I ordered my Version "3.5" M80s in the transition period when the new tweeters were available, but the Version 4 designation wasn't yet available. The plates on my speakers say 3.0, but my friend's older 3.0 M80s have different tweeters. Cest la vie...

I've run my speakers with an Emotiva XPR-2 amplifier, with a Crown PS-400 amplifier, with a Nakamichi Stasis 5 amplifier, with an Emotiva XPA-5 amplifier, and now, with a pair of bridged Crown XLS-2000 amplifiers.

They're run as stereo speakers in a 2.1 configuration system (driven directly from an Oppo BDP-105 and with a Powersound Audio XV-15 sub) and in a 5.1 configuration for movies.

So how do they sound? I thought you'd never ask! Two things have surprised me about these speakers:

1. How little they care about placement. I originally put my speakers on some furniture casters so I could roll them about & try different placements. The sounded equally good at all locations, so I then installed the outriggers & placed them in locations of convenience. They image brilliantly regardless of positioning! Perhaps this is due to the nine ATS sound absorbers (and one corner bass trap) that I have in the room, but I doubt it. They just don't seem to care about placement. This is the exact OPPOSITE experience of my friend who has the older 3.0 M80s. In his room, even an inch makes a difference. Go figure...

2. How revealing the speakers are of ALL upstream equipment. Insert a preamp - the sound changes. Add a tube buffer - WHOA! Switch from one amplifier to another - Yes, Tinkerbell, one CAN hear the difference in amplifiers! Given smooth amplifiers with enough current to swing the 4-ohm Axioms, the speakers just virtually disappear, leaving a wide, deep soundstage. If the amplifier has even the slightest trouble with high amperage & low impedance, you'll know it instantly.

In the near future, I'll have the pleasure of reviewing the yet-to-be-introduced Yamaha Aventage RX-A1040 for Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity (www.hometheaterhifi.com). I'll be using the Axioms as the main speakers for the review. Based on my experience so far with my M80s, I feel confident that they'll be sufficiently revealing to expose the Yamaha's best.

In the meantime, I've got friends from out of town coming this weekend to hear the Axioms. Hopefully, they'll take the time to write up their impressions too.

My conclusion so far is that the Axioms are equal to the best of the best loudspeakers I've owned (to date, the Thiel 3.6 and the Magnepan 1.6). Obviously, due to the radiation pattern, the Axioms are closer to the Thiels than the Maggies, but in my room, forward-radiating box speakers seem to do best.

So Bravo, Axiom - my M80s are a real hit!

Boomzilla

Boom, which amplifier do you feel worked best with the M80s? I'm curious how the Pro-amps compared to the others.

It is interesting what you wrote. I had a completely different experience.

I will agree with you that the M80 are very forgiving in the placement. I found that moving them around inside my room had very little if any effect on the sound. You could get a bit more base boom if you put them directly into the corner, but that was just getting silly.

I will agree that they are a fantastic sounding speaker. I did find them very revealing for the source material that I used. I have quite a collection of music, but found that 30% of what I had sounded awful from the speakers. About 50% of my music sounded pretty good, but that last 20% was jaw dropping fantastic.

They lies the problem with these speakers. They truly play you back what is recorded. If your source material isn't up to snuff, then you better just hit the eject button and try something else. It just won't cut it. Find something recorded great and you will be in sound nirvana.

But where I found it different. I can't say I have the most expensive collection of amps or receivers. But I honestly could not tell the difference between my old cheep Yamaha receiver and my latest Anthem amp with a dedicated pre-amp. Whatever I used, the good recorded stuff sounded fantastic.. the bad stuff sounded like it was missing any life. And the rest sounded better than any speakers I have had in the past, but not quite at that perfect state.

I will admit that I have never owned a tube amp, nor could tell you what one sounds like.

I will admit that I have never owned an amp costing over 4 digits. Perhaps that is why I have not experienced a difference.

I will also admit that I traded in the M80 within the 30 days and picked up the LFR1100. It did make a small bit of a difference. And as they require a pre-amp out and 4 amp channels to work, I can't really test them with my old Yamaha or Nakamichi. So unless someone want to loan me more equipment to try them out, I will just stick with my current Pioneer Elite with it's pre-outs and the Anthem amp.

But part of me still misses those M80 as they did sound awsome and for the price they are, WOW, what a deal.

I have a tube integrated amp & for the life of me, I don't believe that I can hear any difference between it & my SS receiver.

Similarly, I changed out a complete set of tubes (10 of them) for a new backup set of another brand & I still didn't hear any difference between the 2 sets. This is contrary to all of the wisdom out there that espouses that different brands of tubes, types & vintage vs modern make big differences in an amp's sound signature. It doesn't for me; however, I might not be as susceptible to placebo effect like many others seem to be.

Tube gear does look cool though & I love being around them...

TAM

Tam , you know well enough that you don't have golden ears ,how could you possibly hear a difference. Maybe you can get an ear job next time LOL

Did that sub ever show up today??

No!! It was in Nanaimo at 1 PM but never showed up an hour up the road. I waited all day only to have my hopes dashed, sniff!

I don't know if UPS delivers on Saturdays out here, but if they do, it'll probably be on my doorstep before I get up in the morning.

Actually, I could probably use an ear job, but then I might find that my speakers are bright, ha!

TAM

Sorry to hear , damn delivery companies they don't realize how important I think I am. I am not sure if UPS deliver Saturday's down there but they sure don't here. I have learned to not stress as much over deliveries, its been a long hard road. It will be there soon enough.

Boom its good to see you're happy. You took so long to post your thoughts I'd wondered if you'd sent them back.

No big box here this morning, sniff. The UPS Tracker has changed from 'Friday' (yesterday) to 'Unknown' now. I expect that this means Monday now.

What is interesting, it probably was driven right past me on its way to their depot in Campbell River that is 45 minutes up the road from us...

TAM

Adrian - To date, the "amplifier horse race" is too close to call. On some material, one amp is better by a nose, on other material, the second amp sounds better. The only constant I've seen is that amplifiers that don't like low-impedance loads don't do as well with the Axioms. My Crown PS-400, while a GREAT amplifier on higher-impedance speakers (such as my previous Definitive Technology SM-65s, rated at 6 ohms) failed to have sufficient dynamics with the M80s.

The "pro" Crown amplifiers are half the price (or less) of an equivalent home audio amp with similar power. Their performance, even with the Class-D modules, is equivalent to the the Class-A or Class-AB contenders. Therefore, I consider them a true bargain & recommend them highly. The all Class-A Nakamichi Stasis 5 sounded more open & airy on top, but the Crowns are no slouches. Of the Crown line, the amp that I have liked the best is the XLS-1500. They're powerful, cheap, and every time I play them, I'm surprised by their fine sound. Don't run them bridged - they sound better in stereo.

Oakvillematt - I'm not at all surprised that we have different experiences. You seem to be searching for a system that will make all your recordings sound good. I would rather have the unvarnished truth (even if it reveals some of my recordings as poor-sounding). When I want some "glamour" for the less-than-great recordings, I switch my tube buffer into the system. It conceals a multitude of recording sins.

exlabdriver - The newer tube products are engineered to sound neutral (as are the newer SS products). Therefore, I'm not surprised that they sound similar. Older tube products, however, (think Dynaco, et al) sound significantly more distinct.

I'll post more comments as time goes by. I'm particularly interested in what the Yamaha RX-A1040 will do with these speakers. AV receivers, traditionally, have profoundly sucked with low-impedance speakers. We'll see...

Boom:

I agree with your assessment of modern tube amps; however, when I researched extensively online wrt to replacement tube choices, there were so many comments on how certain tubes sounded in my my amp, I became quite cynical as to what people were hearing.

I just didn't experience anything like that when I tried different tubes at home...

TAM

Great post! Thanks so much for sharing your experience.

I can't help but think that having a well treated listening room contributes meaningfully to your enjoyment.

Cheers!

I don't know if I'd say I a looking for speakers to make everything sound good. Its more that I am looking for speakers that will give me the best sound for the music that I like.

I know that some of the recordings that I have will never sound as good as others. Lets face it. The Forgotten Rebels recorded most of their stuff in a basement using a cheep 8 track bought at a garage sale. it will never sound that good, but the gritty bad recording is what makes it so great.

I understand that when the Rolling Stones recorded most of their early stuff, the sound reproduction of hi-fi equipment in the 50's and 60's would mask the limited dynamic range that was recorded. So it is understandable that these needed to be "remastered" A.K.A. re-processed to augment digitally what was never there in the original recordings. If you wanted the originals to sound good, then don't get good speakers.

You are right in suggesting getting a tube pre-amp to warm up the sound and add back in what may have been taken out in compensation for the hardware of that era.

What is sad is that it's becoming more common now for recordings to be compressed to sound good on your ipod/iphone ear buds as that is where the music is mostly being listened on. Are the real hi-fi of today destined to become relics to the slave of convenience.

So NOW I'm a real boy!


Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Hi exlabdriver - I have no experience with "tube rolling," so I can't comment on it. From what I've read, some components are more sensitive than others.

Hi tomtuttle - YES, the first few absorber pads I installed made a HUGE difference, the rest, far less. Again - If you control slap echo, most other things (except bass resonances) take care of themselves.

Hi Oakvillematt - I agree with you that much current music is compressed for headphone use. I don't know what to do about it, but to select what I like to listen to and hope it's well recorded...

CatBrat - You SLAY me! LOL

I had four friends over this weekend to listen to the Axioms. They wanted to listen at 100 dB plus levels. In my room, at that volume, the Axioms just weren't at their best. One of the guys was a bass head and wanted significantly more bass than my Powersound Audio XV-15 would put out ( ! ). He was also disappointed because the Axioms didn't sound like his Klipsch speakers ( ? ). Another guy was accustomed to listening in a much larger room at live concert levels & was disappointed that the Axioms weren't able to do stadium volumes ( !! ). They all allowed, however, that the M80s sounded "good" in my room.

I don't listen loudly, I don't care if every recording doesn't sound good (I prefer accuracy, thanks), and I don't want to vibrate my fillings out (except occasionally). The Axioms, crossed over the the sub at 80 Hz, are a GOOD match for my room and my preferences. Although they might not have been the first choice of my friends, I think that these ARE the speakers for me!

Boom

Boom, that is such a great story. I know where you are coming from. I had a fellow over as he was interested in listening to my Axioms. He has a set of Paradigm speakers. I was curious to what he thought so I let him listen

He commented that my LFR's didn't have enough bass and the high end was off. Well, after adjusting my receiver eq, bass and treble controls, he concluded that yes the speakers were all right but needed a whole load of adjustment to get them sounding proper. I thought it made everything awful.

Personally I usually listen in pure direct mode as it gives me a nice clean sound.

So over the weekend I went to his house to listen and found his speakers to be rather muddly. Took a look at his pre-amp and found his treble cranked up to 7 and his bass all the way to 10.

Sort of explained his comment to me about my LFR's

Listening preferences are nothing but totally subjective.

This is why I find most of the speaker reviews, assessments & recommendations from the vast majority of users/posters out there are totally irrelevant to me or anyone else.

Boom & Matt - thanks for your experiences with those other listeners. This corroborates my longstanding sentiments exactly...

