I do most of my music listening in the smallest room of my 3-bedroom house where I have an L-desk with my MacBook pumping out i-tunes.

This room is 8x9x10 with the door permanently open.

I currently have a 2.1 system that consists of two Algonquins facing me, each 4ft. from my ear, at desk level.

I have a DefTech Super Cube 2 positioned in the corner behind my right shoulder, 8" above desk level, about 4' away.

The system is powered by a Nikko Alpha130 through a Rotel stereo control amp RC-970BX.

I am seeking to broaden my sound stage by moving up from my 2-way Axiom Algonquin bookshelves into a 3 or 4-way speaker.

I've looked at B&W, Mirage, Paradigm, SVS, Polk, Dali, and a few other companies speakers and have not found a "more than 2-way" speaker at the right price level for me. (3k max)

I recently stumbled upon the JBL SC2 centers [http://jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=LC2&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=CCS&ser=SLS] and I'm finally thinking this might be my "buy" moment.

(Just search JBL SC2 if my linkis denied.)

However, I've found it wise to expose my purchase thoughts to forum scrutiny prior to hitting the "complete sale" button.

The JBL SC2's are available for under $800 (including shipping) on Amazon.

So my question to you critical Axiom owners/enthusiasts is: do you think I will realize $800 worth of improvement with two of these JBL centers over my Algonquins?

And- is it wise to use two centers as the "2" in a 2.1 set-up?

PS. My Algonquins will not be wasted as I intend to use then as "6&7" to make my 5.1 HT into a 7.1 HT.

PS.S. I'm very pleased with my Algonquins in this set-up but am seeking the ultimate in my price range.

ANY input/critique on this matter will be appreciated!!!

Hi Randall,

I think your basic premise is flawed; I do not believe that moving to a 3- or 4-way speaker will necessarily "broaden the soundstage".

I'd be very surprised if the imaging of ANY horizontally-oriented pair of speakers approaches what you currently enjoy.

I don't think that those JBL's will necessarily sound "better" than the Algonquins.

Since you are listening virtually near-field, I'm not sure that moving to any different pair of speakers is going to make more of a difference than simply playing around with speaker placement.

Sorry to be a buzzkill, but if you're not happy with your existing setup, I don't think the JBL solution you've outlined is going to make "the difference". M22's might be the ticket. Or - if you are looking for a more diffuse sound - you could check into some Mirage Omnisats or perhaps something from Def Tech.

Honestly, I'd buy a pair of superior headphones rather than new speakers for the space you've described.

Very good advice.

Randy, welcome. My thought is that the way to go about broadening the soundstage in your small room doesn't relate to multi-way speakers, but rather to go to a 4.1 setup with very wide dispersion side surround speakers such as the QS4s. From experience with one of my rooms that's barely larger than yours I can verify that the surround effect works well even in small rooms. Place the QS4s as far to the side as possible and maybe a foot or two behind your listening position. Of course this also requires using an HT receiver, but many excellent ones are available at quite low cost. Applying DPLII to 2-channel material allows full use of the surrounds.

Thank you all for your responses!

After re-reading my post I see I incorrectly referred to the JBL's as "SC2's" when I actually meant LC2's. Thank you all for knowing what I meant.

Ttuttle:
No need to apologize for the "buzzkill." Skulking around with a buzz is no way to go thru life.

On "Soundstage:" I sometimes throw around terms a bit loosely- but I figured the LC2's having a Freq. Resp. down to 50Hz compared to 60 for the Algos and would reach down to the sub better.

Also, figured the LC2 having 3/4", 1", 4" and 6" drivers would cover more acoustic ground than just the 1" and 6.5" on the Algos.

I thought these two factors would result in a broader soundstage.
Perhaps I need more education on the concept of and factors effecting "soundstage." Is the X-over the bigger factor?

On the M22's: How would the two 5.25" woofers compare to the single 6.5" on the Algo's. The tweeter appears to be the same driver.

