Hi all,

I'm looking for a little advice - and I've already bugged Alan once, so I don't want to push my luck

So, I'm moving to NYC, and getting rid of a lot of stuff, including my current set of speakers - JBL 2-ways - titanium tweeter + 8" woofer.

Of course, I'll need to get speakers once I'm there, and why not get something a little better? I like what I've read about axiom, and they are very attractive looking... I'm definitely on a budget, and need something that won't take up much room.

I was originally looking at the M3's and the M22's, but after talking it over with my girlfriend - apparenly I'm not on as much of a budget as I thought - she suggests getting something that we'd be totally satisfied with from the get-go, and never have a burning desire to replace or upgrade.

I'm still considering the M22's, because they seem to be a great value - but now I'm also looking at the M40's. Does anyone out there have experience with both that they would like to share? I'm using it for music only - no home theater at all, and will be driving them with a modestly powered amplifier.

Another thing for people who own M22's - are these going to require stands? It seems like they may, and I don't don't mind building a pair (I built my last set of stands)... but I'd like to know if they are OK w/o them....

Thanks,
Jason

The M22's would be great for music if you're planning to use a subwoofer, but I don't know if the bass response would really be good enough without a sub. I guess it might depend on the type of music you listen to. The M40's will get you the extra bass response, but I believe it's considered to be a slightly more laid-back speaker that doesn't have quite as much clarity in the midrange and highs compared to the M22's.

To get full bass response and midrange/high performance that meets or exceeds the M22's, you'd probably have to step up to the M60's, which are really great speakers (I use them as mains).

So I guess you have to consider whether you like a more laid-back sound or more accurracy, and whether you can live without that extra 20hz of bass extension.

Wow - thanks for a quick reply...

Maybe I should clarify what kind of music I listen to - mainly late 70's and early 80's Punk and New Wave... along with modern stuff that fits that in that genre as well...

So this isn't bass-heavy music at all, but I would like to have some base presence in there... I don't need it to (or want it to) "rumble" ...

The M60's are probably out of my price range, unfortunately...

Having said that... would the base presence of the M22's be enough? I realize that's a pretty darn subjective question...

I really don't want to add a sub, since I wouldn't really be able to afford one that it's the same league as these speakers after buying a pair.... and I wouldn't want to do something like putting bicycle wheels on my Ferrari

It sounds as though the M40s might be a better choice from what you said, but any other advice would be great!

I have a 6.1 Axiom setup with M60's as my mains. I couldn't be happier. Is it possible for you to purchase your system in steps? Could you save and buy each piece, gradually building the system you wanted, and not what you had to settle on? That's my two cent opinion.

NW,I have M22s and measured their in-room bass response with a test-tone CD. The response was quite strong at 50hz and much reduced but still usable at 40hz. In my opinion this is adequate for nearly all music and satisfies me(organ and crash/boom/bang in movies would be another matter).

On the question of placement; no, neither the M22s nor any other "bookshelf" speaker require stands. They do perfectly well directly on the floor, especially if you tilt them back slightly with a wedge so that the tweeter points directly at your listening position. The significant factor in positioning is that the center of the woofer should be at unequal distances from the floor, side-wall and front-wall.

I believe that you'd enjoy the M22s unless you had to have more bass, in which case the M60s would be advisable.

nowave, everyone here is giving you good advice on the choice b/w the m40 and the m22.
There is a bit of a trade off for bass extension with the m40 vs. a better high end clarity with the m22.
I have not heard the m40 but if they are like the m22 or m60s, the bass will be tight and clean with no rumble.
For a picture of the m22s (in a room perspective) take a look at:
m22s in a room perspective
The maple veneer M22s are sitting underneath a pair of QS8s beside the couch. This should give you a good idea of their size and whether you would want stands or not. Personally i would find it more convenient than putting them on the floor.
Also see Tom R, b_man and Duffs setup at:
axiom wall o fame for more M22 pics.

Hey nowave!
I'm in NYC and if you want to listen to a pair of M40's, just let me know.
I've never heard a pair of M22's so I can't comment on them vs. the M40's.
But I can say the M40's are very good speakers. I was originally looking at a pair of M60's, to replace a pair of M3's, but Axiom ran a sale and I ended up getting the M40's instead. The M40's are basically a floorstanding version of the M3's and I love the way the M3's sound, IMHO the M40's sound a little better.
As far as not taking up much room, the M40's have about the same footprint as the M3's on stands.
Good luck!

I have been very happy with my M22 setup and I think considering your musical influences, they would also be good for you. They will require stands. You can buy them directly from Axiom like I did, or from many different aftermarket manufacturers.

Good luck and enjoy your Axiom purchase - whatever speaker it is.

Hi nowave and JohnK,

A general comment regarding placement. Any "bookshelf" speaker will always sound more neutral and at its best on a stand. Floor placement even with the speaker tilted back introduces a major boundary influence. Depending on the room, that might be beneficial in terms of reinforcing the bass but it will inevitably introduce some coloration which may or may not be offensive.

You can always do an experiment and compare the sound of, say, an M22ti on the floor with the other one temporarily supported on a stand or a stool. Do the test in mono and switch back and forth using vocals and wide-range music to check changes in tonal character between the speakers.

Regards,

Alan, what's worked fairly well in practice for me is what I first learned from the research of Roy Allison(June 1974 AES Journal, August 1976 Stereo Review, August 1994 Audio). The point appears to be that it isn't necessarily how close the speaker is to any one room boundary, but rather how the distances to the floor and each wall differ from each other. Allison showed that, for example,a bookshelf speaker with the woofer raised 2 feet from the floor on a stand but also 2 feet from each wall would show a greater coloration from the room boundary effects than that speaker on the floor, but 3 feet from the side wall and 5 feet from the front wall( or vice-versa).

Wow -

Thanks for all the help everyone... this forum really gets results!

I've searched around it a bit more as well - and one other factor I might mention is the amp I'm using. It's an older Harmon Kardon (early 80's) that's rated at about 35w I think. I'm pretty sure this is very conservative, because I can take the volume knob almost completely 100% before I hear any clipping... so either my ears (or speakers) aren't very good, or HK purposefully capped the amplification curve so you don't ruin your stuff... which seems doubtful to me, but I can't really explain it.

It seems like I've read that the M22's are more efficient than the M40's... any thoughts on this? Of course, this amp was really inexpensive (but still sounds quite nice), and replacing it with a higher powered one in the future is always an option...

I suppose right now I'm leaning towards the m22 for space/efficiency reasons...

as always - I love the input - and I've learned a lot from reading these forums!

Hello,

Yes, I'm aware of Roy Allison's research and your advice about keeping the woofer at unequal distances (or distances that aren't multiples) from adjacent surfaces is good. But there's been a lot of interesting research and testing going on about the interaction of rooms and speakers, mostly from Dr. Floyd Toole and a colleague, Sean Olive, since Roy Allison's papers in the '70s.

While Allison's contributions to early speakers from AR in the '60s were invaluable, I've always found his own products disappointing, including a top-of-the-line model I reviewed under rigorous double-blind conditions at the National Research Council in Ottawa. Roy Allison's conclusions notwithstanding, I'll stand behind the results of double-blind listening tests in which I participated. These involved moving speakers to different locations in an IEC room and different locations for the listeners. At times the influence of the room and the listener's position or the speaker's location was far more significant in rankings of the speakers than different brands of speakers being tested.

Regards,