TAM

Previous speakers that have sounded best in my room include Dahlquist DQ-10s, KEF studio monitors, Thiel 1.5 and 3.6 models, and Klipsch La Scalas (?). My M80s cleave closer to the Thiels, of course, but with the same smoothness of frequency response, and somewhat better dynamics.

Unlike the previous speakers, the M80s are NOT amplifier-sensitive. My old DQ-10s wanted Adcom amps or they had no dynamics, the Thiels would sound tight in the bass only with LARGE McIntosh or Emotiva amplifiers, and the La Scalas sang only with tubes - go figure!

My only criticism (to date) of the M80s is that at very, very high volumes (that I never listen at), the upper midrange (soprano voices) can become slightly shrill. This is not audible at lower volumes, and therefore not a problem for me. I've noticed the high-volume shrillness at that specific frequency range with multiple amplifiers, though, so I'm thinking that it's an artifact of the M80s themselves - not the associated equipment. Since other speakers don't have that problem in my room, the room itself is not the cause, either.

The "new" version 4 tweeters (which I have in my speakers) are noticeably less hard sounding than the version 3 tweeters which my friend has in his M80s, so if Axiom offers those as an upgrade, I'd think them worth the money.

I've got an AV receiver on the way to temporarily replace my current separates. I've never liked (any) AV receiver that I've heard. Their amplifiers are insufficient to adequately power low-impedance speakers. Both pairs of Thiels, some Magnepan 1.6s, and my current M80s are all four-ohm loads and/or difficult to drive because of crossover complexities. This Yamaha may surprise me, or not...

In any case, I'll continue to occasionally post about my M80s if I have anything new to say. Feel free to ignore my posts as you see fit.

Cordially - Boomzilla

And just as an aside, I recently tried my Axiom M80s with a variety of preamps and power amps including:

Audio Research LS2B MKII tube/FET preamp
Musical Fidelity X-Cans 3 tube headphone/pre amp
Yaqin SD-CD3 tube buffer

and

Audio Research D90 tube power amp
Crown XLS-2000 power amps (used as both stereo & mono)
Emotiva XPA-5 solid-state power amp

Each combo offered its own advantages and disadvantages, but ultimately, the combo that sounded best with my M80s in my room was the Yaqin tube buffer driving two channels of the Emotiva XPA-5.

Now I've added an Emotiva center channel & I'll see how they all do on movie sound!

By the bye, in my particular room, the M80s (not the high powered - just the standard ones) do NOT supply satisfactory bass. If I had some "tone controls," this might be fixable but without them, the speakers are bass shy. It doesn't matter to me because I run the M80s in "small" mode from my Oppo BDP-105 with the below-80-Hz sounds supplied by a PowerSound Audio XV-15 subwoofer. That blends perfectly with the M80s and the combo is ideal for music and impressive on movies.

Thanks for keeping us updated Boom. Interesting stuff.

Curious.
Is it fair to say the M80s are "bass shy". They were certainly not designed to compete with a subwoofer for deep LFE frequencies. Depends what previous models you are comparing to I guess. There are some floor model speakers that attempt to do both functions, but an M80 is not one of them.

While not 80s, I've heard some impressive bass for thier size out of M60s in large mode for my casual stereo setup upstairs. In the HT room, I have another pair with a good sub and run them as small to get the full effect for movies and super bass heavy tunes, as per thier intended design.

Good points, Murph - so allow me to clarify.

Bass (for all speakers) is a placement-sensitive issue; imaging is the same. However, the best location for one is rarely the best for the other. I've placed my M80s for superior imaging. In that location, and in my room, yes, they are "bass shy." This isn't the fault of the speakers. I could easily find a "compromise position" where both imaging and bass would be 90%, but that's not good enough for me.

Therefore, I use the subwoofer to make up for the bass that I lose by locating the speakers far out from the walls.

I've also, lately, had the good fortune to acquire some Audio Research tube electronics (D90 amp and LS2B MKII preamp). The M80s have quite a different sound with these than with my usual solid-state electronics. The midrange is lusher, the treble a bit softer, but the mid-bass is far more solid. The effect on male voices is to make them more "present" in the room. The effect on orchestral music is to bring out the cellos, basses, and tympani.

So will I keep the tubes or go back to solid state? Time will tell...

Yep, amen to that. I got lucky and finally found a spot where bass and imaging were both pretty good, but I had to rip out a bunch of living room furniture and lean Roxul panels up against half the windows to get there -- and even with all that imaging is not as good as it was in some of the previous locations.

Your experience with the tube electronics are interesting... I'm still toying with the idea of trying a tube pre-amp to see what difference it makes.

Hi bridgman -

May I recommend the Yaqin CD3 tube buffer? It's inexpensive, and gives 90% of the best tube sound I've ever heard without the sloppiness. It really is a fine product, particularly for its price.

I looked long & hard at the buffer; however, I snagged from ebay an almost new Yaquin MC-100B integrated tube amp for about double the price of the buffer.

I expected a huge difference in sound from my SS gear, but it really didn't happen for me. I really like it though, especially its appearance because tubz are cool...

TAM - in Flagstaff & heading for the Grand Canyon trying to outrun Odine.

Hi exlabdriver -

Today's tube equipment is deliberately designed to have less "tube sound" than did products of old. Therefore, differences ARE more subtle - typically a bit more soundstage width/depth and a touch of "lushness" in the midrange. I like the sound of my tube buffer, and the majority of friends who have heard it agree.

Thanks Boomzilla. Was about to try the CD3 tube buffer, but made the mistake of staring at my system for a while trying to figure out what upgrades I would probably want to do in the future. I decided that supporting some kind of digital sources would probably be the next step, so instead of the CD3 I ordered a TubeDac 11 from Grant Fidelity (basically a DAC/pre-amp with tube buffer on the output).

Figured that would also let me use a digital connect for the CD carousel, which I remember sounding just a tiny bit better than the analog (with levels at least casually matched).

I guess the obvious configuration options are :

- as a DAC, connect DAC out to receiver AUX in, continue using receiver pre-outs to drive power amp

- as a pre-amp, connect receiver tape-out to TubeDAC aux in for phono & tuner, connect CD carousel to optical in, connect tube out to power amp

At least one of those should work

EDIT - oh yeah, the other planned upgrade is an acrylic platter for the turntable, since some idiot purchased a moving coil cartridge (Denon DL-110) before remembering that the Debut Carbon had a steel platter.

Actually the configurations get more complicated if I want to be able to flip back and forth to see the difference made by (a) tube buffer and (b) CD going through external DAC rather than built-in DAC.

Reviews suggest it comes with a bunch of cables, looks like I'll probably be using them all.

Well, I've found a way of positioning my M80s that provides an entirely new perspective on their sound! By moving my speakers closer together and then slightly toeing them out (rather than in, toward the listening position), I get more reflected sound from the room and less direct sound. The effect is VERY interesting. Has anyone else tried this?

I did consider it once.

ahhh I own m80's but an older design, They handle being positioned wrong well hahaha. they handle being abused ie low wattage high volume, they handle being cranked way way past the limit, they will give you true transparent music:::::::: that is where they differ from other high end speakers, the good you hear every aspect of the recording, The bad for Audiophiles: you hear everything wrong with the recording but that's good you hear everything you need to hear. I don't want muffled crap that masks the real deal.

Curious discoveries about my M80s:

1. If the speakers are toed OUT slightly from "perpendicular to the back wall," an extremely deep center image is created with an amazing "wrap around effect." The tonality of instruments and voices becomes emphasized at the expense of imaging specificity. If you've never listened to your speakers this way (most haven't), then it's worth a try.

2. I've tried several "pro" power amplifiers with my M80s. So far, I'm one for four in the sound quality sweepstakes. The three that were not quite equal to my "normal Emotiva XPA-1L" amplifiers included the Crown PS-400, the Crown XLS-1500, and the Crown XLS-2000. They weren't bad, but the weren't great, either. The standout is the Yamaha P2100 with only 85 WPC. This bad boy makes the M80s sit up & sing! Should you ever find one (they're long discontinued), snap it up.

3. I've tried driving power amplifiers directly from my Oppo BDP-105 and through a preamp (the Emotiva XSP-1, generation 2). Most of the time (but not always) having the preamp in the signal chain improves the sound. Your mileage may vary...

4. I've used the threaded feet on the M80's aluminum spreaders to tilt the speakers slightly back & up so that the drivers are more closely pointed at ear level for the seated listener. I like this effect and will continue to use it.

5. Everyone (EVERYONE) who has seen my speakers loves the finish. I've got a dark wood vinyl with a tan grill. They look significantly different than the majority of speakers on the market with plain black grills. The response from friends and family is an enthusiastic thumbs up. So don't hesitate to go with an unconventional grill color - You'll probably love it.

6. This goes without saying, but just for the record - I pulled my listening chair out about three feet from the back wall and both the bass and the imaging improved by orders of magnitude. I have a sound absorber on the wall behind the listening couch, but the system still sounds better with the listening position away from the wall. I played some songs from Madonna's "Immaculate Collection" CD the other night. The album uses "Q-Sound" coding to create an extended sound stage (and it works). When listening to "Like a Prayer," I heard an effect I'd not heard before - The sound swirls around the room, and appeared to come from BEHIND me. This with only two speakers and conventional stereo amps...

Cheers & Merry Christmas! Boomzilla

#6. I have an L-shaped couch and it sounds much better for the back listening position with the couch pulled out about 3 feet. That also gives me room for more movie shelves and room to walk in. And room for the cat to play in.

And another curious discovery - If I put the listening seat about a third of the way out into the room, the M80s will do very different things! I played "Like a Prayer" from the Madonna "Immaculate Collection" CD, which is recorded in Q-Sound. The music at some points appears to come from BEHIND the listening position! Just to make sure I wasn't hallucinating, I had my friend over to listen also. His comment "That's not supposed to be possible with just two speakers!"

So if you haven't tried Q-sound on your system, there are a number of discs so encoded. Look at the Wikipedia article on Q-sound for a list. The "Amused to Death" CD by Roger Waters is also a good example.

And for those who claim that "surround sound is impossible with only two speakers," all I can say is "just listen!"

I've had similar experiences as well.
Glad to hear you're still enjoying them.
Don't forget you get the best trade up value inside the 1st year. Just saying...

That is the Q Sound processing making that happen, not the M80's.
I have heard similar effects from Q Sound with different speakers.

But glad you are enjoying your setup!

I've always used my M80s with a sub because:

1. I had one, and
2. I figured it couldn't hurt.

However, my room isn't huge, I don't listen at high volumes, and, at least on paper, the -3dB points of the sub & M80s are virtually identical.

That said, my woofers are NOT the "high power" ones. So now to my question - how much (if any) bass will I be "giving up" if I run the M80s "naked?"

Depends on what you're listening to. For most music, you won't really notice a difference. For electronic music or organ music, you'll notice a bit.

You need a better sub.

Unless your music has content below 35 Hz, you will hear no difference at all. I compared the M80s naked to them paired with my ep350 which is -3db @ 20 Hz and could not tell the difference.

Movies, on the other hand, are a night and day difference.

I'm the first to admit that there are others here who are more schooled when it comes to acoustics, but I don't know that the absorptive qualities of clothes....or lack thereof.... factor in too much.

It makes almost as much difference as the levitating cables. Just sayin...

