I want to explore the world of Tube amplifiers and preamps and am wondering if anyone is using Tubes with the M80's.

I also have B%W and I have been told that the tubes do not do so well with them.

Can anyone give me some insight?

thanks

*gets popcorn, kicks back*

Whether solid state or tube, what your willing to spend is important. Tube amplifiers can tend to be more costly, so hopefully you are not working on a shoestring budget. Give us a budget and we will see what people can recommend. And yes, quality tube amplifiers can power speakers like the M80's.

BTW I am enjoying some AT headphones through a vacuum tube amp right now.

The reason tube amps are sometimes contraindicated with particular speakers is not the speaker itself, but it's intended use. Large speakers, like the M80, are usually set up around 10 feet from the listener. The amount power required to achieve the desired playback volume at that distance is so much greater than what would be required at 2 feet, which would be more common with the intimate listening conditions of bookshelves or monitors.

More damage is done to a speaker with a lower power amp pushed far into clipping, than an over-powered amp playing very loud, but clean.

It's much easier to find a 100+ Watt solid state amp than a tube model, and much cheaper too.

So keeping with the generalities, that's why don't you see people pairing tubes with larger speakers so often. Not that it can't be done, it just may require more compromise or money than people want to allow.

saunig

The M80s are efficient. Efficiency is usually expressed as the sound volume in decibels measured at a distance of 1 meter from the speaker with 1 watt of power into the speaker. A speaker with 93 db efficiency will output 93 dbs (really loud) at 1 meter with an output of 1 watt from the amp into the speaker.

If you are sitting 3 meters from the speaker, the sound pressure level falls inversely proportional to the distance 1/r from the sound source. (Not the square of the distance!)

Therefore, if the output is really loud (93db) at one meter, it will still be plenty loud at 3 meters.

Now, Club Neon's concern about clipping with tube amps is misplaced. Tube amps clip softly. That will not damage your speakers.

That having been said, the M80s have twin tweeters and are rated at 4 ohm average resistance.

I would go with an integrated tube amp. There are many high current and high output tube amps which are notorious for their beautiful sound quality and ability to drive difficult loads:

Antique Sound Labs Hurricane, rated best amp by The Absolute Sound a few years ago. The Prima Luna Mystere amp should do a wonderful job with far fewer watts. 25-50 wpc should be sufficient to push M80s to very loud sound levels.

Pacific Creek makes some very nice tube amps, JoLida (great amps), Manley Labs (check out their Stingray). I'd check out the H.H. Scott vintage amps modified and upgraded by Mapleshade Audio (Pierre Sprey's outfit), I would also consider the Vincent hybrid tube/solid state amps. [I may pick one of these Vincents up soon]

Any of these 50 wpc tube amps should drive the M80s to high sound levels and provide you with the audio bliss of a good tube amp coupled with a pair of great speakers.

BTW, there are many tube amp manufacturers in China which are putting out excellent tube amps.

I have a Manley Stingray and M80's. I will be hooking them up this weekend and I will report back back to you.

David, although this is an area in which mythologies flourish, there is insight of a factual nature available. The first point is to understand that any amplifier, regardless of the specific technology, only adds voltage from its power supply section to the weak incoming voltage to make it sufficient to drive speakers to loud levels. For example, if at a particular instant in time a tenth of a volt is incoming and the gain of the amplifier is a typical 28.3 times, the output voltage to the speaker is 2.83 volts. This results in 1 watt being used by the speaker when the impedance is 8 ohms(Ohm's Law; voltage squared divided by impedance). This is all that any amplifier with claims to high fidelity does. The sound isn't colored in any audible way, it's just made louder.

Having the voltage added in a tube rather than a transistor doesn't necessarily result in a flawed "tube sound" when properly designed. As the editor of the Audio Critic nicely summarizes in "Electronic Signal Paths Do Not Have a Personality!" , competently designed units amplify transparently. However, design inadequacies can creep into many tube designs, especially in having such a high output impedance as to result in frequency fluctuations when speaker impedance fluctuates. Dr. Toole, in discussing this in Sound Reproduction at p.423 states that: "To reviewers these are moderately discomfiting numbers because the inevitable conclusion is that tube power amplifiers, as a population, cannot allow loudspeakers to perform as they were designed"; and at p.425: "In summary, with tube amplifiers, the internal impedance is already so high that damage is done to the frequency responses of loudspeakers having normal impedance variations".

