I would greatly appreciate comments and advice on this issue:

Requirement: two "small" bookshelf speakers for classical music (not movies), no subwoofer

Price: Around $300 or less

I was about to purchase a pair of Axiom M3 V2 speakers. Then I heard about Energy speakers and a closeout on their "C" series (C-200 specifically, $150 at Audioadvisor), and the RC-10 ($300 at Vann's).

Is the M3 really much better for classical music than the Energy C-200? Or is it too bright? Please note I am not planning to use a subwoofer. Should I consider other small speakers?

Thanks very much

Paul

Hey Paul,

Welcome! First of all the m3's, or any of the Axiom lineup for that matter, should be defined as bright. They are detailed and "true" to the original recording. They may bring out some flaws in "poorly" engineered CD's, but will sound outstanding on good quality cd's. To me, that is a good thing.

Can't help on the Energy's, have never heard them. I think if you do a search for Energy in the subject line, you will get old posts on this matter.

JohnK will be along later this evening, he is our resident classical master. I do own some classical music on his recommendation, I have the m80's.

Are you planning on ordering from the factory outlet, that will save you an additional 10% on your purchase? The m3's have great bass response, where the m22's might give you a little more detail, but that would be around $400 from the outlet.

It's amazing the difference in mental pictures with just the use of a small 'a', the power is astounding!

Thanks for your reply!

So I guess I'm wondering if bright speakers such as the M3 will result in fatigue over time, or they would be just fine.

I was going to buy from the main store, not the outlet (are outlet units "lightly used" or just slightly blemished?). The main limitation is the size of the speakers; I want something on the smaller side, hence no M22.

Hi Paul,

Since much of my listening in recent decades has concentrated around classical, opera, some jazz and large choral works, I think you'd be very satisfied with the M3 v2's reproduction of strings, horns and solo violin.

The Energy models tend to be what I call a bit "zippy", too agressive on strings and violin. The latter is especially critical for me as I studied the instrument for 15 years. The only Energy speakers I have heard that have excellent balance on strings are the rather expensive Energy Veritas models--large floorstanding systems.

In the Axiom line, the M3v2 or M50v2 would be ideal for your musical preferences. They are never agressive on strings and have very pleasing musical balance. With no subwoofer, the M3 has more apparent bass output than the M2 or M22 bookshelf models.

Regards,
Alan

Once again, they're not "bright." The M3s are slightly more forgiving of bad source material than the rest of the line, but they're very accurate. We rarely hear of fatigue problems around here, but certainly you should try them out for yourself--either through auditioning with someone on the boards (see the Hearing Things forum) or with the 30 day return policy.

The outlet are slightly blemished, but absolutely new speakers. Sometimes, we suspect, they are not blemished at all, but are needed to fulfill an outlet order...

Paul, what I was trying to say is that they are not bright, sometimes my fast typing misses a few letters, I meant to type shouldn't be described as bright.

Factory outlet speakers range from slightly “blemished to perfect condition. I have 10 factory outlet speakers an all arrived in perfect condition. Some people have found minor cosmetic issues but it is quite common to find none. I have said many times that I believe if Axiom does not have any B-stock available in the timeframe listed on the factory outlet order page they will ship A-stock to meet or even beat the deadline. No one from Axiom has ever refuted this.

To me the only drawback to ordering factory outlet is a longer wait. However, each time I ordered the listed wait time was 4 weeks but my speakers shipped in 2.

Cheers,
Dean

Ya think?

Shouldn't you be out flying around somewhere?

The M3 will be a very nice speaker. If I were you, I would seriously consider a small sub to complement such a small bookshelf. You don't need a huge beast, just something that will extend the bottom end down to between 30 and 40Hz.

I have listened to the M2's I use as a center and they sound great except the bottom end. This is in comparison to the M80 which has a wonderful bottom end. The M3 will have a little more apparent bass, but still...

Something like the EP125 would be perfect. If thats too big, maybe you can find a smaller sealed sub somewhere.

Day off today (yay!) and besides who else is gonna keep you straight?

Paul, give the M3's a shot. I think you will be impressed. They are great little speakers for the money.

Paula! Anyway, I second the M3 recommendation.

I think Paul should try the M3s also

I have not heard the RC10, but a friend of mine just picked up a C-200 system w/Onkyo Rx. I can honestly say that I did not particularly like them for music, although they did sound good on movies and games (and he's ecstatic with the upgrade from crappy HTiB). They seemed kind of harsh and lacked any 'fullness' (I played a bit of Feist for vocals and Vivaldi for music). Mind you it wasn't really set up well (awkward placement as it was a new system in a new house with boxes and furniture everywhere) but that should mainly affect imaging (which was unsurprisingly non-existent) and the like.