So your saying my cables that are run up on the ceiling aren't helping me. Damn I put a lot of work into that. FWIW I have been told the human body is a huge bass trap, depending on your girth

Well, I added an M-100 to the center of my M80s. I'll report on the effect once I get it all hooked up & calibrated.

It's an unusual setup as the Oppo 105 will be connected directly to the power amps. All distances (phase) and levels will be set by ear using the Oppo's controls. I do have a preamp, but it's analog stereo only. I'll be using its "HT-bypass" mode for movie & surround audio listening.

Very interested in your results. I have pondered using my oppo as a pre processor but noticed it doesnt handle dynamic range settings the same as my avr. Not sure if it was a bug or not, but the avr had better dynamics overall with all settings being equal. So many settings called different things doing the same job.... Hard to do an apples to apples nowadays.

OK - So here's my take on the Axiom VP-100 center speaker.

First, a bit of background: My system consists of an Oppo 105 used as DAC (via DNLA over ethernet) feeding the balanced inputs of a stereo Emotiva XSP-1 (generation 2) preamp. A pair of Emotiva XPA-1L mono block amps feed my Axiom M80 (generation 3.5 - with the new tweeters) front speakers.

When I do movies, though, I use the "HT bypass" inputs on the preamp and route the 5.1 RCA outputs of the Oppo directly to the power amplifiers. I currently use a Yamaha "pro" power amp for the center channel, and a Peavey "pro" power amp (whose fan roars like a 747) for the surround speakers.

Although the front speaker trio is all Axiom (M80 fronts & VP100 center), the surrounds are 12" MTX "Thunder Pro" horn-loaded PA monitors. The subwoofer (used below 80 Hz.) is a PowerSound Audio XV-15.

The room is relatively large. I listen at significantly lower than THX reference levels.

So what of the VP-100? For movies, I find that the thing is absolutely phenomenal! I do not notice any change in timbre when the sound moves from left to right (through the center) across the front. Of course, when surround kicks in, I DO hear the (significantly) different signature of the MTX surrounds, but this isn't about them...

Dialogue is clear, articulate, with no sibilance, and lets you forget the system and immerse yourself in the soundtrack. This is what a center speaker is SUPPOSED to do, but what so many don't. I'm running my M80s in "large" mode, and my VP-100 in "small." When balancing levels by ear using white noise, I can hear slight differences in timbre between the M80s and the VP100, but the difference is small enough that it disappears when the action starts.

I also cranked up the volume just to see if I could get the VP100 to distort or change timbre in any way. The result? No change that I could hear! The little speaker hung together with the big boys with not even a hint of distortion.

Now as to the Oppo being less dynamic than when using a preamplifier, yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I believe that the analog outputs of the Oppo, while nice sounding, do give away the last iota of dynamics. I'm a minimalist at heart, and was reluctant to include a (seemingly unnecessary) preamp in my system. But I must admit that I've been won over. With the Oppo alone driving the power amps (talking of stereo listening here), the sound "flattened out," dynamically as the volume rose. I think that the Oppo was just running out of current trying to drive the power amps, but this is just speculation on my part.

With the preamp in the system, the dynamics are maintained from very soft volumes all the way to louder than I listen. This means that anything I want to hear can "scale" up with the volume and still sound very realistic. So, to my ears, using the Oppo's analog outputs into a preamp is a better choice than using them directly into the power amps.

And to summarize about my VP100, it was an excellent choice, and VERY well worth the money! Now I need to shop some Axiom surrounds! LOL

Boom:

How can that be? I have it an good authority from a recent poster elsewhere that:

'Vp100 is horrible center btw'

I too found that my VP100 did its job exceedingly well, especially considering its small form factor. There were none of the comb filtering/dispersion issues apparent in my room that causes many enthusiasts to set their hair on fire.

When I updated my stand, I traded-up to the VP160 that is simply great as well...

TAM

Thanks for the update on the oppo as preamp processor. I'm not crazy afterall! even I was questioning myself....

I thought the comb filtering thing was more aimed at the VP150/VP180/M80/M100 types. The VP100 is a conventional D'Appolito design.

Eh, whatever.

I am completely unsurprised at your conclusions that a preamp is necessary.

I wouldn't claim that a preamp is necessary - only that it adds a smidgen to the dynamics - particularly at higher listening levels. I originally used my Oppo straight to the power amps and had friends claim it was the "best sound they'd ever heard." Despite that, when the preamp was added, a more dynamic presentation was there - but only noticeable at higher levels.

For example, one of my fave test tracks is "Sing, Sing, Sing" by the BBC Orchestra. Their drumming, in particular, sounds good with the 2.1 system turned up. With the Oppo alone driving the power amps, it sounded like a good recording of drums. With the preamp in the system, though, it sounded like DRUMS! Like, in the room with you and with the impact of a live performance (in a much bigger space). The same was true of the blat of the trombones and the trumpets. Just more verisimilitude at higher levels. At lower levels, the two were comparable.

As to the VP 100 center channel. I'd expect that one's response to it would depend on a number of things:

How large is the room where the speaker is being used? My seating position is no more than 15 feet from the speaker. In a larger room, the small drivers might not be able to play as loudly.

How loudly does the viewer want the soundtrack? I, as mentioned earlier, am not one who rattles the timbers with movies. If someone wanted a much louder presentation, then certainly the drivers of the VP 100 could be driven to distortion.

How particular is one about the center to L/R speaker match? No center speaker (unless it is the same make/model of the sides and in the same orientation (vertical, horizontal) will sound exactly the same. Some, misguided by internet blather, believe that only a PERFECT match will provide an acceptable front soundstage. This is incorrect. Remember that in movies, the R/L front speakers are for effects, only. This means that much of the time, they're silent. A reasonably close match between the three front speakers is sufficient for movies (although maybe less so for SACD surround sound).

These factors, taken together, make the VP 100 a fine choice for my cinema. YMMV.

Boomzilla

Ken:

Over the past couple of years I've read so much elsewhere on CC speakers that accuses even the ubiquitous D'Appolito speakers as being a compromised & poor design - for the reasons mentioned above.

Many people get really anal about this stuff that is largely misguided & overblown IMO...

TAM

Hi Ken -

Yes, people DO get anal about all manner of trivia, particularly on the internet. Folks who are just nice people in real life can become raving lunatics over the smallest thing when strongly contradicted on the internet.

My take - It doesn't really matter. Keep in mind that the "internet expert" on a particular topic may really be a bored 14-year-old boy who's never even heard (much less owned) the product under discussion.

Joe D'Appolito's speaker configuration has its roots in radio antenna design and is scientifically sound. It does direct dispersion more in one axis than the other. Depending on your room, this can be of benefit (or not).

Now that I've become overblown, a good day to youse!

And the more I live with the VP100, the more I like it. I've changed my center channel amplification from independent stereo power amps to the built-in wimpy-amps of a HK AVR. Despite the drop in available power, the centers (and surrounds) continue to provide undiminished pleasure.

It bears repeating that I don't listen loudly on movies, and my room is only moderately large. Therefore, the amps and speakers are taxed far less than they'd be were the venue & preferences otherwise.

In summary, the VP100 is one of the best choices I've made in many decades of audio. It does what it is supposed to, without any fuss or bother, and does so regardless of the modesty of the components feeding it. And besides, it looks nice (real wood finish), and it is modestly enough sized to not overwhelm the front equipment racks.

For anyone wondering if the modest VP100 will be sufficient for their HT needs, allow me to cast my vote in the "YES!" column. Axiom has made intelligent design compromises to the VP100's design that make it one of their best values, IMHO.

Boomzilla

Boom did you confirm, how far do you sit from the VP100?
I had (still do technically) a nice sounding center but needed more power handling once we started sitting further back. That speaker has a sweet spot about 8' from it.
Just curious...

The room is 15 feet wide. The couch puts me about two feet from the back wall, and the VP100 sits about two feet from the front. So I'm about 11 feet from the speaker.

Despite that, I don't listen at very loud levels, so the speaker sounds fine. I've currently got it hooked up to a HK AVR, but haven't tried the setup yet.

The WAF is great on this thing - it isn't huge & looks elegant. I may just have to break down & buy some Axiom surrounds...

And once again, I must beg some advice from the experts here on the Axiom boards:

My current setup will be Axiom M80s (ver. 3.5 - new tweeters, but older mid & bass drivers) with a VP-100 (ver. 4) for my center. Amplification is Emotiva XPA-1L mono blocks for the M80s and part of an Emotiva XPA-3 for the center & surrounds.

Due to the nature of my (dual purpose) listening/audio/movie room, my "surrounds" will be hard in the back corners, and actually to the SIDES of the listeners, not behind them. On the plus side, the rear "corners" actually aren't. One side has an open hallway door on the back wall of the room and the other side has an open stairwell to the second floor on the back wall. This means that the speakers see only two pi placement, not four.

I'm currently using PSB XB4 speakers as "rear" surrounds. My Oppo BDP-105 has these set to "small" mode and all bass below 80 Hz. is sent to the subwoofer.

Now to the question: Do I actually need Axiom surround speakers? If so, which models go the best with my current system? How well will the Axiom surrounds work with the placement limitations?

Thanks - Boomzilla

The placement of the speakers sounds to be in the correct place. They should be to the sides and slightly behind of your seating position.

In a very well mixed 5.1 track, the directionality of the PSB speakers will not be noticed. Personally i found myself that I there are movies that I enjoyed where the ambient effect was not so ambient because the direct sound of one of my surround speakers did not match the sound that it was portraying. Did it ruin the movie? No.

The QS speakers by their design fire non direct. They send the sound out in a larger pattern and you tend to hear it as an 'all around you' type of sound. This is how the movies were like in the pre ATMOS sound system days.

An example.. one of my favourite movies was Big Trouble where they are at an airport and a large 747 flies overhead. If I am sitting in the left hand seat with directional speakers, the plane that should be directly overhead isn't because the sound from the left hand speaker is louder than the sound coming out of the right as your proximity to the speaker. However with the QS speakers, the sound is like the whole room and as the plane comes overhead and into the screen view and the sound moves to the front speakers, you get the feeling it was directly overhead.

I know that you would think that the sound should be just part of a Sub, but it isn't.

For some, the fine detail like this just doesn't matter. In respect to most films the direct sound can be forgiven. For me as I was buying all new speakers I went with the QS8 and really did enjoy them.. I am in the middle of rebuilding a permanent sound room and eagerly await to hear them to their full potential. But it comes down to that point of diminishing return. As you have said.. you really like your VP100 center channel speaker. Would a VP160 or VP180 sound better? Perhaps but the cost vs improvement might not be worth it for you.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, Matt -

For the (low) volume that we listen at, and for the (small to medium) size room we have, I think that the VP100 is perfect. I've previously owned a VP160, and didn't find it as close a match to my M80s as the new VP100.

I find your info on dispersed surround sound most interesting. Could I achieve the same thing by pointing my current surrounds up (toward the ceiling) or backwards (toward reflecting side walls)? If so, then why bother with the QS speakers?

Thanks - Boom

Boom, they don't give precisely the same dispersion effect as do the QSs, but placing direct radiating speakers such as your PSBs so as to not point directly at the listeners can be effective. Try them placed directly to the side of the listeners but pointed backwards at various angles to increase the proportion of reflected sound.