Of course, there is a small but at times highly vocal(and unfortunately sometimes rather strident, as we've witnessed) minority of listeners who claim that mysterious benefits appear when a tube is used to add the voltage. The fact that there's no credible evidence to support this is ignored. The classic Stereo Review blind listening tests still stand unchallenged(by real evidence, not just stubborn disagreement)and among other items showed that the $12,000 pair of tube amplifiers was indistinguishable from the $220 Pioneer receiver. Note in particular the detailed and sometimes flowery descriptions at the end of the article of the sound differences claimed before the blind sessions began and the brand labels and price tags disappeared.

So, if a correctly designed high power tube amplifier is purchased, it can drive speakers such as the M80s well, but the purchase price would be significantly higher and long-range maintenance reliability lower than readily available solid state units. This doesn't appear to be a very attractive world to "explore".

I guess we don't need the forum anymore. We'll just have one post that says you should buy M22's and a receiver with Dolby PLII.

This is my last post. I try to have fun and be nice to people but I can't stand this anymore.

Asta la Vista

Asta la vista?

John is a blow-hard. Quack is a flack. Anyone who disagrees with their reductionist arrogance is not welcome here. That's clear. Medic8r may try to change the subject in order to distract from the unpleasant truth ... and that is, there is only one acceptable opinion as to each tenet espoused by the faithful who have taken over this site.

Quack is glad to see you go, Lamp, after all, that 12000 post fella is one of the chorus.

JohnK, you've ruined this forum. You are immodest, dull and intolerant. You, and pmbuko, and quack and the usual suspects have reduced this forum to a backwater where a handful of the converted preach to a very small choir of the faithful.

Lamp, I hope you reconsider. Have pity on Axiom, they're probably afraid to cross these folks who have commandeered their site - although I think the faithful regard Alan Lofft as their rude-guru - so who knows.

At the end of the day, these people who've commandeered this site are not making Axiom look good. It really is a shame.

Chris, stick around. Varying opinions ARE welcome here.

Just because five people like tubes and ten people don't isn't any reason to leave. You state your preference, others state theirs and you move on to other important topics like what kind of sandwich someone is eating or which super car is the prettiest.

It's all good.

I hate to say it Mark, it sure doesn't seem like other opinions are welcomed. At least that's not how I read this thread. And for Randy to just dismiss Chris in the way he did is shameful.

I've honestly and truly never seen it that way.

I see each side stating their opinion on the matter, but I've never seen anyone post here that they were interested in tubes and been told to "go away" or called names.

I just see the other side saying that they don't believe in tubes.

There's no "agenda" with either group. There are people that are "pro", people that are "con" and people that fall in the middle.

I sincerely think that almost every member here, high post count or not, is looking to help others. If that means that they're going to state their opinion about tubes, esoteric cables or wooden replacement knobs, so be it if the goal is to help the OP out.

I don't see it as hostile, until someone makes a big deal out of it and makes it seem like members have to choose sides.

Live and let live, I say.

You like the sound of an amp? It brings you pleasure? Enjoy it. It doesn't matter if I see things differently.

I get no Points in life by making others feel the same way I do.

As for Randy's comment, I agree with you 100%.

NO ONE should be "dismissed" like that, unless their time here is spent annoying others. And Chris has certainly done nothing to deserve that comment.

2x6, interesting since I own seperates. John usually backs his comments with factual testing. Not saying I agree with everything, but I do listen to both sides of the story. Don't see where I took his side, and also a member of other boards that look at flacks as outcasts, so it goes both ways.

As for the Arnold quote, I was just saying goodbye in Spanish, I see I spelled it wrong, should have been Hasta. For whatever reason you guys read sarcasim in my statement, hard to do with typing. Chris, didn't mean anything mean by it, afterall, you are the one that went running and said you are not coming back.

Prost!

Look. Can't people just agree to disagree on some things? some people like tube amps, some don't, each side should accept that. I've never taken a side on this, in part, because I've never owned a tube but I do appreciate the information that several of the more knowledgeable members put forth whether for/against certain amps. I don't find anything that JohnK, Chris(neon) or anyone else for that matter, in any way offensive or derogatory to other members. On the other hand, 2x6 seems rather sensitive to anyone who disagrees with him, and rather than debate the topic respectfully, resorts to personal attacks to those members(as history shows). I should probably have kept out of this completely, however, it irks me to see certain people, who have helped me so much since I joined here, treated with that level of disrespect. The amp debate is like the Audyyssey debate, or the Coke/Pepsi debate, to each his own....2x6, you have every right to express your opinion, as does everyone else here but intentional or not, you seem to be very divisive with your blanket statements.