On Speaker Placement: The JBL's come with wall mounts and this was a factor I was considering. Perhaps just mounting the Algo's in a down firing position high on the walls would be a significant improvement. This would put them 6' away instead of 4'.

On "diffuse sound:" What technical spec. (drivers, Freq.Resp., SPL, X-over, enclosure) of the Mirage/DefTech's ensures more diffuse sound? The Mythos One ST's were recently on sale and, while a little tall for my space, I thought they would be a big step up.

On head phones: I understand your point here but I don't like the way head phones make me feel "cut off" from the rest of the world. With speakers, even at a pretty high level, I can still hear knocking on my door or cars honking out front or my cat scratching at the window. I also move around a lot and like that I can still hear my music from pretty much anywhere in my small, one story house.

Finally, I'm a big fan of B.F. quotes. Is that "beer" one really Ben? ...not really surprised ...gotta love Ben!

Thanks again for taking the time to share your expertise with a novice.

I think what folks are saying is that you are too close to your speakers for them to integrate well to give you a convincing soundstage. Changing speakers or speaker configurations won't solve the distance problem.

Listen to Johnk. He's about the smartest guy on HT that I have 'met'. I think he is saying that the difuse sound of qs series speakers placed as far from you as possible will do more to integrate with the sound from your existing speakers to create that sound stage you are looking for.

JohnK: Thank you for your reply!

I am intrigued by the thought of stepping up to 4.1.

I find stereo listening with music to be superior to full surround.

Running stereo through 4.1 is a whole new track I hadn't considered and my mind is racing with the possibilities.

As you said, this would require that I abandon my Nikko and Rotel stereo "engine," which I have no alternate use for, so it's really a complete "smash" on my existing set-up.

I'm not sure if I'm ready for that but thanks because it's another reason to perhaps stand pat until I am ready for a true "difference maker" of a change.

Hey Randall,

After JohnK's post, I was embarrassed that I didn't also suggest adding more speakers to provide a more enveloping environment. It seems like that's what you're after. While I understand your fondness for the Nikko amp (and the purity of 2 channel listening), in that space, going to a surround-capable receiver and a 4.1 setup might be the quickest, cheapest and most effective solution.



I doubt it would make a difference. Your sub is certainly capable of playing up to 60Hz. In addition, without having access to the IN-ROOM response curves, I'd hesitate to place too much emphasis on a relatively small discrepancy like that.

.

I'm just not convinced that More Drivers = Better Sound. There are many purists who swear by 2-way designs (and many expensive speakers that embody that principle). I'd contend that the overall design, including crossover, drivers, enclosure, etc. is much more important than simply the number of transducers.



No idea. Might not make a huge difference to you. It would depend a lot on placement. I believe the tweeter IS the same.



Only one way to find out for sure... I don't know that "high on the wall" is necessarily good, but experimenting with the placement in your listening environment could bring you some revelations.



I'm not sure how you would measure it, but I was talking about the design principle. Both of the companies I mentioned have models that are designed to convey both direct and reflected sound to the listener in some kind of coherent way. I have a pair of the Omnisats at work and I like them very much, but I doubt they are as satisfying as the M3/Algonquins. You were talking about "soundstage", so I just wanted to point out that not all speakers are "a bunch of drivers on the front of a box firing in one direction". Some people still really like the effect of Bose 901's.



I'm with you. You have to balance audio fidelity with ergonomics.



To the best of my knowledge, yes. It takes genius to include beer in a theologically affirming statement.

Have fun. Enjoy the music.

Not that it matters but a GOOD set of open headphones does not cut you off from what's around you. You can still hear the phone ring the dog bark or the wife yelling at you You just have to try a GOOD set to really be able to appreciate just how good they can sound.

WID:

I hate those "earbud" things that came with my ipod.

I purchased a pair of $15 open ear JVC headphones with behind the ear holders that actually stay on when I'm running, jumping rope, or hitting the heavy bag.

I'm very pleased with the purchase; being that they were very cheap, always stay on, and sound pretty good to. However, I don't have much basis for comparison.

