Hi, thanks to everyone for their help over the last few months!.... My M60's, VP150, 2 x QS8, EP500 have arrived in Syd Oz on Monday but I am away on Biz all week - would you belive it!. I get back Fri PM and want to double check that for the initial setup with the V2600 I should:
1) set speakers to small
2) set cross over for the sub to 80
3) let the Yami do its thing with the mic for balancing
3) crank it up an enjoy!
Thanks
Nathan
Those are all good start points. I have a Yamaha 657 and my personal preference is to set the speaker levels, distances and speaker size all manually using a SPL meter rather than letting the receiver do it. But that's just me. However, the receiver can get you started and then you can let your ears tell you how to tweek it further. Enjoy it all!!
In reply to:
1) set speakers to small
2) set cross over for the sub to 80
3) let the Yami do its thing with the mic for balancing
3) crank it up an enjoy!
1). yes.
2). yes.
3). yes.
3). (a?.) Definitley yes.
But I would test different large/small and crossover settings to see what I liked best?
I'm sure you are anxious to get back home.
The 80Hz crossover level is not set in stone, but is a great place to start. You may find the 60Hz crossover to be better.
Have fun with your awesome speakers, and let us know what you think!
OK, Got back this arvo and first thing was to start setting up the gear! Hooked up the Fronts and for the first few minutes was very aware of what silibrance (if that is the word) was for the first time but within a few minutes of listening to pure direct it seemed to settle down (or my ears did). Got the others up and going and again all so far so good but then came the EP500. I’ve so far not got it anywhere near what I’d call OK (but I’m sure it is my ineptitude at setting this puppy up).
1st EP500 Attempt at setup – Sounded terrible, very boomy, laggy/slow, and easy to localise. But then again I could not get the Yami to do an Auto Setup as all I would get was an W3 Error from the Amp (“Adjust the output volume of the subwoofer”) if the sub was on. It was also it the corner of the room which I’m to understand is not the always a good placement option.
2nd EP500 Attempt at setup – OK, I’ve moved the EP500 out of the corner (at the other end of the entertainment unit), lowered the Vol to 40% (as per the Yami instructions) and managed to calibrate it successfully! However in checking the results of the calibration all my speakers as set at +7 to +10DB and the EP500 is -9.5DB. Trouble is it is now late at night so I can not crank it up to see how it sounds.
Any thoughts welcome!
Jmone,
Nice setup.
I have M60, VP150, SQ8, velodyne DLS-4000 and Yamaha RX2400-V
I did the following which seemed to be best at least for my ears.
set all speakers to small.
I also had sub at -9 dB or so and other speakers at +6 to +7 dB. Thought about recalibrating with sub level turned down but have been too lazy so far, still think I will.
I used the Yamaha speaker level balance but the Yamaha EQ had what I thought was too much sibilance. I set the EQ for each speaker with my ear. I took down the levels for 1kHz about 1 dB, 2.5kH about 2 dB, 6.2kHz about 1 dB. My room is fairly reflecetive.
I think it's best to LFE output to sub.
If you have the VP150 on top of a big TV you may want to lift the back and aim it down toward the listener.
enjoy
Nathan, some of my thoughts: unless the room is square or nearly so, the best location for the sub is generally the corner behind the speakers, so I'd suggest using that location at least initially.
When you first tried the calibration the sub's level control was so high that the 2600 couldn't reduce it and increase the speakers enough to get a balance, so it gave you the W3. Lowering it to about 40% made it, but just barely(the +10dB used up all the adjustment), so I'd suggest to allow a little more adjustment room that you run the calibration again with maybe a 25-30% setting on the sub level so that all the numbers will be a bit closer to 0 after the calibration. For the calibration, set the 2600 to "skip" for speaker size and manually set all speakers "small" with an 80Hz crossover. I'd suggest that you try the "natural" setting for equalization initially(or you could "skip" equalization at first and leave it for later experimentation)which gives more emphasis to equalizing low frequencies and less to highs. This is similar to the equalization setting on the 2400 which I helped a colleague set up which emphasized the lower frequencies and gave us a pleasing result. As always, when you have the time, experiment with various settings.
I've got the Yamaha 2600 too and have been playing with it a couple weeks now. When set to automatic and then comparing the results using a Radio Shack dB meter and an Avia disk I get more than 3 dB differences between the "balance" that Yamaha did. I've done everything manually starting with their automatic settings and trimming them up or down in 0.5 dB steps until things are truely ballanced.