Lampy, I hope you'll stick around once the nuclear cloud has passed, I enjoy your friendship here.

Yeah, THAT's what I wanted to post!

One would certainly hope so. Mature and psychologically healthy people do that all the time. Pity it is not happening here.


You are spot on. However, 2x6 is so oversensitive that I doubt that he is going to see it this way. He's holding onto that victim card with every ounce of his strength. Every time I've tried to reason it out has been fruitless. So I'm done talking about it. I'm going to devote my energy elsewhere.

I agree with you Adrian, I don't recal I've ever taken a stand against Tube lovers. I don't know the first thing about tube technology, but have friends that are diehard believers. Everything Audio interests me and I am interested in the history of all this technology going back to before I was born. I don't see how my post count has anything to do with saying I'm in some click. I don't post near as much as I did when I first found Axiom, and go some weeks without even a post.

2x4, sorry I commented nicely a few months back to some of your pictures you posted, why would a clack do that, I should have commented about how inferior your equipment is and how my old JVC and Sansui receivers are better.

Didn't someone tell me once you were an attorney? Can't image what you charge per hour to solid state guys.

Chris: If you leave, I am going to hide out in your backyard and slingshot all the pretty birds at your feeder. Then, I'm gonna break in and stencil Pennsylvaia Dutch motifs on your pink Magentos.

Finally, I'll tell Jay that you're fluent in Thai and have just been being a jerk.

Axiom High School lives!

Really!?! All this over something so incredibly trite. And then it all gets personal.

Like in high school, we should be arguing over important stuff---like penny loafers or wingies.

And should one really put pennies in the loafers?

People used to get hurt over that one.

Now look what you did Lampy! you got Bob all upset.

So what I'm taking away from this conversation, thus far, is that Bob is old.

Just curious why you own separates now since you have been touting that a receiver is all you need. You weren't against separates when you had the Oddyessy monoblocks, then sold them. Then posted in the amplification threads how a receiver is all one needs to drive axioms (I power my Axioms in a 5000 cubic foot room or whatever with my Denon). You now own separates AGAIN...lol...are you going to be more lenient on your stance on external amplification?...lol

Don't get me wrong, you don't have to justify your purchases to me. I just think this is funny. This is a prime example of cognitive dissonance.

I've been on this forum for a couple of months now, and what i've seen is someone asks for some info or opinion on a particular subject; then others say what they think or know (knowledge sharing) and, in the end, the OP makes his own mind and takes a decision after considering all that has been written.
When problems arise, it usually is because some people are dogmatic when they should be giving advice only.

"Dogmas are prison bars" that one constructs around his own self; one of the components of conservatism.
Not a very diplomatic way of saying it, but very easy to understand by all...

I've yet to read anyone here asking for info. on dogmas regarding a specific piece of equipment and acting blindly according to them; but they are sometimes given as irrefutable truth for what i consider no valid reasons; and they are of no appreciable help.
Dogmas belong to religion, not audio.

any piece of gear should be considered according to its particular advantages and disadvantages (fitness) in view of it's intended purpose; nothing more, nothing less.

That's what I'm thinking as I'm presenting what I know. Get the facts out there (and if I'm mistaken about something, welcome a correction), and let the person who's asking the question make up their mind.

Unfortunately this thread was derailed so early on that a conversation with the OP wasn't even possible. Ironically, the ones doing the derailing were the ones claiming that this forum is going down hill.

The MPS-1 was a piece of crap which is why it went back to Emotiva. The Odyssey's were awesome, but the German design runs very very hot and my AV cabinet I had no options for stacking. Each of them required ample space around them for ventilation. They were also mono's and I wanted full seperate amplification of 7 channels, which is why I have the Outlaw now. A nice retired gentleman in Phoenix now enjoys them.

At moderate listening levels most will find no difference, which is why a receiver is all most will need. If you follow Alan's articles about achieving a real experience of chamber grand piano and/or concert levels a 100watt receiver won't cut it during 20dB swings.

The Outlaw (ATI) amp will probably be the last amp I will ever need. The impace in movies is noticable compared to the Denon alone. Plan to get the new 978 if/when it gets released because of all the Japan problems.

Sleep well.