The side of a Di-Polar is that sound is coming from multiple directions at once where your thought to taking a direct radiating speaker and reflecting it off the wall is still only a single source being bounced. take a look at Dipolar Confusion It was a very interesting read and I think it still holds very true today even in the 7.1 relm where I would put up heights on the front over surround rear speakers behind me.

OK - DSPeaker Cinema 8033 "Anti-Mode" first impressions:

I plugged the little box in between my preamp's sub output and my vented 15" subwoofer. I set the calibration microphone atop a tripod at the listening couch at the same height & distance from the back wall as my head would be while listening. I started the "calibration" sequence and my wife INSTANTLY demanded to know what I was doing! The subsonic rumble did shake the house a bit... After explaining that the noise was temporary, I closed the door to the room where she was to minimize her discomfort. The thing cycles four times before calibration is complete.

After calibration, I put on the usual suspects (Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor, etc.). Not much difference. I tried the box's equalization (15 to 25 Hz boost or 25 to 35 Hz boost) and neither made any significant difference.

I left it on 25 to 35 & tried some "normal" music. Now I DID hear differences. They came in several different aspects:

1. Bass notes start & stop more quickly. I've always had plenty of bass with this sub, but although the drums & bass notes had plenty of "whomp," they didn't start or stop very abruptly. Leading edges were blurred, and when the notes stopped, there was significant decay time. Don't get me wrong - it sounded good, but not as "live" as the rest of the spectrum. With the box in the signal chain, bass is significantly "dryer." The midrange transient of the drumstick hitting the drum skin or the transient of the pick/thumb on the bass string is now more noticeable at the start of a bass transient. Similarly, when the note stops, the decay is not as long. This robs some of the "bloom" effect, but it seems more accurate to my ears.

2. Bass notes now have better tone: Before the box, there was plenty of bass, but unless a note was sustained, there was some difficulty in appreciating the actual pitch of the note. This is an exaggeration, but I don't quite know how else to describe it. With the box in the signal chain, one can (far) more easily follow the bass lines and their counterpoint with the rest of the music. I played some Glenn Miller and was instantly aware of how the bass notes actually played a clever counterpoint to the main melody. Without the box, this counterpoint was more "suggested" than "explicit." With the box in the system, the pitch of each bass note or of each drum is more discreet and easily discernible.

3. Midrange is more dynamic: This I seriously didn't expect! But without the former "mud" in the bass, the midrange seems to have significantly better "jump factor." I listened for a couple of hours to a wide variety of music (everything from Dash-Rip-Rock to Jennifer Warnes to Big Luther Kent to Itzhak Perlman) and the midrange was strikingly different than what I've previously heard. Note that the box does NOT affect the main speakers AT ALL - It is inserted only between the preamp sub-out and the subwoofer's input jack. Nevertheless, the acoustic benefits to the midrange were perhaps more striking to me than the benefits to the bass.

So to summarize - I knew that I had an excellent sub, but I never realized HOW excellent until the box tamed the room resonances (which I wasn't even aware of until they were gone). The box may not make as big a difference as a new pair of main speakers, but it's definitely more difference than a replacement pair of amplifiers. I think it's a keeper.

Keep in mind that these are very initial impressions, and that some experimentation with box equalization (flat - 15 to 25 boost - 25 to 35 boost) may make some additional difference. I give the box a "thumbs up" and encourage any who may be considering it to give it a shot. For the $$ spent, it makes a big difference.

Boomzilla

PS - The Anti-Mode 8033 has done things that neither Emo-Q nor Yamaha's "YPAO" correction accomplished in my room. I don't know whether this is because the 8033 is subwoofer-specific or not, but it is FAR more successful (to my ears) than any "generic" room correction that I've previously heard. Note that I have NOT heard Dirac, and therefore can't comment on it.

Can you pretty please take measurements before and after? How does it work? Does it find the standing wave fundamental frequency and reduce its level while reinforcing its harmonics to give you better perceived notes without the standing wave pattern? Does it mute the fundamental altogether? What does a sweep sound like? Sounds very cool.

Oh the questions.

The 8033 user's manual doesn't go into very great detail about how it works. From what I've read online, it attenuates the peak frequency (one or more?) without doing any valley boosting. Therefore, the overall effect is to reduce the signal strength (across the sub's spectrum). To compensate, you may have to slightly increase the sub's volume to balance the "corrected" sub with the main speakers.

You have the choice of equalizing a specific "sweet spot" (what I did) or running multiple calibrations across a wider area & letting the box average them.

Alas, I have no spectrum analyzer other than my iPhone, which is notoriously uneven in the deep bass. There should be a plethora of good information (and professional reviews) of the 8033 around on the internet. Feel free to investigate. My comments are but my own (very initial) impressions.

I must agree with you, though, this device does sound VERY cool!

I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the speedy reply! In theory, if you have a problem centered on 60hz room treatments and seating position is the only cure. This device has me curious what tricks they employ to acheive near flat response without losing too much sub headroom. They gotta be masking the fundamental standing frequency somehow. How they replace it has me baffled. The device does apparently introduce sub audio lag. Have you noticed this?

No lag that I can tell. I could easily adjust via the "phase" dial on the sub if needed, but the easiest way (for movies) is to add a foot of distance to the sub from the listener electronically. This would force my Oppo to delay the other channels by an equivalent time to keep the whole thing in phase.

As to "replacing" a peak, that's NOT what the 8033 does. It instead reduces the amplitude of the peak to match the mean (average) volume. Note that valleys are NOT boosted to the mean - this would require LOTS more power from the sub amp (possibly clipping the amp and damaging the sub). So any valleys in the response are left alone. Only peaks are attenuated.

You'd think that this would be only "half-effective," but the actual result is significant. I was contemplating an additional subwoofer to smooth my response (and may yet go that route), but the 8033 alone has improved the bass so much that I plan to live with this for awhile before spending another thin dime. The 8033 is that good.

I'd also say that my room is MUCH better than average for bass to start with. It's a large room with a "vent" in all four corners to other areas of the house (hallway, foyer, stairwell, and large opening to another room). Therefore, the room was "non-boomy" by design. Nevertheless, the 8033 made a huge difference for me. If it helped MY room that much, I'd think it would be even more effective for rooms with corner problems.

I'd also contend that you don't lose sub "headroom" by attenuating acoustic peaks. The sub placement and the room already add huge (but frequency-specific) efficiency at the peaks. Therefore, if the sub amp must play at 50 watts of output at 40 Hz, the equal-amplitude output at a 60 Hz peak may require only 5 watts. By amplitude-equalizing the peaks, the sub's amp actually works less hard to maintain a flat response. So if you want to think of it that way, you actually GAIN headroom by attenuating room peaks.

Cheers - Boom

I'm replying just to keep you talking now. Excellent information Boom.

When you say reducing peak frequency are you meaning bumps in the in room response? (like 20db spikes or so?). I know one method is to reduce the ouptut at those peaks to reduce the significance if the null vs the mean. But increasing the sub gain to compensate usually just reinforces the null.

My fascination is how the standing frequency, the one responsible for the massive null in most rooms, is handled. This is dimension and placement dependant. No matter how much power you apply to a standing frequency the null will never be filled. This is why I speculate it must be masked out and replaced by some blending of harmonics and perhaps time (phase) shifting.

At both AVS and Hometheatershack, they have tested and shown before and after graphs. Quite impressive. The fellow behind REW ran some tests and it seems like a very good sub "set it and forget it" device. When he's impressed, its the real deal.

Nope - the 8033 does NOT "mask" or "fill" any nulls in the frequency response. As you say, "No matter how much power you apply...the null will never be filled." You are exactly correct. The 8033, therefore, does not even attempt to fill any nulls.

However, "for every null, there is a peak." The 8033 DOES attenuate these peaks to the average SPL. The equalizer must be variable in both amplitude and frequency-range to do so. Some peaks will be broad & shallow - others narrow & steep. The 8033 adapts, apparently, to both, and thus, must be parametric in nature.

I agree with AVS & Hometheatershack in their evaluations. This is the most effective EQ I've ever heard for bass. The "set it and forget it" nature is also appealing - especially since it's so accurate.

Fun, fun, fun!

I am with you Boomzilla the 8033 is a great little unit,I use one in my bedroom with a pair of 8" Yamaha subs and it does wonders. The bass is much tighter = less boomy. In my main room I have a XMC-1 from Emotiva with Dirac and use a Minidsp for phase alignment. Something I have found is that using dual subs that are not positioned correctly can have all kinds of phase issue, in the end I put one at the front right and one at the front left. May build a pair of 18's this summer.

And I ordered a second subwoofer yesterday. I plan to leave the first of the two in the front left corner, and to place the second against the front wall about four or five feet from the first. I'll then run the 8033 calibration again & see what I get.

I hope this wasn't a waste of money, but I do have 30 days to return the sub if I doesn't work out. With the second sub providing headroom, I plan to use the 25 Hz. EQ on the 8033 for a tad more extension.

I'll report on the results.

OK - The second sub is installed, calibrated, and working. Initial impressions = yawn.

Did I really spend $700 for THIS? Actually, I think that the single sub in the corner sounded better than the two of them along the equipment wall.

Potential issues: The subs may do better closer together OR the subs may do better in the same corner?

Here's what I've got at the moment:



Don't get me wrong - the pair of subs are better than a single sub in the corner (without DSP). But the single sub in the corner WITH DSP sounded every bit as good as the two subs currently do with DSP.

I think that my next move will be to put the pair of them in the corner.

If that doesn't work, then it's time to call the vendor & ask for their assistance, but I'm hoping that youse guys can pitch some good advice my way?

Thanks in advance - Boom

Boom, did you check the phasing between the 2 subs.
from 0 to 180 degrees, there could be a difference in total output of 6 dB or more.
if i remember right, this is done before syst. calibration, using a SPL meter at the MLP, (right between the 2 ears).

There is a pretty good chance there's a better spot in the room for them....
It might be awkward and it might not look that great but moving each sub to its sweet spot in the room will (regardless of the sub) satisfy your need. 2 good subs playing nice together should be felt more than heard. Your smile will hurt, then you know.

Room lock rulez!

Well, I tried putting one in the left front corner, and the other on the front wall about 5 feet from the same corner. Calibrated with 8033. Result = Yawn again...

So just for giggles, I moved them back to positions equidistant from the listening position, but now inboard of the main speakers. I haven't recalibrated with the 8033 yet, but initial impressions = WOW!

Now the rig is cooking! I have a second 8033 on the way, and I plan to run them in stereo with each channel independently equalized.

The most interesting thing is that when the audio program has no low bass, you'd never know that the subs were there at all. But when the drums kick in, now they sound like DRUMS. I put some Mickey Hart on and that big drum does sound big!

I always check phase before doing ANY listening.

So has anyone here tried Hegel amplifiers with their Axiom speakers? It should seem that they'd be a fair match. I'll soon be trying the Hegel H80 with my M80s & we'll see how they go...

Boom

Hegel H80 with my Axiom M80s = No.

And what makes the Hegel H80 not like your Axiom speakers?

comments:

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/43348/initial-comments-hegel-integrated-amplifier

So best sound to date with my Axiom M80s =

Two subwoofers crossed over at about 50 Hz.
Emotiva XPA-1L mono amplifiers (but run in class A/B)
Oppo BDP-105 DAC used with DNLA streaming over ethernet

THIS setup makes the M80s sit up & sing! It also adds what sounds like an extra octave of very, very low bass to the presentation without thickening the crossover frequency or the octave above.

