I like the look of the M22 stand, as well as how it hides the cables. But my fireplace's stone base juts out well beyond the fireplace itself and would get in the way. Is there another brand of stand that will properly hold the M22s with a narrower footprint?
I'll get one. But regardless of the visual, I'm mostly just curious about whether there's a stand with roughly the same width on the bottom as the speaker. Or at least more rectangular. (But if anyone wants to give me interior design ideas for what to do with the gap between kitchen and fireplace, I can get a whole bunch of photos!)
I actually have room for floor standing speakers. It'd just end up looking cramped next to a chair in the corner. There'd be WAF issues for sure, plus a pair of M80s would probably just be overkill for this room anyway. A narrower stand would elevate the speaker past the chair without getting near the base of the fireplace or the leg of the chair. I worry that that wouldn't be possible with the Axiom stands and that triangular base.
There's always wall mount possibilities, perhaps. Maybe to the sides of the fireplace where there may be wood. (Hence the need for photos). Going with narrow stands you also run the risk of stands that are easy to topple over.
Maybe something like
this?
Dave, you may want to check out
RacksandStands.com and
StandsandMounts.com for wide selections.
Amazing that I never knew about those sites. Thanks.
Something like
this would be great. Though it may be just a touch wider than the M22, I guess.
Oh, I found a photo from when I first moved in. I tore that stupid conduit off. The other side, which is only a few inches wider than the window, is the side with more of a space crunch.
If there was a way to wall mount them and still have plenty of clearance from the wall without looking bad behind it, I'd consider that. I worry that the mounts would be too visible though. Of course, a bit of wire will be visible leading into the stand too, which is not ideal.
Anyway, the stone at the very bottom of this pic is 3.5 inches. The front edge of it is 23" from the back wall, and the framed wall around the fireplace is 13" out (with a stud in that corner, obviously). I'm still unsure of what I'll put in the space to the left of a speaker on this wall. Perhaps a 48" wide fish tank. That's give it sort of a 2/3 and 1/3 split of the space and not make it odd that nothing's centered under the window. Especially if I put something like a plant on top of it on the left. Who knows. Anyone wanna play interior designer?
Not shown is that above the fireplace there's a cutout that holds a 50" plasma (which I hate - I want to fill it in and mount something larger). The fireplace and the space above the mantel basically make it impossible to position a center channel. So going with M2s up above the window remains a possibility, though it's not my preference. (I had a thread about that a few weeks ago back when I thought on-walls would be my only option.)
I think if i were you. i would get an AV rack, single. for the area next to the kitchen to fill in that space a little bit.
this is the brand i personally like, Awesome build quality. and not crazy expensive.. you and the wife could sit down and customize one to the way both of you though was acceptable.
http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/syn/singles.jspi think for the stands, either wall mount like cat said... or i would say get some steel ones custom made. use 1/4" steel and then use 1 1/4" in or so steel rod to connect the base to the stand. If you google welders, im sure you can find someone that can weld some up for you relatively cheep, or you could go to harbor freight, and get a MIG welder for like 100$ ect and do it your self, then you would have a welding machine for any other projects.. i kind of waiting for an excuse to buy a welding machine, this would make a perfect excuse for me. then you just need a saw, which can be had at harbor freight also for pretty cheep.
I like this idea, because you can make what you want, and not be restricted by the design of someone else. I also like DIY projects.... and with 1/4' steel, your stands will be WAY stronger/heavier than ANYTHING you buy.....
I built some shelves for the speakers in my room, just got some metal L braces, and a blowtorch, and changed the angle from 90- 60, so they are pointing down towards me, i was limited to 60 as one of them is right above my door, and the end of the shelf is a few mm from the top of the door.
if you want i can take a few pic for you. i think that my shelfs cost me a total of 20$ and they can hold about 100lb each, and they are 12X12ish
anyhow there's my .02$
Dakkon, that's very similar to the rack that the previous owners had in that location. The wires are actually intended to be on the other side, where multi room speakers are sourced. I of course relocated the entire house's AV components to a downstairs closet. So I don't have any need for a rack up here.