I like those Outlaw amps. Maybe not as much as Rotel but they're nice

Hang around! We need tube lovers like you to help balance things out around here. To the OP, look at Rogue Cronus as well.

It's more fun to talk about audio than it is to talk about how we talk about audio.

I have had only receivers and integrated amps. I hope to have some tube devices and separates some day.

I get great joy from this hobby.

I have made MANY very meaningful friendships here. I have learned SO much.

If we keep our discussions POSITIVE and keep them about the topics and not the people, we'll have more fun.

Fun, Dammit.

Tube amps are great. If your dealing with a 2 channels stereo set up. HT setups on the other hand...I really have no use for. Having Harry Potter, or Starwars blow my ears off..could care less. Not worth the money for tubes.

Playing Beethoven, or Bach, or whatever. On a Good tube amp, with a good pre, and Vinyl....now thats what music is about.

REFLECT!

We finally found who bbigwyr is ! REFLECT!

Thanks Johnk and Lampaxiom .....I am looking forward to hearing how the Manley sounds with the M80's. I am pretty sure I was looking for some people to talk about tube amps or preamps or tube int. Hoping to hear from people who own or have used axiom products with tubes.

I wasnt expecting a bunch of hens beaking at each other!! Honest to Christ!!! Almost four pages of nonsense.

Is it like that all the time?

2x6spds. thanks for the information

Has to be the best comment of the whole thread!

You're welcome sauniq. Good luck with your new system.

No, it isn't. Rarely, even.

The OP posed a very simple question and some of the responses come as no surprise to me. It appears to me there is some misinformation and factual lapses in one or two of the above responses but I do respect the opinions of those expressing those views, whether I agree or not. The ones where I disagree usually contain the mantra that frequency response is all that matters and all amplified watts are the same etc. I've debated the same points too often with several of the above posters so all I will say that based on my experience all amps lend a sonic character, simply because there is more to sound than just frequency response.

I've hear the M80s through all sorts of different amps. As with all speakers more power is usually your friend. For an HT I've always recommended solid state amps with the M80s. But for dedicated stereo listening tubes can often bring a realism to vocals, strings or horns missing from SS amps .

I've always had McIntosh tube amps in the house. I've tried the M80s with mc240, mc275 and mc2102 amps. All of them had a different sound quality with the m80s. The mc240s at only 40wps were very satisfying at moderate levels but ran out of gas with loud classical or rock music passages. The mc2102s at 100wps had a more nuanced presentation but didn't have the solid tighter bottom end of the mc275 at 75wps with its higher damping factor.

Anyway I would encourage sauniq to try out some tube amps. The M80s sound wonderful with them.

One of the absolute best experiences I've had listening to a 2 channel system was in the middle of a A/V store's showroom here in Vero Beach and the simple system consisted of a pair of McIntosh floor standing speakers connected to a McIntosh mc275 tube amp along with the source (CD).

Only if my lovely wife (and CFO) would let me spend... I had *that* kind of money to spend on this hobby.

Nice to hear from you again John!

Hi Rick, trust you are well! Any changes to your system lately?

Good to hear from you John..

Randy

ps: Rick, sell that boat and get the tubes.

I apologize for resurrecting a dead thread but I always wondered what my m80's would sound like if I had a tube amp. Can someone describe what the axiom speakers sound like when running on a tube? I always got close but for budgetary reasons never pulled the trigger on a decent tube amp. For the record, the two best systems I have heard were running off a tube amp. One was with B&W Nautilus floorstanding speakers and the other was running with older floorstanding Thiel speakers.

Those must have been HUGE tube amps.

Actually, not really. I don't know how many watts the one connected to the Thiel drivers were but the ones connected to the Nautilus drivers was I believe 27x2.

There hasn't been any startling new development in this area of audio technology and the factual information provided three months ago isn't in need of amendment. What was true then still is: amplification should make sounds louder without otherwise audibly changing them. Competent engineering does this regardless of the nature of the output device. Tube amplifiers when correctly designed can be competitive with solid state amplifiers in sound, but not likely in price.

Hello Spiroh

I've driven a pair of M3Tis with a 5wpc Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15dt tube amplifier (in Single End Triode mode). With a Velodyne subwoofer, it was audio bliss.

The M80s are a more challenging load. I'd go with a Prima Luna or Mystere, or Jolida Single End Triode amp in the 20-50 wpc range. Depends on your budget of course.

