Finally decided to pull the trigger on an axiom setup. Here's what I am looking to get:
M80ti x 2 (front)
VP-150 (center)
QS8 x 2 (rears)
PB12-Plus/2 (sub)
Outlaw 990 PrePro
Outlaw 7125 Amp (125x7)
Denon DVD-1920
Samsung HL-R5667W HiDef DLP TV (already own)
XBox 360 (already own)
Any comments, suggestions, modifications or improvements to make this whole thing come together (cables, connectors, remotes, ect.)? Any changes to the components listed above?
Thanks.
Hello ATC Guy!
Wonderful system you have there. What kind of deal are they offering you at Outlaw for the 990/7125 combo? Also, do you listen to more music than movies? I think your speakers outclass your processor/amp selection. JMHO
Your system looks great, mabey throw in a logitech remote and some Blue Jeans Cable.
David, your selection is excellent and there's no good purpose in making minor quibbles. One point is that you termed the QS8s "rears", although you probably didn't mean that literally. Keep in mind that in a 5.1 setup they're side surrounds and should be positioned to the sides and possibly a couple of feet farther back than the seating position, so that they'll give a little rear imaging in the absence of back surround speakers in a 7.1 setup.
As to cables and wires, speaker wire can probably be bought most conveniently and inexpensively at a local source such as Home Depot. There are numerous sources for reasonably priced connecting cables, such as Cablesforless.com, MonoPrice.com and Trianglecable.com.
That's a very nice setup. The SVS subwoofer will make you you very happy in terms of hard hitting bass. How big is your room?
The great room starts at about 20x20 and opens into the dining area and kithen area too. The gear will be used for 60% movies/40% music, and type of music varies greatly from jazz to rock.
I was really concerned about the amp size, but maybe it'll work out just fine (any Outlaw people in the house?). I had considered going with the 7500 (200x5) amp, but wasn't sure if it was nessasary or would give a better sound and experience.
Also, I had considered just a Denon 3806 instead of the seperates. I was hoping for a little better sound from a standalone amp, and I've read great reviews on the Outlaw gear.
I have a friend who has the 990 processor and a stack of Outlaw 200 watt monoblocks driving a pair of M60 like Michaura M665s and M22 like M55s in the side surround positions. It does not sound nearly as good as the same speaker compliment another friend has using an old Outlaw 1050 receiver, or my set up using a Sony TA E9000ES processor and Anthem PVA5 amp. I know the room is a big variable, but I've had mine in 2 very different rooms as did my pal with the 1050, and both our systems sounded terrific in very different venues. We have the suspicion that the problem is the Outlaw monoblocks which may not play as nicely with Axiom type towers as do other amps.
So, the Outlaw 990 prepro should be OK? The question is the amp selection with Axioms. What are some good options for an amp in the $750-$1500 range? I'm pretty open to suggestions, so lets hear them.
Thanks.
I'm sure you have gone to the Outlaw forum and read all the posts on the 990 by now. Especially the requests for upgrades/modifications. You should get a good feel about how owners like it.
I would suggest the 7500 or 7700 amp if your go the separates route. Axiom 80s thrive on power at both low (IMHO) and high volume.
For nearly the same price of the Outlaw 990 you could have the
H/K 7300 that has plenty of options and power. If after you try it out and you feel you need more power then you could look at a good 2 channel amp for the M80s.
I think that you have one fantastic setup. I'm sure that you are going to love it.
I would enjoy hearing how you like the Outlaw amp. Outlaw is on my short list for a seperate amp. However, I am leaning toward the 7500.
In any case, best of luck to you on your new setup.
David, the 3806 would be excellent(and would be my suggestion), and the 990 plus 7125 would be equally so, although there wouldn't be any good reason for them to achieve the better sound that you were hoping for. You won't go wrong either way, but also consider cost.
I agree the 3806 would be an excellent choice, that's more than enough to drive your 80's. The 3806 will give you 120watts x 7 and save you some money.
Is there any point to having more than 125wpc for the M80's? I know the new Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXI(140wpc) looks good on paper, would that give me a little more leg room for the speakers? Or is the Denon the best bet for the money?
I've got up to $2,000 to spend on a receiver or seperates, so I've got some options, and I'm not opposed to used gear as well. Any other comments?