I heard a rig yesterday that cost 3x what mine did, and mine sounded better! The M80s are just flat out amazing speakers!

Now I want imaging like a pair of KEF LS50s from my Axiom M80s. I'm assuming that wider speaker placement and more clearance from all walls would be a starting place?

And I'd like my Ford Edge to accelerate like a Tesla , corner like Ferrari, top speed like a Bugatti Veyron and fuel economy like a Toyota Prius. I'm not asking for much as i?

I just want to be zapped from place to place instantly.



Can you imagine what that would do to the lines at the world's best breweries, though?

Put Tom at the head of each line?

It already exists. It's called a stun gun. It can zap you here or there, or anywhere. And yeah, it'd be EXCELLENT for brewery lines; all lines, really.

The reason minimonitors remain relevant (even in the market where towers dominate) is their ability to dissapear and provide a stunning soundstage. This is an easier feat for them as they usually have smaller drivers and do not load the room as towers can. This means timing cues and the usual bump around 2khz fool us into thinking the speakers image better than towers. They just dont interact with the room as much, so we can pick up on important spatial cues.

I think from memory your room is pretty well treated. I would try the cold, hard, dry, math method and see where it gets you.

Here is where you can find an explanation on how, if you wanna try it. Too lazy to write another post explaining.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/413973/Speaker_Placement#Post413973

The system is starting to "bloom" with the addition of a second subwoofer. The bass has evened out & the "slam" is still there. Proof of success? My wife now sits beside me on the couch to listen frequently! (Of course, it helps that I bribe her with a back-scratch while she does).

I've been having friends and neighbors drop by to hear the system. Most have commented that it's the best they've heard. They also ask about the Axiom M80s...

For movies, I'm using the Axiom 100 center which works well with the M80s for the front. The rears & sides are a combination of Infinity & Klipsch products (whatever I could find at yard sales...). But the thing that most comment the most about for movies is the picture. My Epson 1050e projector (calibrated with Spears & Muncil disc) shows the value of a high-contrast screen! Most have commented that the video is "as good as or better than the local iMax." I'll take that as high praise.

Right now, I'm using a Yamaha RX-A3050 receiver. For movies, it's awesome, but for 2.2 stereo, the analog rig works better. My buddy keeps trying to persuade me to return to an analog front end, but I'm addicted to the convenience of streaming (JRiver via DNLA & Tidal via the Oppo app).

So now to the big question... Christmas is coming. Since I already run dual subwoofers below 60 Hz., is there any potential benefit to going from my M80s to a pair of M100s?

Obviously, the M100s will have more ultimate volume capability, but I don't play loudly anyway & am questioning whether there's any "better" to be had. My audio BFF says that the M80s, for my room & my use, are already "ultimates."

Your opinions?

Thanks - Boomzilla

If it can be accommodated, I would be looking to upgrade the center speaker.

I agree with Mark. As long as you are listening with subs in the mix, you will not hear any difference. With most music, I can't tell the difference between the M80s on their own and the M80 + sub.

Another vote to the center channel.
As you already have enough power to even phantom over your Vp100
with the 80s. Get something with enough force to stand up with them.
I my self have a VP160 paired with my M80s.
The first thought I had when hooked up the Vp160 was HOLY the sound stage was huge. Though I went from a klipsch C20 from 2012
before I even knew of Axiom, the difference was huge.

Thanks, amigos! May I address the two issues separately:

As to the "can't tell the difference between the M80s on their own and the M80 + sub," my experience is the polar opposite. In my (relatively large) room, the first 15" sub made a "night-and-day" difference in bass. Although the M80s would go to 32 Hz, they couldn't energize the room at that frequency. In short, they lacked authority. Adding the sub made the bass sound far more "real." Adding a second sub smoothed the response and made the bass sound even more natural.

I don't listen loudly, so it wasn't an issue of "more" bass. Instead, it was an issue of control and veracity. The subs DEFINITELY add lots to my M80s.

As to the center being "insufficient," I've actually HAD the VP-160 in my system. It wasn't bad, but for some reason the little VP-100 seems to match the voicing of my M80s better in my room. Perhaps it's because I DON'T listen loudly, but dialogue is clearer and the pans during movies seem smoother with the little VP-100. Go figure...

In many rooms, and/or at higher volumes, the bigger center channel might be the way to go, but for my room, the smaller speaker is the better fit.

Boomzilla

I would guess that goes back to every room being different because of the way sound interacts with it. Did you ever do measurements of your room with and without the sub? I wonder if you had some suck-outs that were mitigated by adding the subs?

My room is also a concrete bunker, so I would have no or little bass/mid bass loss through the walls. I was very surprised when I first did the comparison.

I'd like to go subless. My current M80s (no high-powered woofers) don't have enough output for my room (close, but no cigar). I'm thinking of trading them in for M100s. With three rather than two woofers, and with the long-throw, high-power ones, should I be able to energize the room adequately with the larger speakers?

Things to keep in mind -

I don't want 20 Hz. I'm perfectly happy with an honest 30. My wife doesn't like (at all) having her diaphragm doing the watusi along with the organ pedals, so I'm not into deep extension.

I don't play loudly. My loudest listening level is in the low 90 dB range. And that's on a rowdy day.

My room isn't huge - 15 x 26 feet.

I'm currently using a pair of PowerSound Audio XV-15s. They add significantly to the sound, but I'm thinking that it isn't bass volume, but rather bass cone-area that makes them "authoritative" in the room. The naked M80s sound smooth and well balanced, but they don't do bass imaging like the M80s with the subs.

Before you say the obvious, yes, I know that bass isn't audibly directional. But the mid-bass clues from the M80s "steer" the mind into thinking that the bass is left or right channel rather than monophonic. I know this to be true because the placement of my subs seems to matter little. I get just as good a bass energization of the room whether the subs are placed separately or stacked in the corner. Either way, it sounds like stereo bass.

So what's the consensus - Will M100s benefit me or am I wasting money needlessly?

Thanks - Boomzilla (moniker NOT indicative of listening preference)

It would stand to reason that more drivers will result in more bass. My room is 12 x 24 roughly and when I play my M80's with an sacd I have to check my subs because it sounds like they are playing. I have my M80's backed pretty close to the wall and equidistant from the corners and they lay down some damn good bass.From everything I have read the M100's really pound out the bass. Craig should be able to answer this for you easily. I think the M100's will be as close to a sub that you can come without actually having a sub. Are you using an external amp with your M80s ,I ask because I am and it made a big difference over just my Denon 3311 receiver.

Richard

This is a tough question you are asking Boom.
You don't want bass extension yet you find that the subwoofer does add prominence to the sound (and it likely will).
We are talking basic physics.
More drivers, equals more air movement, equals more bass. Larger driver (typical on subwoofers) equals more bass more easily (with less power).

Frankly, you sound like you want to get rid of the sub and go with a single speaker set. If that is your intent then yes, go with M100s to maximize the bass output as you can.
However if you are on the fence about whether you will 'lose' something by getting rid of the subwoofer, you are correct.
You will lose low end bass extension and the ability to create bass with less power.

You don't need to have your subwoofer turned up to the point where the wife thinks she's having another child. If dialed in correctly at an appropriate SPL for your preference, you can keep the M80s and have a great sound reproduction to your liking.
If as mentioned you are intent on getting rid of the sub though, for either aesthetic or other reasons, then sure, consider the M100s as an alternative to "try" and maintain as much bass as possible.

Just fyi, 90dB is pretty damn loud.
I would recommend a sub in these conditions.

Thanks, guys - You are right - I want to lose the two subs. The M80s almost (really, almost!) provide enough bass, and with the additional long-throw, high-powered woofers of the M-100, I'm thinking that I can lose the subs without giving up anything.

You're right - 90 dB IS loud, and I don't often play at that level.

In my case, the anechoic -3dB point of my subwoofers is identical to the -3dB anechoic point of my M80s (31 Hz). The subs do NOT add extension. Only air.

So M-100s are in the future. I emailed Axiom about the trade of my M80s AND my 100 center channel. I haven't heard back from them yet. Any idea why?

One additional question - I bought my M80s with outriggers. Will the same outriggers fit my new M100s, or are those different outriggers?

Boom:

Did you go thru the 'Trade-Up' link on the Home Page? From what I remember, you plug in your M80s info it should come up with a price difference right away - no email involved, at least initially...

TAM

I can only "trade up" from a single Axiom product on the web page. I need to trade up from two - My M80s & VP-100.

Boom, I think you'd be best giving Axiom a call directly.

Thanks Adrian -

You're EXACTLY right. Ms. Debbie of Axiom took my call, quoted me trade-in prices for all three speakers, and quoted me the difference on the spot. I paid immediately, and my M100s should be on the way! Now I've got to go scrounge in the attic for the original boxes so I can return my speakers.

By the way, Debbie was a pleasure to deal with and exceptionally patient with me. She deserves a raise!

Returns are shipped!

And by the bye - has anyone else tried the Yaqin VK-2100 with their Axioms? This is a cheap Chinese hybrid integrated with a tube preamp wedded to a chip-based, solid-state output module. 85 WPC at 8 ohms (probably all of 90 at 4 ohms, LOL) with no remote control. Nevertheless, the Yaq moves some of the best sound I've heard out of my M-80s.

The tubes bring out the best in the tweeters, the soundstage is broad & deep, and the Yaq has surprising bass! To get these results, you'll need to dance your speakers about until you find the right spot, though.

Even so, for its price, the Yaqin is one of the better matches I've heard for my Axioms. (and before anyone asks, no, I haven't heard the Axiom amps).

Boom

Here is my Yaquin Tube Amp/Axiom story with pics throughout:

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthr...aven#Post371303

http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/home-theater-pictures/nggallery/wall-o-fame/toms-vintage-ax2s

The main difference with my system now is an additional EP400. So now I run the Tube Amp/Denon SACD Player at 30W/CH in Trilinear Mode with 2 X M2s & 2 X EP 400s fed to the speakers from the Amp Speakers Out terminals. Even at only 30W/CH there is lots of power as the subs at 500W/CH provide the heavy lifting.

This system is easily as good if not better than anything that I auditioned in our local stores; however, a bit of heresy here - after a couple of years of listening, I don't hear a lot of (if any) difference in my Tube Amp as compared to SS Amps. But it is sure cool to have it softly glowing in a darkened room on a cold winter's night...

TAM

How interesting, exlabdrver -

Our tube experiences diverge. I once had a Rogue Audio Magnum 88 integrated amp that was highly reviewed and could be operated in triode or ultra linear modes. I hooked it up to my Axioms, and it just didn't perform. Neither mode.

It sounded flat, non-dimensional, and un-dynamic with my M80s. I sold it.

The Yaqin VK-2100 that I now have uses a tube preamp stage and some cheap chip SS output amps. There's nothing of particular distinction about the thing, yet...

The M-80s just LOVED the thing! Broader and deeper sound stage, tighter and fuller bass, and jump-out-of-the-soundstage treble! Why? I don't know. Maybe fortuitous circumstance, maybe the planets aligned, maybe Cindy Crawford blew in my ear. Whatever, the match was the best I've heard!