You're in for a treat. Not all solid state amplifiers sound the same. Not all tube amps sound great. It is a world of audio color out there. JohnK lives in a grey world, where all solid state amps sound the same and all tube amps are junk unless they sound like solid state amps.

Enjoy the music. Trust your ears. Avoid audio dogma. Don't be intimidated by audio dogmatists.

I grew up in a house with a solid state McIntosh while my uncle had a McIntosh tube amp. It was always amusing to see my dad and uncle argue about whos was better.

Nice to know I'm in good company. What's remarkable about the Mac amps is how they sound so similar whether solid state or tube design. I've always suspected its because of the autotransformers that they use in all their amps. Nevertheless all the Mac amps have nuances to their sound. Since I made that post I traded in some gear for a pair of solid state MC501 monoblock amps for a tighter bass sound, though they lack some of that air and mid range emphasis that you get from tube amps.

Nice to see you post, John.

I heard a pair on paradigm speakers with this amp and they sounded fantastic and the price on this amp is great and he also had the tube phono preamp.

http://cgi.ebay.com/YAQIN-MC-10L-Push-Pu...#ht_2584wt_1163

Im thinking about buying the amp to power my M80`s for 2 channel .

Hi PT,

I checked the specifications and since the amp has output transformer taps for 4-ohm loads, you should be just fine using it for the M80s.

Keep in mind that, unlike solid-state amplifiers which essentially have an output impedance of 0 ohms, the output impedance of a tube amplifier is never zero, and its higher output impedance may interact with the impedance curve of the loudspeakers. That may affect the linearity of the frequency response (i.e. it won't be as smooth as a solid-state amp) in which case you may find that the amp does indeed sound different from your usual solid-state amp.

As to other mystical qualities attributed to tube amplifiers (added "air" and the like), I believe those exist largely in the active imagination of the listener.

It should be fun to experiment.

Regards,
Alan

Thank you for the input .

Another question i have is if i do go this route , the way i wanted to hook up the speakers is have my anthem on 1 set of terminals and the tube amp on the other set .

Both amps will not be on at the same time .

Is this advisable

Rob, I agree with the cautions Alan mentioned above. On the question of possibly having two amplifiers connected at once, even if only one is "on", the other is still connected by the connecting strips on the M80 terminals to the output of the one that's on and its output transistors(or tubes, etc.)will be damaged. So, this is a definite no-no.

Just to add what Alan is saying about high output impedance and how there can be frequency response variations. This is in terms of portable music devices and headphones and not tube-amps and speakers but the concept is similar.

Ipod Touch 3G - 7 ohms (High)
Sansa Clip+ - 1 ohm (Low)


(NwAvGuy, 2011)

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/sansa-clip-measured.html

Off topic because I am talking about a Guitar, but I just want to support the tube people <G>..
Always used SS with my M80's and really do not intend on going tube, but I bought my son a Fender Twin Reverb Amp for his Les Paul and all I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!, that is one awesome amp. Of course, there is way more to the AMP than just the tubes. Thought about plugging it into my M80's just to see, but I don't want to damage them.
Just my opinion - I don't care what the numbers say, but that Tube AMP he has is awesome. Now, I just need to get him to turn it down
I know this is way differnet than listening to Classical music and striving for clarity, but this is the CLEANEST guitar amp I have ever heard.

Thanks for the info John/Alan , it was just a thought .

I would like a second set of speakers for 2 ch but no room and really my system sounds so good now with the Anthem .

I guess perhaps the only thing i might try is a tube phono preamp to replace the Cambridge im currently using .

Tube amps glowing BRIGHT!
Lush distortion, liquid smooth
Music warms the soul

I had a wonderful time experimenting with tube amps, after I connected the first one I was ready to call it off immediately, however, with a little tweaking and changing of my preamp I spent a few hours just flipping discs and Lps. Axioms performed very well with a Manley amps. Since then I have tried Mac's and ASL and all were very different and all were very good. ASL Monsoons are by far my favourite. I decided to keep them and do not use them as much as my solid state, but not because they are better or worse, probably because its just simpler to run quickly.

What model Manley did you try? I am still lusting for a Stingray but my finances say "No, No, No"!

ASL Monsoon Good!

How about this for $89 for your Denons 2X6?

Cheers!

Oh my goodness, but that is beautiful! Whazzat?

What Denons?

I'm curious to find out what it is, too?

Mini headphone amplifier.

http://www.littledot.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=927&sid=87bc17882c20b2b54a68bb2f96621660