The Apple store has a pair of Bang &O's that are like $150. (that seems excessive)

Is there really a significant difference in headphones that justifies this type of cost?

If one was interested in getting a "top of the line" headphone are there some that you have experience with and/or suggest?

I have owned a number of headphone through out the years and the ones that I never did get rid of was the Grado phones I have. My favorite is the Grado 325i. To me their sound signature reminds me the most of my M80s.


A good place to research headphones is HeadFi.

Geez, good job, Rick. Now we're never gonna see him again!

That's always possible Sean .

Randy, I'll touch on a couple of points that you raise in your second post. As to the bass capability of the M22 compared to the Algonquin(which is a weather-resistant version of the M3), the two 5.25" mid-woofers have slightly more area combined than the 6.5" on the Algonquin/M3 and the enclosure is larger and tuned to a lower frequency(as shown in the SoundStage reviews and measurements of the two). Both of these factors would indicate that the M22 has slightly better bass extension, and this would be more widely recognized if the upper bass hump around 100-150Hz in the M3 didn't give an impression of greater bass extension than in fact existed.

The reason that I always use surround speakers(when available)even on 2-channel source material is that the majority of sound in the concert hall(my music listening is almost entirely classical)doesn't reach listeners as direct sound from the front, but rather as reflected ambience from other directions. This material, to various extents, is recorded and has to be mixed into the front channels because there's no place else to put it in 2-channel sources. Processing such as DPLII reads the phase differences in this reflected material, extracts it from the front channels, and steers it to the surrounds where it belongs, making the listening experience a little more realistic.

Well, I wouldn't touch B&Os, but Sennheiser, Grado, and Beyerdynamic are all examples of excellent open air headphone manufacturers that make very high quality products. Good headphones can rival the sound of good speakers.

Everyone else has said it already, but I feel that you'd be taking a large step backwards by moving away from the Algonquins towards the more mainstream speakers that you're looking at. For near field listening especially, smaller two-way monitors are probably the way to go. Some of the best near field speakers I've heard (at least as far as imaging and soundstage) are actually the Axiom Audiobytes. I don't know how Ian did it, but in the near field, they image like my M80s. Obviously, the bass presence isn't there, but other than that, they're fantastic.

JohnK:

Thanks for your comparison of these two speakers.

It seems staying in a 2.1 config, with my room/set-up, I am only going to realize a nominal improvement in overall sound and interaction with my sub- even with a relatively expensive bookshelf speaker.

I'm buying into your logic of the 4.1 and surrounds.

Say I move my Algos into the HT to go from 5.1 to 7.1.

I buy a 110-130 watt/ch, 5.1, AVR.

You would suggest 4 multi-directional surround speakers or a pair of M22's and a pair of QS4/8's?

I just got bit by the classical music "bug" about a year and a half ago and I've added a lot to my collection in the last 6mos.

I like to listen to it pretty loud- but clean & clear is critical to me.

I'm not sure if it's sound logic, from an engineering stand point, but I prefer my system to be twice as powerful as I need so I never have to turn it up past 50%. (well, maybe not twice)

Finally, would one of the new tech AVR's improve overall sound above my older Nikko and Rotel pre that don't have a LFE out for my sub or DPLII?

I had the Algos and SuperCube2 hooked to an Onkyo TX SR 805, before it moved to the HT, and it seemed something was missing after the change in amps to the older Nikko. I wasn't sure the amp was the factor, and the difference wasn't huge, plus I never had the set-ups side by side so I could do AB testing.


Also, let my call out to wid & Kcar to say thanks for the headphone links.

Some of these sites didn't seem to have pricing readily available. What is the price range of these in round figures?

Another reason I want a high quality speaker set-up is when sharing music with friends.

However, I can see the value of a nice pair of headphones and perhaps closed ears wouldn't be so bad considering the "YWF."
(Yelling Wife Factor)

To the headphone "purist" are closed ear preferred over open?