Tube power amps with transformer outputs (based on the Rogue) just didn't like my Axiom speakers. Apparently, I'm the only one with this experience, so maybe the Rogue was damaged, but I really don't think so. I had it tested by a local shop & they said that everything was working, in spec, and with no obvious problems.

Nevertheless, the hybrid Yaqin runs rings around the Rogue, and competes head-to-head with my Emotiva XSP-1 and XPA-1L solid state, mono-block rig. The Emo has some strengths (cleaner in the midrange, more neutral), but the $300 Yaqin owns the treble, the bass, and the sound stage.

As of right now, my M-80s are on the way back to Canada, and a day or two after Christmas, I should receive my new M-100s. We'll see what the Yaqin can do with them...

I looked at getting the VK-2100 when the MC-100B came my way via ebay. Interestingly, your Rogue & my Yaquin were both KT88 equipped amps.

I've been really happy with this setup; however, I attribute much of its strengths are due to the power, dynamics & fine articulation of the twin EP-400s. They are quite spectacular for music & the M2s just play happily & accurately along...

TAM

I'm very happy that your amps do what they do for you. I wish mine had done the same. Alas, it wasn't meant to be.

As well as my Yaqin does with the M-80s, I'm eager to see what it can do with the M-100s. I'll write about it after I listen.

Thanks for taking time to chat with me & Merry Christmas to you & yours!

Boomzilla

What was that about Cindy Crawford???

Who cares! LOL

So currently, I'm fighting the Axiom website - It won't let me log into my account to track my speaker order. I hit the "forgot my password" button, and the site sent me a password. But that one doesn't work either - Just kicks me off with a "incorrect password - try again" message. I've called them, but in the middle of Christmas week...

I'm hoping my speakers are already on the way, but have no way to know.

I too made the mistake of ordering my M80's in December , one speaker made it the other one was shanghaied in Whitecourt . Hang in there , they will be there.

The only reason I'm trying to look was that the website claimed speakers ordered by the 15th would be delivered by the 24th. THAT would be a gift from Santa, but I'm not optimistic. Before New Years would be sufficient, but I have no way of knowing. Axiom's working on it for me, trying to fix my password. Maybe tomorrow...

Try clearing your browser cookies....worked for me recently

OK, all I can think of when I see the truncated title of this thread is that Pinocchio line from the second Schrek movie. "I'm a real boy!... Oh crap."

Oh well...

Bah - Humbug! Despite being ordered on December 15, it appears that my speakers haven't even shipped YET (no tracking info on the Axiom site). Had I known it was available at the time of order, I'd have paid extra for expedited shipping.

Oh well...

I would take the not tracking number with a grain of salt. Admittedly I live quite close to Axiom, but when I ordered my subs, they showed up 3 days before they shipped if you went by when the tracking number was sent to me. I think they put their effort into getting the product out the door rather than producing tracking slips that tell you a tracking slip has been made and will ship at some point.

Thanks, oakvillematt - I'm hoping...

It'll be worth the wait...

Well, I've discovered why my speakers aren't here yet. Had I ordered the "standard" M100s in either Cherry or black ash wrap, the speakers could have been shipped immediately, and I've have received them by now. Instead, I customized my order, so it had to go to the back of the line to be custom-built. The custom-build delay is 10 days, the shipping time probably an additional 10. So assuming that the extra holiday delays aren't excessive, they should be able to ship (maybe) before the end of this year, and by about the 10th of January, they should be here. Oh well...

It's always nice to have something that is built solely for you.

Last year at this time I had ordered my M22V4s in HG Rosewood Veneer & it took over 2 months - 1 month is normal for HG wood finishes due to the many coats of hand rubbed lacquer that are required to properly cure. Unfortunately, last winter was so cold (unlike this year) that it created havoc with Axiom's paint booth hence the slow progress.

They certainly were well worth the wait though...

TAM

Tam is totally correct. Even a mild day in the summertime can slow the veneer process a lot. The glue doesn't cure as fast and the clear coat takes forever even on cool summer days. I waited patiently for some sunny days to get the best hardening times. There is a lot of time and effort involved with veneer , and more so when its going to a customer who is going to inspect every surface for a mistake. Mine look great at up to 6" but would fail a customers inspection.

Boom , I was hoping to hear your impressions of the M100 so I too must endure the wait so we will wait together. Since our sonic memory is not very good its a shame the transition could not have been quicker. Alas this is a first world problem so enjoy the more important things in life like time with the family during the holiday season.

Mine are vinyl, but "custom" maple vinyl rather than the default cherry/black-ash. I've owned real wood Axioms & vinyl Axioms. The real wood IS nicer, but at this time, just wasn't worth the extra money for me. My piggy bank was stretched to the limit just to get the M100s anyway, and it wouldn't have been possible at all except for Axiom's generous trade-in allowance. And by the way, if anyone's looking for some ABSOLUTELY PERFECT M80s at a great price, keep an eye on the Deals section of the website for a pair of M80s in Russian Maple vinyl with light tan grills. Those were probably mine. Mine were NEVER abused, and are as "like new" as you could possibly find.

Merry Christmas!

So assuming a medium-sized room (18 x 34 feet) and lower listening levels (never above 90 dB) how much power does one need for the M100s? Or to phrase it differently, how little power can one get by with?

With an (honest?) efficiency rating of 88 dB (1 w / 1 m), and a listening position approximately 3 meters away, the 1 watt SPL should be ~81 dB. (-6 dB for every doubling of distance - so 88 at one meter, 82 at two meters, and 76 at four meters).

So doubling the power for every three dB increase, to get 90 dB at the listening position, I'd need 8 watts of amplifier power (81 = 1W / 84 = 2W / 87 = 4W / 90 = 8W).

Now for SPLs > 90dB, the power requirements increase by a LOT -
93 dB = 16W
96 dB = 32W
99 dB = 64W
102 dB = 128W
105 dB = 256W
etc.

So my conclusion here is that any 50W amplifier (into four ohms) should be more than sufficient for my needs.

Is this correct?

What I don't understand in the equation given is how the efficiency rating is gotten. I know it's a number published by Axiom, but how did they come up with this number. is it from an average of power required to generate pink noise, or is there a real life side to this?

I ask as I am sure that the power levels needed to get the amount of sound level you desire is also influenced by what you are listening to. The amount of power to drive a tweeter is a small fraction of the amount of power needed to drive the 6.5" long throw woofer.

I would expect that you might be pulling far more power listening to a bass heavy rave club track at 90db over listening to a flute concerto in D major. All things being equal need not apply hear.

The manufacturer's specifications actually DO come from industry standards. Loudspeakers are measured at their centers (physical height/2 and physical width/2) from a distance of one meter. A voltage is delivered to the speaker (using white noise, 20 to 20K Hz. if I remember right) equivalent to one watt. The actual voltage necessary for one watt varies with the speaker impedance due to Ohm's law. The calibrated SPL meter averages the decibel count at one watt / one meter, and that number becomes the published efficiency of the speaker. These measurements are taken in an anechoic chamber and are devoid of room reinforcement.

Common speaker outputs range from 80 dB (highly inefficient speakers) to 104 dB (Klipschorn). The rest (outputs at different distances and outputs at different wattages) are just plain physics.

Given that is how they get that number. But I guess my question is how relevant is that number?

The point that I was making was along the line of I would need far more power if I wanted to listen to deep bass house music than the number they published.

Matt you are absolutely correct and there is plenty of info available on this subject. Since this test is done with a single frequency at a specified level (1 watt ) at a specific distance
(1 meter) it doesn't really reveal the speakers true identity since the impedance changes with frequency which draws more current as the impedance drops. Pulling more current than the amplifier can supply will clip the signal with varying degrees of change to the music . The only way to know if Boom's receiver will do the job is to wait and see when he gets the new speakers.

To add to this, the furnishings and overall room absorbtion, will decrease the efficeiency of the system's output. Plan on losing 3-5db of headroom to acheive the same reference level in a bare vs a treated room. This is especially true if the early reflection points are treated with absorbtion.

Well I did get a little bit lost as a few pages back he was talking about an amp with 85wpc where in the last post he stated 50wpc. There is quite a bit of difference between the two.

But glad that Socketman cleared it up for me. I just wanted to make sure that I understood things too.

I don't know what db level that I like to play at, but when I moved my speakers from the Anthem 170w@8ohms to the smaller Amp/OneA 80w@8ohms, I did think the sound degraded on the lower end with my LFR's. I know that they do need a bigger amp to run them when you turn the sound up to a reasonable level. Will have to see if I can figure out the db on them with my ipad.

The value of having all speakers tested identically is that one can accurately evaluate the RELATIVE efficiencies of two pairs (or more) of different speakers. Regardless of what the impedance does, regardless of what room they're in, a speaker with an anechoic sensitivity higher by 3 dB or more than another indicates that (ultimately) the higher sensitivity speaker takes fewer watts to drive.

Depending on how loudly you want to listen, depending on how large your room is, and depending on how much amplifier power you can afford, knowing the speakers' sensitivity is a valuable thing.

It would be impossible to compare speakers efficiencies were not the test conditions standardized.

I am certainly no expert and I believe axiom to be a standup company but , IMHO the sensitivity spec should be accompanied by the frequency at which the measurement was taken. Lower frequencies require greater power as does lower impedance and these are considerations that should be examined when buying amp power.

I know I will offend someone who believes differently than I do , but I can say that buying my XPA 5 was the best thing to ever happen to my M80's. It was not about being louder it just made the sound seem less strained.

Boom. I don't think that anyone is doubting that having a basis to test against is not important. I think what is trying to be said is that sensitivity number is just a delta number to start with.

The problem with just using that number is it doesn't tell you quite enough about how the speaker will perform in real life as it's only a single point measurement.

In your case, you are going from an M80 to the M100 and the general impedance between the two speakers are similar if not better for you with the new speaker.

if the sound limitation you were getting with the M80 was due to the amp simply running out of power to drive the large woofers rather than a limitation of the amount of surface area of the drivers themselves, then your sound requirements wont be met with the new speaker.

This is where the devils advocate pointers come into play with pointing out that if you are looking to play music with mostly deep bass then your power requirements will be substantially more than the calculations that you gave,

Hi Socketman & Oakvillematt - I agree with you both.

Axiom is a stand-up company.
Emotiva makes excellent amps.
A sensitivity number is never enough to tell you how speakers will sound.

However, the "sound limitation" I was getting with my M80s wasn't due to lack of power.
I ran my M80s with a Crown XLS-1500 (525 watts / channel @ 4 ohms)
I ran my M80s with an Emotiva XPA-1L pair of mono blocks (500 watts @ 4 ohms)
I ran my M80s with bridged Crown PS-400s (~1,000 watts @ 4 ohms)

With all of these amps, the speakers sounded slightly bass-shy in my room. When I paired them with one and then two subwoofers, however, the sound became more balanced.

I'm NOT a bass freak. I don't like boom-box sound (despite my moniker). But cone area and bass distortion matter. The Axioms (M-80s and M-100s, both) still use relatively small drivers. That means that to produce bass volume, the drivers must use more excursion, thus increasing transient intermodulation distortion.

Mr. Colquhoun, being aware of this, introduced the three M-100 woofers with larger magnets, cast baskets, and greater excursion than his previous woofers. The greater cone area (from the extra woofer) reduces TIM, and the greater excursion allows higher volumes (although with a necessary return of some TIM).