My M3s in a 2.0 setup, on the other hand, do sound very good with music, including classical (listening to Holst now). The M80s are better, but I'm not gonna be giving up my M3s any time soon.

All my speakers are FO and I have noticed maybe two blemishes that may or may not have come from the factory, and I really had to search hard.

Paul, welcome. My own listening is almost entirely classical and I've been enjoying great music through my M22s for over seven years now. I wonder why you place so much emphasis on "small"? For example, the M22s are about 6-7" higher than many "bookshelf" speakers, but are also narrower. Unless you have a strictly defined vertical space available, my suggestion is the M22s. The bass they provide is at least as extended as the M3s(enclosure tuning is actually a few Hz lower on the M22), but a boost in the upper bass around 100-150Hz on the M3 gives an impression of "fuller" bass, although it isn't quite as accurate.

The in-room response of my M22s gives usable bass down to about 40Hz, which is adequate for most classical music. However, if you listen to pipe organ or other very low frequency content no bookshelf speaker is going to handle that very well. I use the EP500 sub because of this. Although you've also emphasized no sub, if the budget would permit this should be considered in the future.

Many thanks to everybody for their comments. John, the choice of a small speaker is purely because of aesthetics; I don't like the speakers to stand out in the family room where they will be housed.

Will a Yamaha receiver from some years ago (I think I have one of the HTR-5000 series, maybe the 5560 or 5590) be good enough?

What other speakers in the same price range (or lower?) would be (may be) comparable to the M3s?

Paula,

Yes the Yamaha receiver you own will be just fine. I agree with the other and think the M3's would be a great choice for you. I would also recommend the Ascend Acoustics CMB-170 as an alternative product to the Axioms. They offer excellent sound quality but they are not the prettiest looking speaker .

Good luck in your speaker journey and let us know what you end up with.

Cheers!

Thank you again. I will look at the CBM-170 too. Other suggestions are most welcome as well. To be honest with you I'm tempted to get the Axioms at this point just because you guys have been so supportive and patient with my questions. This forum is incredible!

Now that I look at my setup, the M22s don't look too big either. But the price is high. I started thinking I'd get the M2 V2, then this became M3 V2, and now ...???

If you think we are supportive wait until you ever deal with Axioms customer service . One of the best companies around to do business with in my opinion.

I've always wanted to give a listen to the Behringer 2030p studio monitors.

I can't use the Behringers - not pretty at all (no grill).

*snerk* John got it wrong...

Yes but the 3rd party measurements for this speaker are outstanding.

I think I have figured out how you can compare 2 sets of speakers in your home with very little risk/cost. You can order the Axiom M3 and the Aperion 4B or 5B and do a comparison. Both have 30 day trials and Aperion has free return shipping within the 30 day trial. To return the M3's I believe it would cost between $10-$20.

Here is a recent review of the Axiom M2 and Aperion 5B. The reviewer thought the M2 was the most netural and offered the best value. This review included each set of speakers used with a subwoofer. Without a sub you might find the M3's the most satisfying.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=258892#Post258892

What would be the differences between the M2 V2 and the M3 V2 for classical music with no subwoofer?

Also looking at the Ascend CBM-170 ...

Hi Paula,

I am an M3 owner for a little under a month, but have not listened to any of the other speakers you mention. I also don't listen to too much classical music, but thought that maybe something here may help out.

Up until two days ago, I had no subwoofer and was impressed with the low range extension of these relatively small speakers. If I had no option to get a sub, I would have been satisfied with the way the M3's performed with the genres of music I listen to regularly (Jazz, Hawaiian, R&B, Classic Hip-Hop, Heavy Metal).

In room response goes down to 40hz for me. Good enough to get a decent sense of the bass in a jazz band if that is analogous to anything in classical music.

Paula, if you compare the specs of the M2 and M3, you will see that the main difference is in the woofer size and the crossover. The graphs show that the M2 has a flatter response where the M3 has a bit of a boost lower down, and also goes a little deeper than the M2(about 10hz). I've not heard either of these speakers but if it's anything like the rest of the Axiom lineup, their goal is for uncoloured and detailed music reproduction. I'm sure you'd be happy with either(I'd probably lean towards the M3 esp if your not using a sub).

Paula,

To put some perspective on how the M3's relate to classical music, the bottom string on a double bass is 41 Hz (or on an acoustic or electric bass used in jazz/pop/rock). The M3s do a very nice job of reproducing that. In double-blind tests I've described the M3's bass as "quite good". The M2s I've rated "bass is decent but I want more--maybe a sub".

