Newbie seeking advice on front towers for dedicated home theater in 16' x 22' room. (Music listening will be done elsewhere.) Has anyone compared the above speakers?
Also, can anyone make sense out of surround sound technology for me? I've always been a "more is better" kind of guy, but is there anything to be gained from a 7.1 configuration compared to a 5.1 configuration for watching movies in a 16' x 22' room? And if I go with a 5.1 system, is it worth the extra money to get a 7.1 receiver in the event I decide to add a couple of speakers?
Thanks a lot--
theaterdoc
Hi theaterdoc,
It's very room dependent, but in a 16 x 22 ft. room, adding the extra center rear speakers might deliver what I've come to term a "modest enhancement." Usually the extra channels are more effective in much larger rooms where they provide more even surround coverage. With QS4s or QS8s in your room, you may find (as I do) the sense of envelopment with the classic 5.1-channel setup, totally convincing.
Since 6.1 and 7.1 receivers aren't all that expensive these days, why not get one? And the 6.1 and 7.1 are not discrete formats (the center rear is a derived matrixed channel, except for dts for music). Still, some users report big differences in their installations. Like so much of multi-channel setup, it's very room-dependent.
By the way, Klipsch tends to build aggressive, fatiguing horn-loaded speakers (not neutral).
Regards,
Hi, Alan--
Thanks so much for your prompt reply. How do you guys keep up with all these posts, especially from complete idiots like me? (OK, I'm a brain surgeon--but this surround sound stuff is much more complicated than brain surgery.) I'm not even an Axiom customer yet, and I'm already incredibly impressed with the personal attention I've received from your company.
At any rate, the necessary remodeling for my future home theater remains to be done, but it looks as if my system will consist of a pair of M80s (any relation to the wonderful firewworks I played with as a kid?) and a VP150 up front, QS8 surrounds side and rear, and an EP350 sub. What would you think about Onkyo's 100-watt TX-SR800 (with THX), for about $1000, vs the Denon 110-watt AVR-3803 (no THX), at about $1200? Sounds like a no-brainer, so to speak--any other suggestions in the $1000-$1500 (or less) range?
Again, I very much appreciate the opportunity to pick the brain (pardon the expression) of someone with what I must assume is an enormous amount of listening experience.
Best regards,
theaterdoc
Onkyo's rated power is much lower than what is stated. Even though it is specified that the Onkyo is 100W with all channels running it mostlikely is running about 70W. I find this for all Onkyo or Onkyo Integra models. The Denon, Yamaha, NAD and Rotel actually run in the range they state. So if they say they are 100W per channel then it is 100W per channel or close to it. Try Rotel RSX1055, NAD 762.
If you plan to spend as much on the M80... give a listen to Monitor Audio Silver S8, Paradigm Reference 100, PMC TB2, Quad 22L, Warfedale Pacific Evolution Evo 400
Hi, Saturn--
Thanks--appreciate the suggestions.
theaterdoc
Hi again--
The Rotel receiver you suggested does not have THX--is this not a feature worth getting?
theaterdoc
theaterdoc,
Brain physiology and home theatre hookups. In essence they are both electrical devices wired in many ways.
In light of that thought, you should be more qualified in home theatre than anyone here no?
Both the Onkyo and the Denon brands are good choices for a home theatre integrated receiver. They tend to incorporate the most common requirements for playback of today's dvds (Dolby Digital EX, DTS, multiple speaker hookups, etc.) while providing a wide range of prices and options for any level of consumer.
I personally have an Onkyo DS797 (last year's model), and could not be happier with its performance.
That being said, i do not have the M80s, i have M60s (a 4 ohm speaker vs. the M60- an 8 ohm speaker).
There has been a fair bit of debate over the power handling capabilities of several common receivers. Many of them do not carry specifications from the parent company on supporting 4 ohm speakers. However, some receivers will still successfully and easily power speakers with a low impedance. Sushi recently bought an expensive Pioneer receiver which seems to be working out just fine and i have used my Onkyo DS797 with 4 ohm speakers without any issues. Others have reported problems in this regard albeit with different models (the Onkyo DS787 comes to mind) or brands (some Harmon Kardons offhand) of receivers. You will want to check out the ability of these receivers to power a 4 ohm speaker properly before putting down any cash.
Be sure that you get a solid answer from someone who has already tried the M80s with the two receivers you are interested in before you commit to your purchase unless the company specifically gives you a specification for running speakers under 8 ohms. The last thing you want to have is a new receiver that starts billowing smoke or constantly shuts itself off because the M80s are too much for the unit. Warranties often do not cover such 'abuse'.
As for the THX thing, again, people debate it. THX certification (especially the Ultra categories) do go through some rigorous tests set forth by the THX specifications. However, if a unit is not THX certified, it certainly does not mean it's not up to the task of performing. Many expensive units/companies do not even bother with such certifications because their components sell without it (usually due to quality but often also due to reputation).
Your setup selection otherwise looks great. Personally i'm not 100% sold on the performance of my EP350 but certainly the system as a whole is superb for home theatre while surprisingly revealing for music and incredibly accurate for its cost.
In reply to:
By the way, Klipsch tends to build aggressive, fatiguing horn-loaded speakers (not neutral).
Yeah, I agree with Alan on this one. The Klipsch sounds to me like a professional PA system speaker. The sound is peculiarly colored, which I understand Klipsch fans really love. In a sense, the Klipsch and the Axioms represent two extremes -- "colored" (good or bad) versus "accurate."