How successful will this strategy be? Watch for my review on the Secrets of Home Theater & High Fidelity website.

That is, if I ever get the speakers! LOL The order was placed Dec. 15th, but my account page shows no shipping date or tracking number yet...

But ultimately, bass is bass, and there's no substitute for driver area (unless one uses a bass horn, as does the legendary Klipschorn). Knowing this, Axiom provides a full line of large-cone-area subwoofers. But I'm trying to avoid subs for WAF reasons. Will the M-100s provide sufficiently plentiful (and sufficiently clean) bass that I can dispatch the subs to the local CraigsList? Stay tuned...

Sounds to me like you have done due diligence and hopefully that 50 watts will be enough for the extra driver and extra excursion. When I play dire straits sacd which doesn't use a sub it sounded like I had the sub on and actually had to check cause I know sacd doesn't use the sub. Hopefully you will get them suckers soon and all will be revealed. As for WAF sounds like you should be angling for a dedicated room. but honey that way you wont have to put up with all my gear.:)

If your only concern is will the M100 give you a measurable increase in the lower spectrum, then you need not worry. I ran my LFRs alone for quite some time and only recently put in some EP500s. For the most part the increase in sound isn't that noticeable except in music that actually gets down sub 40hz that you hear any improvement from subs being on.

You do with some classical pieces and a bit more warmer glow to Holly Cole.

Thanks, Gents - In my current home, a dedicated listening room just won't work. Next house...

As for LOW bass - again, not an issue. My wife is averse to having her innards jiggled by sounds she can't hear. So the 31 Hz cutoff of the Axiom towers is perfectly sufficient. I've owned subs that went down below 20 Hz (including the Definitive Technology Trinity), and they weren't well received by her.

My current subs (PowerSound Audio XV-15s) go no lower in frequency than the main Axiom speakers, but with two 15" cones, they do so with significantly lower distortion and with more authority than the two small woofers of each M80.

Again, I'm eagerly awaiting the opportunity to hear for myself.

Happy New Year! Boom

Geez - These dudes are KILLING me! LOL - no shipping # yet!

I wonder if I called them & asked to change my order to real wood...

Nah - It'd just add another 20 days + to the wait.

Could be reduced staff between Christmas and New Years. You are pretty excited, eh?

At the moment, I'm reduced to listening to a 10" pair of two-ways with a piezo tweeter that came from a yard sale - $20. So yes - I'm eager to get my new speakers. I should have taken the Axiom saleslady's advice and kept my M80s until the M100s arrived!

Whenever I have 'Traded Up', I've always kept mine until the new ones arrive.

Therefore, no withdrawal pains...

TAM

You're a wiser man than I, TAM!

And I heard my audio bud's V3 M-80s recently with a second-generation Emotiva XPA-1 power-amp pair. OH MY! That was a match made in heaven. It sounded like his M-80s had been paired with a (really good) pair of subwoofers. For his living room, it was the best I'd EVER heard his M-80s sound. His system doesn't even use a preamp - just DAC directly to the power amps.

Just thought that I'd mention it for anyone contemplating power amps for their Axioms. Synergy is a combination that's greater than its parts, and those M-80s with those Emotiva amps had it!

A decent power amp is a huge difference.
I have M80s myself, lucked out and found a pro amp{crest Audio}cheap. My audessey had set the M80s at full range. Which only just found out, couple days ago remodelling after Christmas.
Had no Idea just lots of clean powerful bass.

Hope your new 100s play as good with your amps as the M80s did.
Just give those beauties as much clean power as you can.

The wait will soon be over.

Cheers
Brendan

Hi Brendon -

The popular misconception is that "more power is better." I politely disagree. Sometimes, lots of power is called for (listening at auditorium levels or in an auditorium-sized room), but for smaller rooms & softer listening, not so.

In fact, I plan to test my theory when my speakers arrive. I have some 250-watt mono blocks and a 50-watt integrated from the same company. I'm eager to see if I can tell any difference.

Boom. You are absolutely correct in that you need enough power to fill your space at sound at the level you want and no more. Power calculators are a great tool and a real eye opener.

In my apartment, I'm using less than 5 watts most of the time and may have peak demand of 60is watts depending on the dynamics of the music. That is for an average sized apartment living room.

Now, if you are trying to crank it up in a 20 x 40 foot space, at distances of more than 10 feet from the speakers, you'll need quite a bit more power.

The great thing is that the M80s will handle whatever you can throw at them, well beyond reason.

Guys - The ADA-1000 is also quite the capable amp. Running it into the LFR-1100's (and M100's), it delivered a lot more horsepower in the bass department than did the Marantz 7008 receiver, which was measured at over 150 WPC into a 4 ohm load.

Current delivery and dynamic headroom are two overlooked aspects of an amp's performance. While the ADA-1000/LFR-1100 does not go EP800 deep, it delivers some serious deep bass with lots of power and control.

Anyone interested in this amp should call Debbie directly and ask her to work with you on price.

AVR power ratings are a joke. The majority of makers rate their power with one channel driven and only at 1,000 Hz. The power supplies of AVRs are the minimum possible to achieve the power ratings & have no additional current supply for 4 ohm loads. A properly designed amp has TWICE the wattage at 4 ohms than it does at 8. No AVR in the world can do that, and most of the carriage-trade he-man power amps can't either.

I just finished reviewing a 9-channel AVR (TOP of the manufacturer's line) and it only rated the power with two channels driven).

I've not looked at the Axiom amplifiers, but I will.

Link to the review?

The AVR Craig mentioned was tested in S&V.

Those words keep coming up again and again, and are total CR*P.

You can go through the list of exceptional high end amps that audiophiles would give their right arm for that don't double down on power when going from 8 to 4. Not to mention from 4 to 2ohms that is a mark just to be stable at it.

I gather from your words that Axiom's own amps are not properly designed as they don't double down once you start adding in more channels like an AVR does. Yes they can up the power at 2 channels but put and output for 5 or 7 channels in the same box and they simply run out of current. It would need a far bigger power supply and then you are getting into a 20amp circuit or possibly 2x15amp plugs. And for what? Power that you will never in your wildest dreams need on a constant or prolonged basis.

I am not disagreeing that MOST AV receivers are fictionally spec'd and have no means to drive the number of channels listed at a reference volume with 4ohm or even some 8ohm speakers attached. But don't use the word amp as that is rather too broad a term.

Thank you agree completely that AVR ratings are misleading. Don't think any do full power rating with more than 2 channels. Even my own pro AVR has many different Ohm ratings from 8 to 4 all 2 channel and 1.0% THD. { Teac Pro Tascam 7.2}

The addition of my power amp has added a lot of bass to my towers that wasn't there. To me it's fuller even at low volume.
My small PB1000s light doesn't even activate till over 50Dbs.

Hey Boom what are the dimensions of your room?

15x15?

You said earlier:
"The room is 15 feet wide. The couch puts me about two feet from the back wall, and the VP100 sits about two feet from the front. So I'm about 11 feet from the speaker."

The words might be crap; it's situation-dependent. It depends what you are listening to, how loud and on the specs of your system.

One use case is heavy metal music. This music has a low crest factor and if you listen to it loud, you might need an amp that is beefier than you thought. Say you buy an amp that is designed for 100W, 20dB crest factor continuous, into an 8 Ohm/45 deg phase angle load. If you listen to heavy metal music at 100W, with a speaker of that impedance, the amp might shut down or the output transistors may cook if their power dissipation exceeds their safe operating area.

Another use case is improper matching of components. If you plan on using that amp with M80s, you'll need a whopping 436W at maximum gain to maintain linearity. This calculation is based on Soundstage measurements of M80v2s which are around 3.5 Ohms/45 degree phase angle between 20 and 900 Hz. Above 900 Hz, they are almost purely resistive.

Depending on how the amp is designed, it might shut down or the output voltage will sag. The effect of sagging voltage is audible distortion.

The matching of speakers to an amplifier shouldn't be over-looked for those who like their audio loud. I'm quite satisfied with how well my M80s are matched with my Onk at "low" listening levels. When I turn them up however, the bass and mid-bass simply gives up. When I substitute my buddy's much cheaper KEFs, the bass is full, tight, punchy and controlled at that higher volume (the KEFs have other problems though so I'm not saying they're better).

Now is that an Axiom problem or an Onk problem? It's neither; it's a system problem. It's not even really a problem because I have no need, other than playing around, to turn them up that loud.

We're discussing multiple topics:

What power do the speakers need? It DOES depend on room size and on how loudly the listener wants to go. Big room OR more loudness = RAPIDLY increasing power demands.

What power do multi-channel amps need? In addition to the consideration above, it also depends on the type of demand placed on the actual speakers by the soundtrack. With all speakers set to "small," and a self-powered sub in the room, no - you don't need much power per channel. After all - Only the center and subs have any work to do - everything else is effects.

But for stereo-only listening (assuming a two channel amplifier) and with NO subs, then things become more demanding for the amplifier. If the speaker has a complicated & lossy crossover (think Thiel) then the amp must be more robust. If the speaker has low impedance (particularly over a broad section of the audible frequencies), then the amp must also be more robust.

Any stereo amp that can't double its wattage into half the impedance is limited by its power supply. For most speakers, and at lower volumes, this isn't an issue. In fact, Axiom speakers seem to have a benign impedance curve (rarely below 4 ohms and only for limited frequency ranges). But despite claims to the contrary, an amp that CAN double its output at half the measured impedance is an amp that is NOT limited by its power supply.

Note that this says NOTHING about how the amp sounds! Lots of "pro" amps can double their wattage into half the impedance, but they sound grainy, bright, and just plain ugly.

Best, to my mind and specifically for stereo listening, is to have a mono or stereo amp that has a muscular power supply.

Such an amp is gross overkill for multi-channel listening (which is why AVRs lack the capability - even on flagship models). Different purposes - different designs.

I don't put the Axiom amps down for not providing that much current for multi-channel designs - it isn't needed. I also note that the two-channel Axiom amp DOES double its wattage from 8 to 4 ohms.

Boom

You missed dynamics. Rock n roll has little, pop even less. You need about 3 db of headroom for most rock. Classical, on the other hand, requires about 10 db of headroom. That extra 7 db of headroom can add a LOT to the power requirements, particularly if you like to listen loud.

A proper power calculator, one that allows you to set the headroom, is an extremely useful tool in picking an amp/receiver for your space.

As mentioned before, I figured out that I would need no more than something like 68 watts to drive the M80s at reference (plenty loud for me) with 10db of headroom. I did the test and pushed them well beyond that using my avr without any change in the quality of the sound.

In the end, buy what you want and be happy, no matter what anyone else says.

If I remember correctly, the axiom multi channel amps have the ability to dynamically direct the power to the amps you are using, so you do not lose any of the power from the power section listening two channel.

I also missed speaker sensitivity, but y'all already know about that...

All multi-channel amps & receivers do the same. There's but one power supply, & the channel using the most power at any given time takes what it needs.

Well, I spoke with Debbie via phone yesterday regarding my December 15th order. I'd tried contacting Axiom via e-mail but without any response (!?).

They claim to be having quality control problems with their incoming raw materials, and hope to have my speakers shipped by the end of this week.