I started with the subwoofer setting it to -6 dB on the Yamaha's volume control and then used the volume control on my subwoofer's amplifier to get to 85 dB using the reference tone from the Avia test disk. The extra 6 dB is held in reserve <g>. I then got the other five speakers to match the subwoofer and then Bob's your uncle I was rocking.
Axiom adviced me to not allow the Yamaha to do an automatic equalize on their speakers.
Edited to add - I just purchased TrueRTA and a matching Beheringer 8000 lab microphone to do a true ring out of the system.
My 3rd attempt is the best so far, which had me use the Auto Setup when the sub was around 35-45% which has the speakers at around +6db and the sub at -6db. The booming, and easy localistion of the Sub is better now better than the 1st attempt (at 100% & in the corner) but I still get an impression that the "felt/tactile vibration" on music can be "late" - if that makes sence.
I've got to say that I'm impressed with the speakers - I'm hearing things on CD's I did not hear before (like breathing in the quite passages on a Hotel California) and the in DVD's (like the shell caseings in Matrix in the Lobby shoot out).
For Music when using "Pure Direct", the M60's sound great - a nice wide and deep 3d soundstage chrisp and clear but I still pick up some silibrance (if that is the word) so I may need to work on the EQ stuff. When in 2ch stereo, the sub kicks in and to me seems to close down the sound stage and make it a bit more muddied. 7ch stereo gives to me gives that I've got it all cranked up and lovin it feeling (at the expense of "purity").
In DVD's (eg Matrix) the Sub certainly adds some punch to sceens like when the elevator doors blow out.
In summary so far:
1) Pretty happy with the M60's / VP150 / QS8
2) Got to suss out the Silibrance to see what can be tweeked
3) Not yet sold that the EP500 elevates the whole system!
Need to play some more!
I have exactly the same speaker set and tried many times to use the auto setup of the Onkyo 703. It never worked well.
I guess, the auto calibration is not sophisticated enough to take care of the room resonances. It senses a resonance, but it only has 5 EQ bands, tries to pull down one band, it distorts the other bands and so on. I always ended up with weird setting bouncing from +7db to -7db and terrible sound.
I ended up doing it all manually, set up the distance, equalize the speakers, and change the sub as it fits your taste. For me it's +4 dB. That's it. Takes a few minutes and sounds much better than anything auto.
I've have the yammy rx-v2500(unused) and am considering the exact speakers that u have. So i am watching this thread with keen interest, your ep500 experience thus far is a bit disconcerting. also I was under the false? impression that the set up mic of the yammy did a good job
bummer on that front as well. hope u can get it sounding exactly as you want and expect it to sound m8.
If I may ask one question to whomever does the yammy push enough "juice" to optimally drive the ep500? not sure on the 2600 but the 2500 pushes 130watt a channel.
I also have the yammy 2500, but always figured I'd be learning to do the manual cal anyway. I hope to get my EP500 within the next couple of months.
The EP500 (and all other powered subwoofers) use an internal amp. They do not use an amp on the receiver, so it is immaterial to the subwoofer how much power the receiver/amp has.
Stoney, as Ken indicated, the receiver doesn't "drive" subs with built-in amplifiers such as the EP-500; it just feeds it a low-level audio signal, but no power from the receiver is used.
On the auto provisions, don't mix up the two entirely different features that are involved. The automatic calibration of speaker levels and distances does a fine job, at least as accurately as could be done by a manual calibration with a separate sound meter. The automatic equalization(if present)is more controversial; some have reported improvements in sound, others have reported that it made it worse.
OK - I tried going back to basics with 0db change for all levels and no equalistion.
1st impression was that the EP500 was rockin' my walls, floors, windows, even the light fittings were shaking and vibrating! While this is all very impressive it is totaly distracting and I'd imagine completly defeats the purpose on integrating a sub into the sound stage. Will be going back to calibration for this one.
2nd impression was with the EQ set flat for all the speakers the silibrance was more pronounced.
Also noticed that the localisation issue with the Sub diminished as a changed the cross over in the Amp from 80 to 60 to 40.
Unfortunatly I am away for work again all week so when I get back I try:
* Sub settings on 35%, Full, Bypass, 0 Degrees
* Yami, 60db Cross Over, Natural EQ, let it do its balance
I also went to Tandy and they had both a Digital and Analogue sound meter (the digital was twice the price) - if I go down this route which one do I want?