Using an amp is a personal preference, I use a 5 channel 200wpc to drive my fronts and surrounds and let my Denon drive the rears. The 80's like more power but it's not necessary. A suggestion would be to go with something like the 3806 and get a higher watt 2 channel amp to drive the 80's. Either way you go the system will sound great.
David, you really appear to be caught up a bit too much in the power thing. The M80s are slightly above average in sensitivity(91dB for 1 watt)and any of the units in the 100 watt or more area should have more power than would be needed. For example, the difference berween 120 watts and 140 watts is only 0.67dB in maximum sound level, which would mean that an M80 playing a peak at 112dB with 120 watts could play it at 112.67dB with 140 watts. The difference would be insignificant and you'd be highly unlikely to have a peak that high in the first place. A more commonplace occurrence would be playing at a comfortably loud average level of 81dB, which the M80s would need about a tenth of a watt to do.
The fact that you have the money available doesn't mean that it has to all be spent on this item. $500-$1,000 can buy you a whole bunch of CDs and DVDs to enjoy.
Maybe I phrased that wrong. What I meant to say is the sound differences and features in the Denon compared to the Pioneer, are they worth the extra cost? Some say the Pioneers are a little "warmer", and the Denon close to "neutral". I guess it's a personal choice which you prefer, and I wasn't sure if people who have tried these components have comments either way.
I'm finding that, for me, the price point and quality at which I would move from a single AV receiver to seperates is about $2,000. At $1,000-$2,000 there are options for typical good receivers, $2,000-$3,000 is the ability to split the components into decent seperates. Whether it's worth the extra cost to split, I guess that's the magic question.
In reply to:
that's the magic question
And it may only be answered by your ears. Two schools of thought here. One for receivers. One for separates. A lot of debate!
I started with a Denon 3805 and loved it. I wanted to try a amp and got the monoblocks. "MY" ears and my brain liked what I heard.
Try to audition both setups if you can. On paper the specs say one thing. A trial in your home is another thing.
IMHO.
Bug
Well said, There is no magic answer or we would probably all have the same equipment. Any good receiver will give you great sound, it's up to you and your ears on how far you want to go.
John,
I really like your advice.
I frequent a several photo forums (another expensive hobby
and there it is also so easy to acquire a several thousands worth of gear without anything left over for printing or for traveling to places with great photo opportunities.
David, if the Denon and Pioneer had their tone controls etc. in neutral positions and the sound levels were matched to within 0.1dB there would be no sound differences. Competent and conscientious audio engineers design their units to amplify transparently when operated within their design limits. The major differences in frequency response that the "warm/bright" fantasies would require simply don't exist. Those who say that the Pioneers are a "little warmer" are uninformed or misinformed.
As to the features, this is what you should carefully study and decide what's most important to you.
I had the 990/7125 in the house before the 7500/7700 amps were available, and decided to upgrade to the 7500 when it was offered. And I am very glad I did. To my ears, the 7500 made a significant difference with my M80v2's: clearer mid-range (especially vocals) and tighter base. I'm not sure if it's just the additional power or some other improvements that were made to the new generation amps, but I am very happy I have the 7500 powering my M80v2's, VP150 and QS8's for side surrounds. I'm no expert as far as the technical issues with these new amps, but I feel that the M80v2's, even though they are very efficient and will "play" with lesser amounts of power, love the extra "juice." At 4 Ohms the 7500 is feeding them 300 WPC and they really shine. The 7125 does a good job but if you can afford it, I'd go for the 7500.
By the way, the 990 is no slouch either. Realizing of course that I was moving up from an older, first generation Dolby Digital Yamaha receiver at 85 WPC, the level of detail the 990 pulls out of both CD's and DVD's is great. I'm very pleased with the set-up, but remember I moved up from a basic budget system, slightly better than HTIB.
FYI, my room is 16' x 25' with a vaulted ceiling, and I'm using my old Yamaha and a pair of NHT Superones for the rear surrounds for the time being. The system fills the room nicely although I find myself listening to just the M80v2's in stereo for music much of the time if it's a well engineered CD. They sound that good.
Regards.
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....but I feel that the M80v2's, even though they are very efficient and will "play" with lesser amounts of power, love the extra "juice." At 4 Ohms the 7500 is feeding them 300 WPC and they really shine...
