren't actually quite as good as direct radiators for 5.1 music (my personal opinion, many here disagree) but they are very close and good enough that I use them happily for music as well. For movies, the QS speakers give the illusion of a much larger room without sacrificing precise sound placement. I like them a lot

epchristi,
i am also fairly new to thsi board (2 weeks). there are so many speakers out there. it would take a way too long to hear them all. i narrowed it down to psb/velodyne and axiom. i like the sound of the psb/velodyne. i heard that axiom used to make their speakers for them.

here is why i went with axiom. CUSTOMER SERVICE. each time i called there was someone nice on the other end and very helpful. if there was no answer they would call me back without ne leaving a message. this past thursday i requested via email for color samples. friday i got an email back saying it was sent out. monday it arrived. today (wednesday) i placed my order.

i went with the factory seconds to save a few bucks and i really don't need the speakers til feb or march. 10% off for factory seconds plus another 5% for 5 plus items you can't beat that.

one more thing is i think this is a very friendly message board with helpful people out the. thanks to all the axiom employees and all the helpful members of this borad.

CUSTOMER SERVICE, CUSTOMER SERVICE, CUSTOMER SERVICE
the best service i have had in such a long time i don't even remember when i had a great buying experience like this.

thanks,
Clarence

m60
vp150
qs8
ep500

Amen, Clarence.

Let us know how you like that EP500!