An audio amigo has offered to loan me a second pair of Emotiva XPA-1L mono block amps. So when (if) my speakers arrive, I'll be powering them with a total of four identical amps. We'll see if I can hear any difference...

Cheers - Boom

Sweeeeeet!

To cool,
hope it's not to much longer.

Can I share your review page with everyone Boom?

You may - but the review isn't yet started because despite being ordered on December 15th, my speakers haven't even shipped yet...

I've sent the following to Debbie via e-mail, and will call her tomorrow morning...

Hi Debbie -

Regarding my M-100 order, Transaction No. 10811947, I'd rather have speakers than not. If there are still problems with the Heartland Maple, then ship me whatever you have in stock (other than black). I'll even pay extra for a real wood pair (any in stock). I've paid you for a vinyl finish, but will be happy to take ANYTHING that you can ship NOW.

Finish - ANYTHING other than black
Grille options - ANY grille other than white
Terminals - Prefer bi-wire, but will take what's in stock
Blemish - OK with me - I'll take what's in stock

My goal is to get some speakers SHIPPED.

Please advise -

You're much more impatient than I.

I understand the frustration (I'm horrible at waiting for anything), but not so bad that I couldn't wait a few extra weeks to get what I really wanted in the first place.

All's well that ends well. Hopefully, my speakers ship tomorrow.

What I "really wanted" was a pair of M100s that I could use. Everything else was mostly trivial. The extra $1K for real wood & gloss finish is not of significant importance. But the Axiom factory shipped everything they had for the Holidays, and the cupboards are bare. So I'll get what I ordered. That's fine with me.

Boomer, it will be entirely worth any wait. Besides, you have no other options to get thi$ much for thi$ little. I have had my maple-veneered 100's for a bit over two years and I have completely forgotten about the 10 1/2 week wait for them by now.

Seriously, they are awesome! They'll get there. Best advice ever given to me by a boss: Keep your hopes high and your expectations low.

Have a blast!

Shipped today!

A generic boss, or specifically YOUR boss?

'Cuz, well....you know. There's probably a reason he had that philosophy.

Congrats Boom,
I'm shure the delay will have been worth it to have your own custom features.

My boss likes to quote Stalin:

"No man. No problem."

I hope that's the one you're leaving in Virginie! The one I was quoting is a woman. If you also are referring to a woman, 3,000 miles may not be enough.

Our boss is awesome.

My boss is awesomer.

My boss is an idiot (I'm self-employed)...

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/11piFQk34Vr_SSbhoxTblpxZF8VRBRsfegg/view?usp=sharing[/img]

He bought you all that stuff? Your boss is a very nice idiot.

Congrats Boom,
Your set looks great.

AND I wrote a review of my speakers:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/axiom-m100-floor-standing-speakers-review/

I read it and its good, nicely done.

Thank you kindly, Socketman! I'd love to review the EP-800 subs as well, but nobody's offered me the chance yet! LOL So for now, I'll have to live with what I've got.

Boom, you don't have to.

Here is my review:

My 2X HG Rosewood Veneer EP800s are simply wonderful in every way, ha!

TAM

Boomzilla,

Did you use any type of tuning or YPAO/Audyssey setup when listening to your axioms?

Good read Boom, Glad to hear they came to stay with you.
The pics are great really nice finish on those beauties.

Hi exlabdriver - THANKS for the link - I'm going there as soon as I finish this post!

Hi spiroh - I did try the YPAO on the Yamaha receiver with the M-100s, and (for my room) it didn't do much. This has been my experience with ALL room correction systems I've tried (including Denon's, Yamaha's, and Emotiva's). Don't know why, but every one I've tried chops the bass significantly and (often) tells me that one or more of my speakers are out of phase (they aren't). So in general, I run without any room correction at all.

And an additional question for youse guys - I really like the gloss finish on the wooden veneer Axioms, but mine are vinyl wrap. Is there anything I can put on the vinyl that will significantly increase the gloss? I thought of vinyl floor polish, auto detailing products, and maybe even a polyurethane gloss coat. Has anyone else tried anything to increase the gloss of Axiom's vinyl wrap?

OK, TAM - Trick! No link at all - just a single sentence review! Apparently, brevity is not only the soul of lingerie, but also of audio reviews? LOL

Boom. as a test I did spray a small portion of my vp100 with automotive clear . The clear did stick but because the vinyl is so coarse there was no appreciable difference in the shine. In the end I stripped all the vinyl ( no small task) and veneered all my speakers and sprayed them with polyurethane automotive clear coat. I did 2 x M80's, 2 x QS 8's , 2 x M2's and a VP 100. On the QS8's I did not remove the vinyl and veneer right over it , so far so good. Some one else here has veneered over the vinyl as well. Its a huge job and if you not into it I don't suggest doing it.

Richard

Nope - veneering over (or without) vinyl isn't on my "to do" list (now or ever). So far, I've tried (inconspicuous patches on the back) both a vinyl floor polish and an auto detailing (Turtle Wax) product. My results were as yours - went on fine, but no appreciable change to gloss of the vinyl. Next, I'll get a polyurethane and apply to a tiny patch on the bottom of a speaker. Even if it wrinkles the vinyl, no harm done...

My best estimate at this time is that if I want a piano finish, I need to trade in again & get the real wood (sigh).

I tried some 'Zymol' vinyl protectant (intended for auto interiors I think) on my M2s & EP-400s.

It temporarily gave them a wet/shiny look that was quite pleasing; however, as it evaporates away, it returns to the normal finish. I've been too lazy to keep redoing it.

In order to roughly match my HG Rosewood EP-800s, I bit the bullet & 'traded up' my black vinyl M22s to HG Rosewood. Rosewood of course is quite expensive both in veneer material plus the labour involved with a month of applying the multi coats of clear coat.

Worth it in the end though IMO...

TAM

Some suggestions:

If oil-based poly doesn't cause the vinyl to separate from the MDF (it shouldn't, but...), wash it with a degreaser and THOROUGHLY rinse and dry it. Apply three coats of poly, sanding between coats. You could also choose a wipe-on poly. It's thinner and dries to recoat way faster. You're doing speakers, not a table top, so you don't need the extra body of regular poly.

You can use semi- or full gloss. After the final coat is thoroughly dry, apply a real furniture polish (like Briwax, not bowling alley wax) and rub out any nibs with 0000 steel wool or the GRAY colored plastic equivalent. Buff it within an inch of its life, or your until arm falls off and there you go. (Seriously, a folded up cotton rag under a pad or circular sander works great and fast.)

Or...

If the ambering that will happen with the oil is not to your liking (it should make the plastic look realer, actually), then you can use a water-borne or water-based poly. You NEED to do a bottom test, because, though it dries water white (clear), it can impart a really unpleasant bluishiness to some wood colors.

A great wipe-on acrylic poly is Rockler Woodworking's "Wundercoat." I once used it on mission-stained oak and it did NOT leave a blue cast. Way, way fast and easy and not smelly, and clean-up at the sink w/soap. Nicer.

Do NOT use minwax acrylic products. They suck. Oil's fine. All really decent (still not as durable, ever) acrylic finishes cost over $100 Ga. If you insist, start with Campbell Finishes or General Finishes. Problem with all of them, is that to sand the applicator marks out, you have to sand off most of the coat you just put on. Wipe-on is formulated NOT to do that.

Then there's the chicken's way out of everything, that I call "spraying." The most beautiful pieces of art furniture you will ever see do not employ sprayed finishes.

If you ever need to repeat any of this, you can tell 'em an old fart who does everything by-the-(old) book told you.

I DO own a 4-stage HVLP system, and it was mfgd. in Canada, so don't even go there.

Jeez, I guess I should have talked to you before buying my HVLP sprayer last week. So you could tell me I NEED one (but I suck because I bought one!)

To get that piano finish would require multiple coats of polyurethane with sanding between every second coat until the rough surface is filled in. I like spraying single panel auto clear coat because its only about 10 mins between coats on a hot day and 30 mins and you can wet sand. I still have 2 QS4's that need veneering , I may try some clear just for the sake of trying it.

OK - I'm NOT doing any polyurethane - My better half is sensitive to smells...

Organic products, for the most part, she can stand. So (counterintuitive, I know) would it be feasible to wipe on glossy tung oil? I've used it on wood furniture without issue, so maybe on top of the vinyl as well? It forms its own surface, and when new oil is applied over the old, then it (like polyurethane) partially melts the previous surface to adhere.

Multiple thin coats might form a glossy finish (but without being able to soak into the surface, it might just stay tacky)?

The Rockler product might be the only feasible synthetic option provided it truly is "low odor."

I used lemon oil on my M80's before I put on veneer.I also used it on my HPM 900,s for over 20yrs with no ill effects on the vinyl. it made them look much nicer imho, was a weekend ritual though.

Richard

That sounds like the idea I'd go with first! You could also just rub on furniture wax directly, then buff

Yes, you should have. I would have sold mine to you for "such a deal, you can't even believe." I bought it to paint over 200 serpentine balusters in a 3-story high elliptical entryway on Beacon Hill. It paid for itself (and then some) in one day.

Odd that the company name is Fuji, but it came from Canada. I didn't really know any Canadians at the time, so I had no reason to be suspicious.

But seriously, I hope you have fun with it, ya lazy, traditionless bastard.

I almost bought a Fuji. Great reputation! Yours was probably gunked up with sarcasm, though.

I haven't used it enough for my seething contempt to affect it.

How much different does an "on wall" Axiom center sound than their stand-mounted units? I've owned the VP180 (version 3?) and a VP-100 (version 4) before and the latter better matched my main speakers. But the current equipment configuration precludes the use of any center at ear level. Therefore, I'm thinking of mounting the center on the wall above the TV. This location has the advantages of being perfectly centered for all viewers, and of providing minimum interference when listening to straight stereo.

So my options are VP-100 on wall or VP-150 on wall. I don't play movies loudly, so either should provide suitable service. I also have a good pair of subs that can pick up the slack in the bass. So recommendations?

Problem solved. The Best Buy boys are coming Wednesday to mount the TV on the wall. That leaves the top of the equipment rack open for a center. Now the BIG question - VP 100, 150, or 180?

How about a 160?

A more traditional driver placement on the front baffle giving great sound, even off axis...

TAM

The 160 and 180 would compliment your 100s better, closer sound output to the 100s

160 all the way!

Digging my 160

I've been down that road before. In my room, the VP 100 beats all its bigger brothers. YMMV

Interesting - I found the complete opposite...

TAM

Hi TAM - Apparently, many do. I think that the major difference is that we don't listen loudly at all. That makes the VP-100 "just right."

Well, through inattention I accidentally ordered a V3 VP-100 instead of a V4. Until my buddy pointed it out to me, I heard nothing amiss. So all's well that ends well!

OK - Having sprung for the front 3 Axiom speakers, would I hear any significant difference by going to the Axiom surrounds too?

From a matching perspective (ie having the same vendor in all positions) I would say "not that much difference". What makes the difference IMO is that the QS speakers seem to do a better job of hiding the fact that there is a speaker "over there" if you don't have room to put them a fair distance (say 8-10 feet or more) from the listening positions.

So if your room is really big you can probably put pretty much anything in and have it sound decent; if you need to sit near the surrounds then I don't think anyone has found anything better than the QS's yet.

Disclaimer - I have only listened to QS8s, not 4's.