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I apologize for my ignorance but I keep hearing things like 'm80 love the extra juice', or that they 'draw that amp power' and I don't think I understand that. Since they are already so efficient - 95dB/W/m - why do they need that extra power? They are already 3dB louder at the same power than, say, m60.
On that note, 300W into an m80 at the listening distance of 12 feet would result at more than 100 dB sound level. Do you really listen to that loud? I can't comfortably stand more than 80-85dB
Regards,
Gena
In my case if I'm listening to 2 channel, I may be in the kitchen about 50ft away and like to really turn up the volume without getting any distortion.
It may just be "between my ears", but the 80s sound better with the amp than without. High volume especially, but low too, IMHO.
Bug
Again, I'm no expert audiophile, but extra power is not just about loudness. I don't listen to anything exceptionally loud. From my experience which is admitedly limited, and based on my ears and not scientific data, the extra power brings more "depth" and substance and greater detail. A lot of "junk" (both amps and speakers) will play loud.
I remember being a freshman in college when a friend purchased a system with two seperate 250 watt Crown amps., a Crown pre-amp, a pair of KEF speakers and a Dual turntable (remember vinyl) from a high end audio store. We set everything up in his 10' x 10' bedroom in the house trailer he lived in, and listened to "Silk Degrees" by Boz Scaggs (boy am I dating myself with this post) in plain old stereo. It sounded absolutely awesome, and it wasn't about loudness. It was about detail and musicality. Something that scientific data may not always be able to measure.
Like I said, I'm no expert or technician, but I think I have a pretty good ear. To my ears, and maybe it's just psychological although I tend to keep a pretty good perspective on things, the M80's with the 7500 sounded more refined than with the 7125, not necessarily louder. If it was just about loudness, they'll play plenty loud with my 85 WPC Yamaha.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Regards.
I don't think it is just your ears Doug, I have not heard of one M80 owner that has changed to using seperate amps on them say they regret doing so.
Well, it just means that may be the 7500 is a better amp than the Yamaha - frequency response, noise level, harmonic distortions, etc. But not because of the extra power. With all the other characteristics being equal, the power just increases the loudness. At the same power level two otherwise equal amplifiers should sound the same.
Gena, the key word is "should." Just because it "should" doesn't means that it "does." And I was comparing the 7500 to the 7125, not the Yamaha (I was refering to loudness alone when I mentioned my old receiver).
You're right, there may be improvements made to the 7500 from the 7125 other than more power. However, the initial inquiry that started this thread was whether the 7500 sounded better with the M80v2's than the 7125. My experience, having had both amps in the house hooked up to the same M80v2's, was that the 7500 that I now own did indeed sound better than the 7125 that I used to own with those speakers. IMHO. Whether or not that makes sense scientifically, I can't say.
I also realize that "good sound" is a very subjective thing. As a friend of mine often says, "That's why they make chocolate and vanilla." What tastes better depends on who is doing the tasteing. How's that for being philisophical?
Regards.
After all that, I think I will get the Outlaw 990/7500 to go with the M80's. It's only money, right? I think I'm looking for a little higher quality in my components these days, not to mention the ability to have the speakers played at a higher volume and still sounding crisp and full. With all the good reviews these components have gotten, paired with the outstanding M80's, I don't I could go wrong.
I think you owe it to yourself to look into ATI (whom many believe are)the manufacturers of Outlaw. The ATI stuff is a little more money but apparently made to higher specs. Stands to reason, if you make the same product why make the competition's product as good as your own? Another brand is Odyssey, which is very well reviewd on the net. They both have upgrade programs that are very attractive. If your interested I can provide links but I have to be at my home computer. Let me know.
oz
In reply to:
apparently made to higher specs
If you look at the specs for the
Outlaw 7500 and the
ATI 2000, they are identical, right down to weight. You have to wonder what Outlaw gave up to get the price down, but if it was the electronics, then the specs wouldn't match up.
The ATI 2002 amp is the same cage and toroids as the 2007 amp. They add modules for channels, but not the toroids. Additional channels only take a share of the power of the toroids.
I sometimes wonder if the reason that some music may sound "better" with a more powerful amp may have something to do with the peak power requirements?
Most of the posts that I have read don't really distinguish between peak power and average power. I suppose that may be because most posters are not engineers and don't really understand the difference, anyway.
Bottom Line: you could have extremely high peak power requirements to properly reproduce a sound track, yet the average power could be quite nominal.
Just something to think about.