I'm a DIY type (fished all the wires myself, for instance) but I have no confidence whatsoever in my ability to design or weld something. Stands are cheap enough that I'd buy one.
I was thinking that shelves mounted to the side wall would get the speakers positioned well. But I don't think there's any way to do that without it looking goofy. Like the wall has ears or something.
I did some experimenting today.
First I bought a new rug, which I think fits the room perfectly, and it was damn near free. I'll never really get the idea of spending thousands on rugs. Then again, I have dogs and it's not wise to waste money on something they'll just shed and spit up on anyway.
Then I fished a wire up and over the fireplace and plugged in the Polks:
Then I grabbed the canopy from the 90 gallon tank I have downstairs, which is 4 feet wide, to get an idea for how much space it'd occupy on that wall (this photo has no flash, since it was making the color look weird. Real color of this place and cabinets can be seen in that post up above). It leaves plenty of space for a speaker (and the vent), but would probably not be the greatest influence on the sound.
Anyway, the front center of the Polks are 24" from the back wall and I'm going to be honest: They sounded pretty darn good in this alignment on the first try. The front of the couch is 8' away from them and the imaging is good despite the fireplace being between them. Downstairs I had them 36" from the wall. For something temporary, I'm happy. Now I can sit at my "desk" (the kitchen table) and not crank the volume of the ceiling speakers in the dining room.
This arrangement did bring to mind another question: At this distance (from the wall), are there any Axioms that stand out as clearly better (or worse) choices for me?
Obviously I'm trying to rationalize getting M80s. But they're much deeper than these Polks (which are 13w x 8d x 43h), which would place them very close to the wall in back.
The next question is what center to get and where I should put it. The previous owner had those stupid Bose cubes so they sat easily on the mantel. The bottom of the TV is 7" from there though so that limits me. I don't think a low center on a stand in front of the fireplace will pass WAF, and I think putting one up above the TV will look stupid unless I go with M2s up top too, which will then suck for music.
I'm leaning very heavily towards the HG burled walnut finish for whatever I get, though, based on
this photo and setup I saw, plus the fact that we're going to have a table nearby with that same wood. The coffee table in the photos isn't going to be around much longer so the lighter wood won't clash. Or would that be too different from the kitchen?
Yes, I realize I've now departed entirely from the subject of my own thread. It should be obvious by now that I have been spending WAY too much time obsessing about getting this room just right. (And to think... there are still 4 other rooms, including the reference theater, to obsess about after this one!) I welcome and appreciate any and all input any of you might have.
Hi Daveb,
Nice dogs (what's he licking on that table?), nice rug.
I don't specifically know that Polk speaker you're using, but if I were to recklessly generalize--based on years of listening tests to American, Canadian, British and European speakers as an audio magazine editor--Polks are/were wildly variable and inconsistent in sound quality. Some were decent, others very colored and unnatural.
The main difference you'd hear if you replaced the Polks with Axiom M60v3's is more neutral, transparent and natural sounding instruments, with greater soundstage spread and depth (depending on the recording). With M80v3s, you'd get considerably greater bass extension and output and the ability, given sufficient amplifier power, to play cleanly at extremely loud levels. The level of transparency and neutrality of the new M80s vs the M60s would be similar, according to my blind listening comparisons.
By the way, with the speakers pulled out a bit, the fireplace would not affect the imaging or soundstage at all. It's only adjacent surfaces/shelving that will cause interference effects.
The center is a problem. I'll think about it; perhaps others here will have some ideas. An M2 center will work fine for music but obviously it won't have the same loud playback capability as a larger center channel speaker.
Regards,
Alan
Alan, i would guess the dog is drinking up some spilled beer..
Dave, i vote you just take out the fireplace.
i feel for you, the people who though it would be a great idea to put the plasma above the fireplace were not into HT stuff at all. you said the bottom of the TV is 7" from the mantel, how far is the bottom of the screen from the mantel? it looks like there is 1-3" of bevel around the bottom of the plasma, so that would give you almost 10", you didn't say how deep the mantel is. the VP-150 is only 7.5" high but is also 7.5" deep.
i would try to push the polks out a little bit farther from the tv, i think you will get better imaging that way.