I strongly suggest you listen to them at fairly loud volume for at least 30 minutes before deciding whether you like the Klipsch sound or not. They are ubiquitously displayed in many AV chain stores, so it should not be difficult to hear them.
chess:
In my earlier response about the Onkyo's power handling I failed to mention that it was not an issue. I used to have the Onkyo Integra DTR 5.1 which handled marvelously. I passed it over to my good brother couple of months ago. I enjoyed it for a couple of years and it spanked out great sound. I only upgraded so that I could setup a 7.1 HT.
theaterdoc:
In respect to THX.. Semi_On had a good explanations in an earlier thread months ago about THX and other stuff like DTS, DD and SACD.....
I have been using Denon 3803 and Axiom's Epic 80 since November and I am happy with it. I watch 2 or 3 movies consecutively on week ends or listen to 2 hours of music continuously and the receiver has no problem powering the 4 ohm speakers. It gets warm but not hot and I have not experienced the circuit protection failure that some people talk about with other receivers.
I prefer M80 over Klipsch for the same reason Alan and Sushi mentioned.
Hi, Sushi--
I don't think I ever thanked you for your thoughtful comments--much appreciated!
theaterdoc
Hi, Pinoy--
Thanks for the feedback. Just curious--did you consider the lack of THX certification when you got your Denon receiver?
theaterdoc
Hi, Chesseroo--
Hmmm.......good analogy. So why do I feel so un-qualified? I guess learning the intricacies of home theater is no different from learning anything else: there's a curve, and (after about a week and a half) I'm still at the beginning of the curve!
Anyway, I appreciate your detailed response, and I was particularly interested in your comments about THX. Are the benefits more hype than reality? (Of course, as with all such matters, I suppose the answer depends largely upon one's ears--and what's between them!)
Thanks again--I'm very new to the "Axiom community," as it were, but you guys seem like a great bunch of people. And I think that has to say something about the quality of the company and its products.
Best,
theaterdoc
In reply to:
Anyway, I appreciate your detailed response, and I was particularly interested in your comments about THX. Are the benefits more hype than reality?
Hi Doc,
The reality is, the manufacturers have to pay a hefty loyalty to get the THX certificates with the glorious logo on the faceplate. So, the entire scheme is driven by the usual corporate economic/political/marketing motivations. Among the non-exotic-priced receivers brands, for example, Yamaha refuses to go with the THX and continues to design and make their own proprietary digital signal processor (DSP) chips for surround processing, which seem to enjoy laudatory reviews from critics and owners alike (incidentally, I do not intend to recommend for or against Yamaha). And of course, the Yamaha receivers, like most others today, will handle every digital surround format under the sun without a problem. My own Pioneer 45TX receiver happens to be THX-Select certified, but that was certainly not a factor in my purchase decision.
Here is a thread on a huge discussion of THX certification that might help you to resolve some questions and opinions:
axiom poster on thx certs
Hi, Sushi--
Very interesting. I guess there's just no escaping politics, even when buying home theater components.........
theaterdoc
Hi, Chess--
You're amazing--I had just found that thread and was reading my way through it when your latest post "dinged" in my e-mail inbox!
Thanks again for the help. These message boards are an incredible source of information and support.
theaterdoc
I am curious, Saturn, how you determined that Onkyo receivers and I suppose amps output less than their rated power outputs. Clearly, that would be false advertising, and since I own a 797 and an M282 amp I would be pretty upset if what you're saying is true.
I have or had Harmon Kardons AVR65 (65x5), 525 (70wpcx5), Technics SADX940 (100wpcx5)), Sony STRDB1070 (100wpcx6), as well as the Onkyo 797 (100x6) and from my experience I'd say the Onkyo puts out as much more power than the others listed as you'd expect from its rating.
I've always been curious as to how someone would test the output of a multichannel receiver to determine whether it meets its specs. I'd be curious as to what you came up with Saturn.
Sometimes (don't qoute me on this)some companies rate the output based on 2 channels driven rather than all channels driven. Like for instance my Rotel is rated at 100w x 5 and it is. But for 2 channel stereo my system pushes about 128W x 2. Some companies would actually say my system pushes 128W per channel. But I know at least for Rotel, Denon and NAD and most high end separates they for sure tend to be on the conservative side. What devices they use to measure this . I don't know exactly what they are but here are some articles using some sort of device to measure this. ie. HCC measured output at onset of clipping HCC Fidelity Firewall
These are some articles that actually have some sort of devices to measure rated output vs real continous output on all channels which happen to be the model under yours.
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/Amplifiers/Onkyo/OnkyoTX-DS787.shtml
Actually all receiver reviews on
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/index.html test for rated vs real continous power all channels
Yes, I did. I started with THX certification to be a must for my speakers and receiver. In the final analysis, trust your ears instead of THX ratings. Please read my comments in the link posted by Chesseroo.
Some manufacturers will rate the power at only one frequency, I believe 1 kHz, instead of the full range of 20Hz to 20kHz. The 1kHz rating might be 100 watts which sounds better than the full range rating of 90 watts. Even the same company, like Yamaha, will sell two different product lines, which are actually the exact same unit under different names. The mass market product line will use the 1kHz rating with the higher power rating (looks good to the uneducated buyer) and then use the full range rating in the higher end line. The specs will usually state how the power level was determined, so you can usually tell by checking them out. Such as "100 watts at 1kHz" or 90 watts 20Hz to 20kHz or using teams such as "full spectrum" or something like that.
It has been quite a while since I have looked at this kind of info, so I am basing it on a very fuzzy memory, so if I mistated any of this, please feel free to correct or clarify it.
The M80's are a great choice, I have them and love them. As far as recievers, I have the Onkyo NR900 and returned it due to the lack of power. I now have the Rotel RSP1066 and the RMB1075 5 chanel amp. It blows the Onkyo away for only a little more money. I can't believe the difference. The Onkyo was THX select and the Rotel is not. I think that THX is a good thing, but only on the upper certs, Ultra and Ultra2. I would like the Rotel to be THX, but it definitly isn't missing anything.
Rick