Thanks
Nathan
PS a good thing with the Yami is you can save all these settings a switch between at least two of these using the remote.
Forgot to mention that this the room
layout but I have moved the sub to between the TV and the LF speaker. (note: wood floors and RH wall is wood paneling, front and back are windows / doors with curtains)
OK- back for the W'End and played some more(then away for 2 weeks!!!). This morning I have focused on playing music from classic rock (Eagles / Dire Straits / Pink Floyd / U2) to more modern stuff (Infernal / Eminem / Gwen Stefani / Black Eyed Peas).
General Impressions are the speakers are fantastic and I like them the more my ears "break in". In particular they are detailed, balanced and clear especially at loud volumes. I noticed that:
1) Silibrance was notitable only on particular tracks such as Infernal's "Paris to Berlin" and to a lesser extent Eminem's "Lose Yourself" - without another reference system it is hard for me to tell if it is the speakers, recodring, amp etc.
2) EP500 Sub settings are 35%, Full, Bypass, 0 Degrees and the Yami, 60db Cross Over, Natural EQ, Small, with Balance around +7 to 9db for the speakers and -4.5db for the EP500. These settings seem to suit me better (or else I'm getting more and more use to it!). The timing / localisation issues seem to be more pronounced with Doof Doof type beats but changing the cross over to 60hz seems to have work for most tracks. I also suspect that the issue is secondary vibrations from the suspended wood floor and front wall which are large wood framed doors / windows that badly rattle and shake when the EP500 is cranked up.
Yami V2600 Sound Settings: For what it is worth in my auditioning this morning I have found that for me:
1) Pure Direct is fantastic with the Axiom's. You get a wide, deep sound stage with the speakers invisible. I had to get up a few times to check the center speaker was not being used! Even without the sub I found plenty of base. This is my preference if I was to sit in the sweet spot.
2) 2 Channel Stereo - I found very poor with a narrow, shallow sound stage and noticable localisaiton of the speakers. More base though due to the sub.
3) 7 Channel Stereo - I like the feel of this, the front sound stage is more like pure direct but with a more eneloping power, base. My preference as I do other things and move around the room.
4) Music Sound Feilds - Personal preference on these, I did not mind the Pop/Rock settings and really disliked the reveberations in Freiburg. I am unlikely to use any of these DSP options.
More to come on DVDs later!
Nathan
Don't want you to think that we aren't listening (reading).
It sounds like what we all have been through.
Fun too!
DVD Impressions - The set up really shines on the the epics (eg opening battle in Gladiator, LOTR Battle of Hornburg). Unlike some of the music tracks auditioned above, this time it was easy to hear/feel the addition provided by the EP500 when directing LFE to it over just the MT60's on their own (m wife even said she should feel it in her spine!).
I have not changed anything in the setup from the earlier auditon with the music, just poped in the DVD and played with the sound feilds. Some people my be able to tell the difference between the THX, Standard (Enhanced), and Movie (Spectacle) but to me there were very similar (but you get more fancy lights on the Amp in Movie mode!) - they all seem to push the Axiom setup from detailed precise dialogue to a bone crushing sound field with ease (and we have just got back from IMAX - now that is a screen I want at home - but I bet I win on SPL!!)
Thats it for a couple of weeks - away for work and Easter (have a good break for those going away).
Also:
1) If I do get a SPL metre should I get a analogue or digital - does it matter?
2) I see the Yami can put out a test tone, is this OK or do I need a test disk?
Thanks
Nathan.
PS for those interested most of what I played today was from a Media Centre PC - Audio was Lossless WMA, DVD's were stored as VOBS, with a S/PDIF audio connetion pushing PCM/DD (LOTR was 6.1 I noticed).
Forgot to mention a serious flaw - all of a sudden I have an urge to turn everything up (listening to the Peas Pump It "louder")
....mmmm perhaps that should be
from the neighbours
In reply to:
1) If I do get a SPL metre should I get a analogue or digital - does it matter?
2) I see the Yami can put out a test tone, is this OK or do I need a test disk?
1. It doesn't matter. Some prefer the analog; some the digital. I'm among the latter. Either will do the job.
2. The tones in the Yami will suffice. Check the Yami's manual to be sure, but most receiver's indicate their tones should be set to a level of 75 dB.