I believe Alan has said before that the M80's only need to be an inch or 2 from the wall for effective porting.
Indeed it was beer on the table.
[Let the record show that I was drinking crappy domestic beer only because it was there to serve others. You should infer nothing about my taste in speakers or music from that choice.]
Anyway, Alan, those are RT1000p that I bought in college. I have had rooms in which they sounded amazing and rooms in which they sound bad. Oddly, it seems that they have sounded their best in places like this that are wider than they are long and/or open on one end. I have owned them for 13 years and have yet to determine any pattern whatsoever in their placement other than that they seem to work best when toed in to point slightly behind the listening position. Downstairs in a 12x14 room they sounded good at higher volumes than other rooms but the high end got fatiguing rather quickly (there's another explanation for that though - the room was empty except for an office chair and a fish tank. It was like sitting in a tin can). I will miss these speakers only because of an emotional attachment, much like one might look back fondly on his first honda civic. Though to be quite honest, when at their best they sounded far better than other speakers I heard at even 2-3 times their price (of course, perhaps those speakers were poorly set up).
Anyway, with regards to their placement in this room, their replacements can't come out any farther. Both for WAF and for space reasons. Thus, if I got M80s the back of the M80 would be fairly close to the back wall.
That said, the M80s don't have their own powered subs built in, so I guess the considerations aren't quite the same. Any closer to the wall and these Polks get pretty boomy. I believe I mentioned how surprised I was at the bass quality when I put them where they are right now. In the last place even one inch made a huge difference though, so maybe they'd sound like crap even one inch farther back.
Funny you mention that, Dakkon. It's fairly clear that the FP was an afterthought. Inside the "box" around it all there's still finished hardwood AND baseboard molding. It's the weirdest thing - they didn't cut the molding to make a square drywall frame... they cut the drywall (AND the faux brick base) to fit around the molding. That made fishing the speaker wire and cat5e a real chore, since I couldn't widen the existing hole. Anyway, there's a bit more space before the top of the screen, but the bevel also juts out there more, so unless it was super narrow, like a 3" deep On-Wall sitting on the mantel (which is 7 or 8, I believe), it'd still run into the bottom there.
Alan, you mention an M2 as a center for music... I don't listen to multi channel music, if that makes a difference.
Can I assume that the M22s don't have any placement requirements that differ from most speakers? (Can I also assume that M22s with a good sub will be comparable to M80s?) The issue I may face is that there's no good place in this room for a sub unless I can stash it underneath a chair in the very corner, which does not sound promising sound-wise. I don't require a ton of bass (plus this room is under the upstairs neighbor's bedroom) so I can get away with skimping a bit there as long as it doesn't totally ruin the recording.
As tempting as it is to just put M80s up here, that does effectively triple the price. So if I can do M22s that's probably the smart move.
you could do the in (wall/on wall) or the (on wall) vp150, these are much thiner than the regular vp-150....
depending on how well you know your neighbors, if there is a guy living up there he might be sympathetic to your situation, and be willing to work with you to see what an acceptable sound level in their room would be, and that might be able to help you choose a product. i know if i lived above someone, and they were like " hey man i want to get a nice stereo in my living room with is right under your bedroom", i would be MORE than happy to help out.
depending on the builder there my be no insulation between your celling and their floor, which would be bad for you adding a sub...
your room seems to be pretty small, in my bedroom i have some bookshelf speakers, a center, with an 8" woofer and it works wonderfully.
i would say some m22's ep 125 and one of the thin vp150's.. especially being that this room is under the neighbors bedroom. this will give you a nice sound, and will not be to loud at night.....