PS. I'm thrilled with the input I've gotten. I fear it could be expensive to learn all this through "lessons learned" from experience.

I'm not interested in having rooms full of last years equipment.

I'm definitely a buy and hold type. I want to buy once and listen for 10-20 years.

I took a chance on the Axioms, buying them after reading many reviews- but I've been very, very pleased.

Thanks to anyone who cares to give input on any of this!

Randall,



Regarding your comments on power, you might find these articles interesting on how amp power requirements can be calculated.

Axiom article on power.


Amplifier power calculator.

Depending on how loud you typically listen, I'm guessing it might get expensive to buy an amp that truly can deliver 2x the power you need since power requirements move logarithmically as opposed to linearly.

Use this as an example (these are rough numbers to show a point, you can do the exact calculations with the calculator if you want to know specifics for your situation):

You sit ~10 ft away and want to listen at 90 dB and also want to have 10 dB of headroom to hit volume peaks in source material. (since +10 dB is generally perceived as 'twice as loud') -> This would require ~55 watts per channel driven.

Now, let's say you want to be able to listen at 95 dB and still have 10 dB of headroom. Now, because of the way the math works, you're up to a requirement of 180 watts per channel to fulfill that desire...

Now, if you actually meant that you want two times the amount of power required to do either one of these scenarios to keep your volume knob at 50%, the math gets pretty crazy.

This reply is going about as deep as I can on the topic as I've learned all I know about power requirements from Axiom's newsletters and the other forum readers, but if you have questions on the power requirements, definitely write them back and one of the experts here can chime in. (I'd ask them also to please do so if I've messed up any of the math here)

Jason

To get an idea of what some of the headphones listed costs look at Headroom. They have a pretty good selection of good phones to browse through.

Given a choice between open and closed phones I prefer the open style. Them seem to have an all around better quality to them then the closed ones I have tried.

As Ken has stated a good set of headphones can certainly rival most good stereo set ups. They can beat quite a few also at a lower all around cost too. Your Rotel pre should have a pretty good headphone out, I know my RB 1070 does.

Randy, yes I would suggest the M22s and QS4s, which are plenty for your room size. The SoundStage review with NRC measurements on the M22, which I mentioned before, is found here and would be worth studying. Note for example that the low point between the two bass peaks(which indicates the enclosure tuning in a ported speaker)in the impedance curve graph is at about 55Hz, which is several Hz lower than the corresponding measurement in their M3 test, as I commented earlier.

Note that if you decide to order, you can get 10% off for ordering from the factory outlet and 5% off for ordering 5 items(which could include some small item such as a wire for the 5th item).

As to the receiver, yes the bass management available in an HT receiver should give you better results in integrating the sub and speakers since the crossover can be set in the receiver at a specific frequency, most likely 80Hz. I'd suggest that you not pay too much attention to power ratings in your small room and with your close listening distance. You'd be using 1 watt or a bit less for a comfortably loud average level and even brief peaks wouldn't be likely to reach the 100 watt level. A very full-featured receiver available now at quite low cost is the Onkyo 606 , which is on sale as a factory refurb from Shop Onkyo for Labor Day. By registering for "Club Onkyo", you're eligible for the 10% off sale plus a $10 credit and free shipping, which reduces the net cost to about $322. A 5% credit(about $16)would also be given which could be applied against a future purchase.

The 606 received an excellent lab test and review in the August HomeTheater Magazine, showing over 100 watts in the standard 2-channel measurement. If you'd like to spend a bit less, the 506 is available for about half that.

Sorry not to help (others already have}, but I was most amused by your "smallest room" phrase: in Oz (and I think in NZ and the UK), the smallest room is the toilet, erhm bathroom. What an image

Regards,
David

Myrison, wid, JohnK:

You've given me good directions to continue my research and I thank you.

coldrick:

If only I could afford to equip. my water closet with this level of equipment. For now, I'll just have to continue to get by with my old Bose stuff in there. (lol)

Thanks all for the great input!!!

Proper room for Bose.