The discs, however, offer a lot more than just tones to balance your audio system, and are worthwhile if they fit the budget.
In reply to:
do I need a test disk?
No, but as stated above, there is a lot of nice tests to make sure frequency changes from mains to sub are seamless.
I have an RX-V2500 and I prefer the digital.
hi how are you, i i am interested in buying Axiom speakers, and would like to know your experience with them because i am planning to get the same epic60,500 system
i am in melbourne, and where abouts in sydney do you live?
and how dose the 30 day trial thing work in OZ, coz sending them back to canada will cost an arm and leg.
look forward to hear from you
best regards
kashif.
k.yassen@iinet.net.au
Hi Kash,
I'm traveling at the moment so am not getting to play with them as much as I would like. While this thread (and many others) discusses the speakers my experience with Axiom overall has been great:
1) Get a quote from them as the shipping adds a significant bit to the price....but to help offset this I did the 10% FO and 5% systems discount....but then I had to wait 6 weeks! I asked plenty of questions back and forward with "Brent" who was their sales guy - all of which was handled well. As the wait was going to take soooo long they were even happy to split the payment to suite me.
2) The actual shipping OS part of the shipping was incredibly quick - something like 3 days and trackable all the way. The last 20KM from Customs to Me took almost as long!
3) Axiom have a 30-day trial that only needs you to ship back to a Sydney address (not that I think I will need it). There may be a Melb address, again ask it in your e-mail for a quote.
4) I live on the Nth Shore (between Chatswood and Manly) and if you are around (and I'm finally back in town!) I'd be happy to Audition them for you!
All in all the process was good - just the additional $$$ for the shipping made me really consider the value for money aspect but the 30 day return to a local address make the risk acceptable - and so far I'm good!
Thanks
Nathan
It's amazing how much different ones ears are to another
I did the auto thing with my 4600. i hated it. Man I could not stand it. I also hated the pure direct crap. Horrible way too much mid's, no crisp detailed highs and bass was just a small thump.
Spent a lot of time making manual adjustments through the eq, distances and so on. I drove myself nuts with it basically. But I have a sound that is so much better then that ypao nonsense gave me that is for sure. Heck, straight out of the box I hated the sound of the yamaha. Now I love it.
I now have my SPL meter and using the Avia disk have now balanced my speaker levels manually (but have left the EQ settings to what ever the Yami selected). A couple of observations when using the test tones:
1) The vol levels were not toooo different from that the Yami Auto setup did
2) You can really pick the defused nature of the QS8 over the direct radiating front stage.
3) The cross over for LFE from the speakers to the sub is perfect at 80mhz…well I can not pick the transition!
After all this I now know why the sub is causing me grief. I still have to have the EP500 turned way down both in the Amp and at the back of the EP500 to have it “balanced” according to the SPL readings. Unfortunately it is all too obvious that much of the recorded sound levels were the vibrations from my doors, windows, light fittings, wood floors, glassware and even one of the walls felt compelled to join the fun at different frequencies.
I am amazed at how poor my room is at handling LF and now terrified that there is no easy fix!
I’d characterise this room as acoustically “hard” as it has
* a suspended floor boards (eg build on footings),
* front and back “walls” are wooden sash hung windows / doors (with only light weight curtains),
* the right hand wall is that “fake” wood panelling attached directly to the frame,
* half the left hand is opens to the dining room with the other half leading to a hallway that can be closed off by French style doors that also rattle like a banshee, and
* at least the ceiling is of old style heavy plaster / fibre.
Any advice over either moving house of completing gutting the room would be gratefully appreciated!
I’ve even thought I could ditch the whole setup for a Bose Cube or even those US$70 Radio Shack speakers that I saw when getting my SPL meter today. Imagine the bliss, I could go back to the “good old days” where:
1) I didn’t have to re-rip all my music to a lossless format (because let’s face it MP3’s may sound good in your car or portable player but just suck with the Axioms)
2) I was never annoyed (because I never noticed) the dynamic compression on some CD’s (what are they thinking when the master some of these!)
3) I’d never head of sibilance and that some artists really need to be more careful in making their recordings
4) FM was high fidelity
5) My family and friends didn’t think I have some weird sonic compulsion
**** Ignorance was Bliss! ****
Indeed, Nathan; now that you have new speakers and sub, you find that you also need a new house!