Ah, and since the box for the FP isn't right up against the cement block exterior, I can fit the in/on combos. That's the upside to having the fireplace there. The rest of the walls are 2x2 stud and not deep enough. That'd definitely be the best if I'm forced to put the center up top. I wonder if I could build a near-invisible bracket to hang an on wall VP150 from the bottom of the lip of the mantel. That'd put the tweeter at roughly 43" from the ground and in line with the speakers. Might look kind of goofy though. Maybe there's a way to cut out the curving piece and replace it with a rectangular one with an in-wall with a white grille built right into it. That'd be a fun little install. (That'd have to be a 100 though, it seems.)
The upstairs neighbors are renting and move out in 3 weeks. I don't know who the new ones will be but I suspect I met them when they looked at the place, since I haven't seen/heard any new traffic lately for showings. The girls upstairs now told me they haven't heard a peep from the in-ceiling speakers I put in the living room (under their living room) and I've played them at a decent volume at times when I know they're home. There's that green blown in fiber insulation up between our floors, and I guess it's doing a decent job. I can hear EVERYTHING between my own two floors without any insulation. At night when in bed downstairs I can hear the cats trotting around up here, and the dogs sound like elephants. Insulation blocking a 6.5" ceiling speaker and insulation dealing with sub vibration are two different issues though.
I am a night owl, but I can be considerate about volume and bass at night. I do still want it to be powerful enough for mid-day listening.
That said, it doesn't have to be overkill, since ultimately I will have a reference listening room downstairs. That's where I really want to spend my money. So if I can get away with a set of M22s with a custom finish and save a grand, that's another thousand I can spend downstairs... and heck, at this point I'm starting to think the M80s might be all I need for down there too, based on that one guy who got new ones last week that compare to a $50k system. I'm very eager to head south to hear Wid's M80s now.
The space is 14x14 but it's open to the kitchen on the left side. And the kitchen is semi open to the front half too. There's also that little space behind the couch in the dog photo. 110" ceilings. So while it's a nice 8 or 9 foot listening triangle there is a bunch more space to account for with the sub.
Is it worse to put a sub near glass than near drywall? Cause the best spot for it would actually be in front of the inactive one of the two glass double doors. It'd be out of the way, out of a corner, and could double as an attractive wood plant stand. But glass... could be an issue.
By the way, anyone have one of the non-black grille colors? Do you think tan, gold, or siena match these walls (use the daylight photo up above for the best representation of it)? And if so, is that too tacky anyway? Nothing wrong with the contrast of black. Maybe I'd stay black up front but try to color match the grilles on the surrounds since they'd be on the back walls.
i have my sub next to the sliding glass door in the family room. this is mainly due to space restrictions. however because the low frequencies are non directional it doesn't really matter... if you do put the sub next to glass, the glass will diffract the sound waves. kind of like a sub in the back of a hatchback, the back class just spreads the sound waves. you can do the "subwoofer crawl" to find the optimum spot, but sometimes, that just isn't realistic.
i think you should ask your wife about the grill covers, and not us... :p
Downstairs the sub is going to go in the exact optimal spot, even if it's right in the middle of the room where an ottoman might go. Up here there are other considerations, of course.
But I'd rather have no sub than one crammed into a corner sounding like crap.
I'm not familiar with the level of difference between optimal and mediocre placement though. My subs have always been these powered ones inside the speakers. I've never owned a stand alone sub.
WRT the grilles, we/she'll eventually make the decision, of course, as to what looks best. Right now I'm just wondering if anyone has familiarity with them to just say "that wall is the same color as light gold" since I've seen several people say that the examples on the site here aren't 100% accurate.
You can (and should) get samples from Axiom for the grill colors, as well as custom finishes.
That gives new meaning to "I'll have a dog and a beer."
If I told you how much these dogs drink you'd either not believe me or accuse me of animal cruelty.
They LOVE beer and wine. Wine especially. Can't get enough of it. Given the choice between wine or steak, I'm pretty sure the shepherd would choose the wine. (The rottweiler would spin in a circle, staring at both indecisively, until the shepherd had enough time to drink the wine AND eat the steak.)