The bottom note on a grand piano is at 28 Hz. Those aren't played very often, but you will find them in some of Debussy and Ravel's piano pieces. (There is a special Bosendorfer grand, with an extra 8 keys, which go as low as 16 Hz, again seldom used). Even if the M3 doesn't go to 28 Hz, the higher harmonics will give you the impression that you are hearing a note that low.

Regards,
Alan

Interesting... I wonder if my electronic piano is actually reproducing that 28Hz note through its speakers, or if it's just the harmonics.

Paula,

Do you ever plan on getting a subwoofer, center channel and surrounds in the future to go with your mains?

I doubt it very much. Don't really like too many speakers all over the place and for classical music my preference is to do well with just 2 speakers.

Paul

Interesting comments on the M3 vs. CBM-170SE:

http://boards.ign.com/dvd_home_theater_board/b5043/125881504/r126027972/

You're gonna fit right in.

I think he should get an EP400, small and explosive.

Ken,

If it's a full 88-key keyboard, it depends on how big or good the speakers are in the electronic piano. There might be some output at 28 Hz but I doubt it's audible. Sometimes with some of these very low frequencies from instruments, when you look at the spectrum analysis of the fundamental and harmonics, the actual fundamental is often at a much lower level than the harmonics. That's true of the largest pipe on some pipe organs. Although the fundamental is at 16 Hz, it's at a low level. The 2nd harmonic at 32 Hz is much louder, so that's what we hear even if the speaker doesn't begin to reproduce the 16-Hz fundamental tone. The latter is called "the phantom fundamental".

Alan

Awww, man! The "Phantom Fundamental" would have been an awesome screen name!

Or a good name for a band.

Just remember his own preference might not be your preference. There are many good quality bookshelf speakers out there and until you get to hear them in your own environment with your ears, you will never really know which you like better. I would second the idea of ordering up both speakers listen to both and send back the ones you like the least, at most it will cost you about an extra $20 to return the Axioms should you not choose them and as was mentioned Ascend offeres free return shipping.

Perhaps Ascend has changed their policy or you were thinking of Aperion. Neither shipping from nor back to Ascend is included in the MSRP. They list a $20 flat rate for this speaker shipped to you and say the following in their return policy:

ASCEND 30-DAY GUARANTEE...



I’m guessing it will be close to the same price, however, they also say this:



Axiom includes shipping to the customer as part of the MSRP. And estimates the return shipping for 2 bookshelf speakers at 30USD.

Also Axiom says this:

The Axiom In-Home Trial 30 day...




P.S. I stand corrected if Ascend is offering some sort of shipping special I missed on their site when I checked out the links from that forum last night.

I was in fact thinking of Aperion, nice catch.

The idea of an in-home trial is great (by Axiom, Ascend, others), but I really would prefer not to send any speakers back and just buy and use them.

BTW I wrote to Ascend about my question in this thread two days ago, and no reply yet. I wrote to Axiom before that and Brent replied within 24 hours, recommending the M3 over the M2.

Paul

Bad name for a musical, though.

IMO no one bookshelf speaker in your price range from any good manufacturer is going to bomb or totally outclass the competition. It’s the fine details that will distinguish them and no one but you can decide what those are. Also your room itself will play a big roll I how you perceive these speakers performance.

Your real decision IMO is whether you want a neutral speaker like the M2 or CBM-170SE or something with a mid bass hump like the M3 and many others.

If you will be switching your music listening between these speakers and another system that extends lower I think a speaker with the mid bass hump it the way to go otherwise you will really notice the missing bass. If however, this is the only system you plan on listening to music on or your other system(s) don’t extend lower then I think you would not notice the missing bass as much and the more neutral speakers will sound better overall. Additionally, if you are very familiar with the music you plan on listening to you will also notice the missing bass more.

I really think your best bet is to pick one of each style and compare them directly. Check out any local shops to see if they have speakers in both styles (with and without a mid bass hump) and see which you prefer.

Listening to any one of the speakers mentioned on their own, IMO, would not allow for the subtlties to be exposed thus making your dilemma a moot point. I am quite sure you would be happy with any of the speakers that have been suggested.

As you have pointed out Axiom customer service is the best in the business as far as I can tell, another good reason to go with Axiom.

Another idea would be to order the M2's, as they are similar in characteristics to the ascend's, and if they are not to your liking upgrade to the M3's, you would only pay for the price difference - no shipping charges applied when upgrading during the 30 day trial. If you think the M3's are still not for you and found the M2s closer to your liking but still not quite right, you could again upgrade to the M22 as the final test of the bookshelf idea, after that you would then have to move to floorstanders, which for 2 channel listening is the only way to go, IMO.