He's a little bit down on stouts though:
http://www.youtube.com/user/bernreuther#grid/user/19213F2093EA89BB
I may be overthinking things (a common issue that I have) but I'm starting to think that I've lost the ability to judge bass. I'm finding it very hard to determine when bass lingers too long because of bad placement/bad speakers and when it does so because it's just present in the recording.
In just the last ten minutes flicking through songs I've used for evaluations for years I've gone from impressed to disgusted and back with these Polks. On a Knopfler CD I'm not so familiar with but trust as good (based on his history) it sounds merely decent. Jack Johnson songs sound all sorts of boomy, but I know that's his recording. But the low piano note crashing down on Rebecca by Pat McGee Band rings powerful and true not two minutes later. Banjo/bluegrass stuff sounds as clear and accurate up top as it always does, but rock/metal sounds muddy and fatiguing. Maybe that's the recordings though.
Could it be that I'm a terrible judge of sound and have been wasting my money (luckily it hasn't been that much) and parroting the opinions of others?
I think that's entirely possible. I'm going to drag these speakers with me for the M80ti audition I go to just so I can hear things side by side and know for sure what the differences are.
I used to think I had a pretty good ear. I'm starting to doubt that.
Try moving them around a bit. Position is pretty important when it comes to speakers.
I have been. But my concern is that I'm not sure what I'm even hearing (tight bass kicks vs low frequency lasting noise, for instance) or that I'm convincing myself that problems exist where they really don't because I know I'm upgrading soon.
That said, I don't have as much freedom to move them up here as I do downstairs. We're getting a couch for down there delivered on tuesday so I'll have to put these back in that room to see if things start sounding less like being inside a tin can.
Heard M22s and M80/VP180/QS8 today. Was definitely impressed. (But then I came home and was impressed by mine too). The M22s don't have the same range, obviously, but their imaging was spectacular.
I've been saying all along that I don't require a lot of bass, but I'm thinking that I'm more used to my two powered subs built in than I thought.
Anyway, I may still consider the M80s, but the M22 are definitely the clear leader right now. For their price, they're incredible.
Anyone have any experience with the in-cabinets? I ask because I wonder if the fireplace "box" could count as a cabinet. Maybe I could cut a new rectangular white crossing piece for the mantel with the center channel built in. There's no in-wall 150, but there is an in-cabinet. And I think there's enough space back there for it to take the full 6.5" depth.
Bumping up this old thread. We kind of veered off track, but after 8 months I finally ordered and my M22s arrived today (sort of - Fedex left one on the truck and has to come back) and as I suspected, the 5" width of the back rules out just about all of the stand choices I had. The smallest top perch I've seen on an acceptable stand is 6x6.
To recap so you don't need to read all the discussion above, the FMS's triangular base is too large for my space due to the fireplace's base, so I'd like something else (black and metallic).
Does anyone out there have M22s on a non-FMS stand? What brand?
Why does the 5" width on the back rule out other stands? The perch can be wider/longer than the speaker base on all points.
I think that would look pretty weird, having a bit of the perch sticking out.
I might be screwed either way though, since I toe the speakers in.
I caught a northern pike with a bit of the perch sticking out. It indeed looked pretty weird.
How oftern do you look at the stand/speaker perch? I would think it to be only visible while standing up and if you are handy with a grinder and some touch up paint any metal stand can be made to fit. Or make your own wood stands to fit.
On a 24" stand I can see the top whenever I'm seated. Right now they're on barstools and I can see all the exposed top.
On a real stand of course it wouldn't look quite so bad, but it's enough that it wouldn't look right.
I can't imagine it takes too much skill to be handy enough with a grinder... it'd just take a grinder. That is not part of my tool collection. I wonder what they cost...
For what you want to do, the cheapest one out there would be sufficient, I would bet you could find one in the $20-$40 range easily.
Followup: I ordered a 22" Sanus stand that was backordered a bit. Hasn't been delivered yet. The top will probably require a little bit of machining, but they were a good combination of attractive, heavy, semi-small platform, and cheap. And the guy who took the order on the phone lived 3 blocks from my house ten years ago (which was odd, given that he and his company are in Boston).
I will post photos when they arrive.